Great Leather!

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
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janne_melkersson
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Re: Great Leather!

#601 Post by janne_melkersson »

DW et all,

I have never blocked a whole cut before and I don't know how to do it. I can see it's pros when it is about lasting becasue a wholecut where the patterns is made from a mean forme could be hard to last.

The whole cuts patterns I make are not much wider then a regular shoe pattern would it be an Oxford or a Derby as you can see on the photo.
15968.jpg

If you have a shoe pattern it is easy to adjust it to a wholecut just by lowering the counter about half the distance to the crease line. If you lower it to much then it will be as wide as DW mentioned. The vamp of the wholecut pattern is the same as on the shoe pattern only the counter will be changed

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Re: Great Leather!

#602 Post by courtney »

has anyone used Wickett and craig skirting?

I have read comments on other forums saying it is too soft for what they are using it for (saddles)
but I'm thinking that would be a plus for me.

I am not really thinking of using it for insoles, I have been having a bad time making studded belts with import shoulders that are so hard the studs keep bending, so I was hoping this would be the stuff.

I know alot of you guys have experience with all kinds of leather making, so any help appreciated.

The studs glide right through the warkov safeer but im not using that up for my belts!

Courtney

(Message edited by courtney on April 10, 2013)
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Re: Great Leather!

#603 Post by paul »

Courtney,

I use WC for belts and have had very good feedback on how they feel and hold up. Besides, I love the deep Russet colour of the skirting leather.

It is softer than some skirting leathers I've worked with before, But once it's been cased, worked, edges slicked, oiled and top coated it's plenty firm.

I've recently done a couple of jobs using spots and studs, and it worked fine. I pre-hole them, so that would make a difference in bending prongs.

Furthermore, I have made a couple of pair using it for insoles. I liked it. But I am very selective on who and when I do, as I'm not real sure of it over 5-10 years of wear. But for the elderly folks I've made boots for it's been very good.

You might also like their Harness leather for spots and studs.

Best, Paul
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Re: Great Leather!

#604 Post by courtney »

Thanks Paul,

so did you actually inseam them? what makes you wonder about durability?

I dont know about the harness leather, I think thats already dyed right?

What makes a leather soft and open like the Warkov Safeer? or dense and hard like my import shoulder?

I know everyone has been looking for good insole leather since ive been on this forum and even though im talking about belts i guess its pretty much the same deal?

Any other veg tan leathers that might not be so hard and dense?

Courtney
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Re: Great Leather!

#605 Post by paul »

Yes Courtney, they inseamed beautifully.

I just have some doubt because they're kind of slick. And I don't know why. A conversation with WC would no doubt reveal the cause. Something I ought to do.

Yes WC harness leather is already dyed, but it's available in Black, Brown and Saddle.

Someone who knows tanning would have to answer your questions about why, But I do know Warkov Safeer gets firmer after it's cased and molded on the last. Except for work boots, I think it's perfect leather for insoles. I have no complaints with it.

If you're looking for belt leather, many people like double shoulders. Herman Oak is a big favorite, though I don't think they do double shoulders.

You have a long career ahead of you, try different ones and find what you like.

Regards,
Paul
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Re: Great Leather!

#606 Post by dw »

The only thing I would caution is that in a typical WC skirting, you're still looking at the densest and shortest fibers of the hide.

I obtained a couple of insole sized pieces of what I thought was WC from a friend of mine and although it was no softer than the softest of the Warkov-Safeer insole shoulders it wasn't any firmer either. And worse, after testing it, I thought that it wasn't going to be strong enough to hold closely spaced stitches.

We tend to think of prime leather as being, well, prime...for any application. But it ain't so.

For inseaming...almost paradoxically since the inseam is the backbone of the shoe...we want relatively loosely packed fibers and long fibers. The loose fibers ensure a good footbed and the long fibers ensure that the stitches can be placed closely and secured tightly without breaching the holdfast.

Traditionally, insoles generally came from shoulder (or sometimes belly) where both of those characteristics apply.

Personally, I think I would be happier and more confidant with a Warkov-Safeer shoulder than a WC skirting side.

And did I mention that Maverick leather is getting in some Mexican shoulders that look good esp. if you're not ready to commit to Baker?

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Re: Great Leather!

#607 Post by tmattimore »

I used to do contract work for a company that made saddle and windshield bags for Harley. I cut about 100 sides a week of Wickett skirting and bridle. We installed a few millon spots rivets and other decorations in it. I have made about 5000 pair of boots using Wickett skirting for insoles. I use their bridle and harness leather split to as thin as 3 oz and on an average 6oz. I have had them emboss it with a pebble grain. In over 20 years of using their leather I have never had a single product returned for poor leather quality. I also routinely repair shoes I made that are over 6 years old. I have crimped hundreds of one piece front boots using skirting that has been split and milled to my specs. Not one has ripped.
Other opinions may vary but if Wickett ever closes I will too.
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Re: Great Leather!

#608 Post by dw »

You're right. And I should have given those WC insoles a fair chance.

But I didn't. And the reason I didn't was I just couldn't see going back.

When I started in this business, I was using insoles cut from bends. Admittedly, after the first five years I graduated to insoles cut from the belly side of the bend...not the actual belly, mind you, that had already been trimmed off.

And they worked...but so did I!!

Some years later Al Saguto paid me a visit at my downtown shop and was absolutely astonished at how hard I was working to inseam a pair of boots.

He told me...more than showed me (because neither of us had insole shoulders within hand's reach) that I needed to switch. That inseaming would be significantly easier, that my stitches would hold better, and that the boots would be more comfortable.

I took him on faith despite him being ten years younger than I am and not really doing the same kind of work. And I've never looked back--best advice I was ever given.

Just goes to show who you can learn from if you just get out of your own way.

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Re: Great Leather!

#609 Post by lancepryor »

A couple of thoughts/observations/questions.

First, as I posted in February, I would encourage everyone to consider ordering insole strips from Baker if you are going to be making hand-made shoes or boots. I think this leather is generally considered the best insole leather still available. It isn't that expensive! In fact, based on my experience, it is as cheap to get from Baker in the US as what the English bespoke firms have to pay, because they pay a 20% value added tax and we don't; that is more than the postage cost from the UK to the US. (FWIW, they also sell other veg tanned leather that can be used for belts.) I started out with the Mexican leather for insoles; in my experience, there was NO comparison. The Bakers was better for inseaming, was faster to pre-hole, and it is easier to cut. So, any savings on the leather was more than offset by time savings using Bakers. I just don't understand, if you value your time at all and/or if you take pride in your work, why you wouldn't just use Bakers. I'm as frugal (or cheap) as they come, but this is one area where being penny-wise is also being pound-foolish. I wouldn't necessarily say the same about outsole leather, stiffener leather, etc., but for insoles, I firmly believe it to be the case. Seriously, would anyone who cares about their product or the craft really try to find cheaper (inferior) insole leather to cut the cost of your insoles from $20/pair, which is about what the Baker leather costs delivered to your door? How much are you going to save -- $10/pair? $15 (I doubt it)? If you have 20, 30, 40 (or more) hours of you blood, sweat, and tears, going into a pair of shoes or boots, is that truly a sensible choice?

Nevertheless, on the topic of domestic leather, Wickett & Craig do sell bellies; also, Springfield Leather (and perhaps others) sell Hermann Oak bellies at a pretty cheap price. I've used it for fitter insoles, and I might try inseaming it just out of curiosity. Anyone have any experience with this?

Just my 2 cents worth.

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Re: Great Leather!

#610 Post by dw »

Lance,
Seriously, would anyone who cares about their product or the craft really try to find cheaper (inferior) insole leather to cut the cost of your insoles from $20/pair, which is about what the Baker leather costs delivered to your door? How much are you going to save -- $10/pair? $15 (I doubt it)? If you have 20, 30, 40 (or more) hours of you blood, sweat, and tears, going into a pair of shoes or boots, is that truly a sensible choice?


You're right in every respect...except one...it is not a sensible choice--but you're the only one who can reliably and readily get Baker products. Image

The next time you order I'm in, please...(although Jake and I thought we had an order on tap months and months and months (years?) ago).

If you ever get tired of making shoes, become the US rep for Baker and I'll be a lifelong, loyal (exclusively) customer.

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Re: Great Leather!

#611 Post by paul »

I also use WC bellies for insoles for my fitters. I even use it for counters on them. I have WC in the shop all the time for belts and cases and love it all around.
I have inseamed with it, as I mentioned previously, and feel confident about the stitch. After all saddle makers use it and stitch it at 6 spi. There's much more stress on that than 3 spi for an inseam.
I just don't know about its slipperiness.
Is that a wax Tom?
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Re: Great Leather!

#612 Post by sorrell »

I have some possible good news on the topic of insoles.

In March I had the opportunity to tour the Rendenbach tannery in Germany. A couple of years ago Hans Rendenbach sent me an insole shoulder to try. Unfortunately, I hated it. It was hard and dense and horrible to inseam.

While touring the tannery we went through a room where the leather was pressed with a giant roller with 4 tons of pressure. Our guide mentioned that pressing the leather compresses the fibers and makes a better quality leather. I realized at that point that's what was wrong with the bend they sent me--it had been compressed.

After the tour we got to hang out in Hans' office and visit and he indicated that he really wanted our feedback about how to improve their leather and what we wanted from their leather. I immediately told him the story of the bend he'd sent and explained why compressing insoles is not the best choice. He understood, and he took me down to a room of leather and cut me off a huge sample of an insole shoulder that WASN'T compressed.

I'll be cutting insoles from it next week and I'll let you know. Right now I've only trimmed the edge with a lip knife and wet the edge and tried putting a curved awl through it. Both of those things went great. I had another boot maker in my shop and I gave him an awl and had him try it. I practically had drool on the leather after he got through with it. It feels like it's going to be really wonderful. Again, I haven't done an actual insole yet but at this point I like the feel of it better than Baker.

I will be posting again about it this week. I anyone wants a small scrap of what's left after I cut insoles just so you can feel it and try putting an awl through it, send me an email with your address. My email is customboots@aol.com

If we all like this we will be able to get it in the States. Mark Staton carries Rendenbach and we can get it through him.

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Re: Great Leather!

#613 Post by das »

Lisa,

That's great news, but I'm curious. You said Rendenbach offered you "bend" leather for insoles? Insoles should be made from the more pliable-but-thick shoulder of the hide, not rolled, and not bends--it's too short fibered and stiff. Rendenbach is also tanned with Valona (acorn caps), which is traditionally German, but tends to make pretty hard, flinty leather that cracks.

If you can check with them that this non-rolled insoling is shoulder rather than bends, that would be great.
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Re: Great Leather!

#614 Post by sorrell »

DW,
I'm sorry, I misspoke. Both the original piece of leather that I disliked and the samples he gave me were from insole shoulders.

I was planning to ask that question at the tannery but didn't have to. The first room we visited had the raw hides laid out and the guide showed us where they cut the sole bends, and the insole shoulders, and the belly strips. They really are insole shoulders.

Lisa
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Re: Great Leather!

#615 Post by dw »

Lisa,
DW,
I'm sorry, I misspoke. Both the original piece of leather that I disliked and the samples he gave me were from insole shoulders.


I know I'm an easy target Image but that was Al who asked about whether it was a bend or a shoulder.

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Re: Great Leather!

#616 Post by sorrell »

Good gravy, I'm obviously still asleep this morning!

Al, DW, and all,
They really are insole shoulders.

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Re: Great Leather!

#617 Post by das »

Lisa,

Thanks! It’s been a busy morning here and I may have not been reading carefully enough. Sorry.
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Re: Great Leather!

#618 Post by dearbone »

Rolling sole-leather is done to fill the spaces between the fibres that shrunk a little after coming out of the pits to air dry them, here where the colour might change and shrinkage will take place and the spaces between the fibres less filled,these spaces are contain "tanno-gelatine and other gummy nature from the tanning agent while the leather in lay-aways condition and depending on how mush the fibres have been filled at this stage will render the leather more or less easy to be saturated between the fibres the rolling is done to compress the fibres after shrinkage, but the spaces between the fibres are filled with tanno gelatine, I let the old wise cordwainer finish the rest.

" It being hardly possible to tan leather which after drying will be perfectly filled, recourse is had to another method of securing perfectly filled spaces, viz. the size of the spaces is reduced by a process of comperion. this compression , however, can only be accoplished under certain condition. when the leather is compressed the shape of the spaced between the fibres will be altered, but the tanno-gelatine while dry cannot adapt itself to the shape of the reduced spaces, it being hard and brittle; it also has an irregular form with many keen edges, therefore, being much harder then the fibres, any attempt to compress the leather results in the fibres being bruised and weakened and the brittle tanno-gelatine possibly reduced to powder.
The tanno-gelatine must be brought to a plastic condition before the leather can be compressed; it would than adapt itself to the altered shape of the spaces. the first thing necessary is to wet the leather, and this must be carefully done or it will be stained.
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Re: Great Leather!

#619 Post by janne_melkersson »

Lisa, I cut an insole of the same leather you got from Rendenbach since Carina at Framåt Stockholm got a piece of it too. I find it hard to cut but easy to work with from the fleshside making holdfasts and prepunching. Their old insole leather is hard to work with but this is promissing.
If they don't make it then I only know of two options on this side of the pond either Bakers or Garat which both are flexible compare to Rendenbach old stuff.
Bakers don't need a pesentation here but check Garats stuff at http://www.tannerie-garat.com/sole-leather
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Re: Great Leather!

#620 Post by sorrell »

Janne,
I have a sample of the Garats to try also.

I find the Baker leather to be hard to cut also, so if that is the only issue I won't mind.

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Re: Great Leather!

#621 Post by das »

There’s a “cran” (insider technical tip) here to trenching (cutting) an insole shoulder up into insoles. You have to book-match insole pairs as you cut, because the shoulder varies in thickness, firmness and texture so much. They do get hard and tough to cut close to the spine, but you should avoid the spine anyway for insoles (use it for other parts—beaten-out hard it makes good shank-pieces).

Lay your insole shoulder on the floor, an get a median or largish size last for the work you have to do, or anticipate doing, and a piece of chalk. Starting at the outside (belly-flanky) edges, put the last on the extreme right (toe/heel aligned roughly head/tail) and chalk around it roughly, not left or right shaping. Then move the last to the same place on the left and chalk around. Number that pair #1. Then, chalk off pair #2, #3, etc. working inward to the spine, until you have the whole shoulder marked out and then cut them all out, inspect, and keep sorted by numbered pairs until needed. Some pairs will be thin and flanky, others thick and firm, but the important thing is the pairs match. I usually get 9+ pairs out of one Baker’s shoulder, plus a 3” to 4” spine strip out of the very middle.

Trenching all at one time makes them easier to then flesh, buff the grain off, tallow, or whatever other prep you like to do before blocking them to the last for actual use.

Trenching shoulders into rough-cut pairs is very economical too—more economical than just cutting one pair at a time as needed, because you can lay them out first with chalk, adjusting and wedging more onto the leather to be sure you’re getting the best yield from the shoulder.
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Re: Great Leather!

#622 Post by dw »

Al,

If the insole is aligned with the spine, you will invariably be forced to cut the insole with fat wrinkles running across the insole. These, in turn will affect the way...and the where...that the insole flexes underfoot.

I'm not questioning your approach...I know it is the traditional way, just as cutting the uppers with the stretch running across the shoe is Traditional in English shoemaking...but I have often wondered about this.

I have a Morton's neuroma and am fairly certain that if the insole were prone to flex slightly out of position relative to the way my foot wants to flex, it would aggravate that condition. I can almost see the shoe wanting to flex as if it were a size six or a size eight rather than a true seven.

I would welcome your thoughts on this because it has always made me uneasy.

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Re: Great Leather!

#623 Post by das »

DW,

Good observation. Although I have not encountered any significant fat wrinkles in Baker’s shoulder trenched this way, the first thing that springs to mind on the flex issue is: we want to engineer the shoe or boot to flex only across the joint-line/thread-line—the best way I’ve found to control this is by careful design and placement of the shank-piece (hard leather) to enforce rigidity through the midfoot-to-seat area. Or to put it another way, where the bottoms flex, IMO, is more a function of where you end your shank-piece, than an inconvenient wrinkle in the insole hopefully.

Rees (1813) clearly shows clicking vamps toe-to-spine/belly, quarters lengthways head-to-tail, and I’ve never had any problems cutting them in that orientation. This way the quarters are less apt to elongate unequally during lasting (leads to crooked uppers, back-seam off center, etc.), and any excess stretch in the vamp can easily be taken out when lasting the toe.

I’m a fan of “hoisted”/”horsing” (lasting) anyway, often wet (stout waxed-calf, unlined), where I last the toe partway with the last exposed about ¾” at the seat, then hammer the last down into the uppers to get a good transverse line of tension (“clip”) in the quarters all the way to the sides of the vamp toe, so the quarters clip nicely under the ankle, never sitting loose once the last has been slipped. Used to lasting the historical stuff, again stout un-lined waxed calf mostly, but I have carried the technique over to more modern lined boots and shoes with good result too—at least no disadvantages that I’ve noticed. Besides, it’s habit now ;&#62Image
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Re: Great Leather!

#624 Post by dw »

Al,

Thanks for that...I have talked to some people who are far more conversant with contemporary English methods than I'll ever be and I've come away with the understanding that the English approach is to click for stretch across the vamps. Maybe I am misinformed or simply didn't understand.

As far as all that goes, I always hoist too. And I always wet or at least spritz. There's nothing like a tight topline.

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Re: Great Leather!

#625 Post by das »

“There's nothing like a tight topline.”

You can say that again.
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