Inseaming Awls

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farmerfalconer
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Re: Inseaming Awls

#51 Post by farmerfalconer » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:06 pm

Mr. Adams are you saying you will sell them for 46 cents an awl plus shipping? If so Ill take some. would there be a minimum order?

PS sorry about not getting back to you about the edge irons. I didnt want to order the wrong thing so I just made my ownImage

Thanks,
Cody

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#52 Post by farmerfalconer » Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:08 pm

Does anyone know where I can get high carbon steel in 1/8 inch thickness for making awls? I certainly cant find it at lowes.

Cody

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#53 Post by lancepryor » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:12 pm

Cody:

I don't know if this will suit, but IIRC Dick Anderson uses some high speed steel drill blanks or rods, available from places like MSC. You need to know how to correctly temper the steel to get the characteristics you want (in addition to shaping the rod to the desired shape).

Here is an example http://www1.mscdirect.com/eCommerce/NavigationServlet/Raw-Materials/Metals/Steel /Drill-Rod/Air-Oil-Water-Hardening-Drill-Rods/_/N-77e51?cm_re=Category-_-BodyLin k-_-Air%2c+Oil+%26+Water+Hardening+Drill+Rods

Available in a wide variety of diameters.

Lance

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#54 Post by johnl » Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:40 pm

Cody, As I said in my other post, I would try music wire- a high cabon spring steel.
Available many places on the web. Here is one place.
http://www.hyatts.com/art/1-8in-music-wire-36in-X75010
For info on annealing it, working it, and then reharding and tempering, try going the the practical machinist web site and asking questions. Lots of guys there that really know their stuff.
John L

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#55 Post by bdadamovicz » Tue Jan 08, 2013 9:28 pm

I'm not saying that the music wire can't be used but it will be harder to heat treat. Any metal that you buy you will want to have certain properties as to how much spring it can take before it will break. This will be imparted by the heat treatment and the alloy of the metal itself.

Now the nice thing about going onto MSC is you will know exactly what the alloy is. This will tell you what elements are in the metal. Those elements will give it its spring, hardness capability, edge holding capability, and other aspects. With an awl the hardness and the edge holding are going to be about the same thing due to the design (to be simple). By knowing what the alloy is there will be directions on how to heat treat it. That being said heat treating is an art, just ask the many here that have tried to make awls and broken them quickly.

There is something of a trick I learned in the machine or metal shop years ago I called chasing the tip. With this method you started heating the body of your tool until it was a dull red-orange and brought that color up to the tip being careful not to overheat. At this point you would dunk in you fluid (oil, water, or what the mix may be)after sufficiently cooled (where you could handle it barehanded) the part would be cleaned and baked at something like 500F for 1.5-2 hours then left to air cool to the touch and then repeat that cycle usually twice more. Granted this wasn't for awls but it is a pretty typical heat treatment method for many small tools such as engraving chisels.

I spent 5 years in two machine shops before I joined the Army and I know a few things but there are guys out there that know loads. Just do your research and think safe and you should be alright.

BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#56 Post by bdadamovicz » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:11 pm

I had to have a look at the drill rods, I couldn't stay away. Out of the two that are really in a decent price range the W1 is the better steel for an awl in my opinion. Manganese (Mn)imparts a lot of hardness and makes a metal a bit less flexible, thus more brittle. It can be harder to heat treat because of what it likes to do to the structure of the steel. I will of course bow to those that make awls, I'm just giving an opinion from making other tools. I would however prefer the O1 for those little chisels I was speaking of before, also on another note files are commonly made of O series steels.

BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#57 Post by bdadamovicz » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:12 pm

Ok everybody I've gone through the list of all the people that sent me messages wanting awls. I can't seem to shake the feeling that I'm missing somebody big. Right now I have 2 of 5 boxes accounted for and I thought somebody else wanted half a box. Then there are about 5 people that either haven't given me a number or only want about 5. If I missed you let me know or if you want to jump in let me know. As of right now there are Definitely 100 of the 250 left so there are plenty if I missed you somehow or if you want to get in.

BDA

chuck_deats

Re: Inseaming Awls

#58 Post by chuck_deats » Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:25 am

Made a comment in the Haft section. Get O-1 drill rod at the local Fastenal store. Found 500 deg. a little too brittle for awls, closer to 700 or a blue color. Dick Anderson's awls are excellent.
Chuck

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#59 Post by farmerfalconer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:42 pm

Thanks for the info. I'll probably order some of that music wire to try. I do some blacksmithing and have a coal forge so heating and bending are no problem. I figured I would shape them, anneal, and the file to almost the final point. Then heat up to cherry red(past magnetic) and quench just the first 1.5 inch or so. after that draw a temper to straw at the tip and blue from there back. if anyone else is interested the book "50 Dollar Knife Shop" by Wayne Goddard is excellent and has a lot on heat treating.

Mr. Adams,
Yeah I figured I would round up too. I'm not that cheapImage I paid 9 bucks for a similar awl the other day so I see the value. In the end would I be paying you or the guy in germany and what would shipping be? Never bought anything through here or ebay before so bear with me...


Thanks again,
Cody

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#60 Post by farmerfalconer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:47 pm

Mr. Adams,
I'll take 10 if you can do that.

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#61 Post by admin » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:36 pm

So far, I think this has remained within bounds but I remind all members of this forum that business transaction are better dealt with off line or in private emails.

And that quoting prices for personal profit or that accrue or seem to accrue directly to the person selling an item is explicitly forbidden.

In my judgement this conversation is skirting the limits. Take it private, guys, or I will have to delete...with reckless abandon.

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#62 Post by farmerfalconer » Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:50 pm

Just ordered some 1/8inch drill rod from MSC. Thanks Lance.

Mr. Emmett,
Sorry about that. Ill keep it to private msgs from now on.

Cody

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#63 Post by bdadamovicz » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:47 am

Hi all sorry I didn't get back yesterday, I spent part of the afternoon up until about midnight in the hospital due to a head/neck injury from late November acting up badly. I'm going to list below the names of everybody that wanted some awls and how many. I hope you don't mind but this is about the best way I can think of to chick my bookkeeping.

Alasdair 1bx of 50
Georgene 1bx of 50
Zach.............20
Paul K...........12
Lance............10
Edie.............??
Paul O...........25
John L...........12
Athan............20
Casey.............5
Cody.............10
Total...........209 of 250

Let me know if you want in or want more as there are a few unspoken for.

BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#64 Post by bdadamovicz » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:17 am

Another 25 claimed, so 234 of 250 and still waiting for how many Eddie wants.

Wow I didn't think that all 250 would go quite that quick. I thought I'd be sitting on a box or so.

BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#65 Post by bdadamovicz » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:55 am

All awls accounted for. If there is more interest I can ask about another box let me know ASAP and I'll get to it. Otherwise I messaged with the seller today and I should have the invoice soon.

BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#66 Post by farmerfalconer » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:21 pm

I just got the O-1 drill rod in the mail. It shipped fine. One question I have for you machinist fellers though.
O-1 means that i quench it in oil right? Any oil work (like used motor oil?) And do I just heat it up to where it is non magnetic b4 quenching(the curie point) ? Also are tempering colors going to be any different for an oil hardening as opposed to say, water? What i mean is if i draw a straw temper on w-1 will it be the same hardness as a straw on o-1?
Thanks a lot,
Cody

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#67 Post by bdadamovicz » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:34 pm

Cody this should help: http://buffaloprecision.com/data_sheets/DSO1TSbpp.pdf

I would use clean oil, some people use synthetic since it doesn't burn at as high a temp. Used oil is considered a no no because of the impurities. As I remember the heat stated on that data sheet should be a bit above nonmagnetic.

Take care with this O1 it likes to temper hard because of the Manganese. That data sheet is a good thing and can help you more than you think, we use them all the time in the machine shop.


Oh and regarding the straw temper on a W1 versus O1, it should be a bit different. O1 gets much harder much easier than W1 and is not nearly as flexible. As I said before companies like to make files out of Oseries steel, and files are routinely around 66-68R

BDA

(Message edited by bdadamovicz on January 11, 2013)

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#68 Post by farmerfalconer » Fri Jan 11, 2013 7:42 pm

Great thanks! Ill let you know how it turns out.

Cody

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#69 Post by bdadamovicz » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:11 pm

I still haven't received an invoice from the man with the awls yet. He told me everything was still on last Friday but I haven't heard from him since. I was in a little bit of an accident on Sunday night so have been a bit preoccupied but will get back on top of this buy right away.

BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#70 Post by farmerfalconer » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:07 pm

Well, I got one inseaming and a pegging awl done.
I think I need to work on my tempering job as it (the inseaming awl) bends a little if I put to much pressure on it.
Its about 2.7 mm thick at max insertion and it is
O in cross section. The handle is something I picked up at a salvage yard and its pretty cruddy and way to small.
15125.jpg

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#71 Post by farmerfalconer » Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:12 pm

oops sorry.

Here goes again.
15127.jpg

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#72 Post by bdadamovicz » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:11 pm

Alright guys and gals. I finally received billing info from the man with the awls the other day and have paid him via paypal. I haven't yet received the email stating that the payment has been received or that the package has shipped but we should still be on. Once I get notice of shipment I'll send out a bill to everybody.

To make things easier if you were on the list could you send me an email and I'll send you a reply with the total with shipping and all that good stuff. Also at that point we can let me know if you want to pay by money order or paypal.

bd.adamovicz@gmail.com

Thanks,
BDA

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#73 Post by dmcharg » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:24 pm

G'day Everyone,
I regularly make my own awls using music wire, which you can get at model aeroplane shops in a huge range of diameters (I think it's K&S brand). Some of these can be very hard straight from the shop so annealing is in order. I put grooves in one of my files Image of parallel wire. File a long taper into the remaining wire bringing the point to a size relevant to the size tip you want. Polish up with emery papers, while it's still spinning in the drill, working your way down the grits until you have a high degree of finish.

Then it's heat and shape to your requirements. I've found a pencil torch directed just above your 'anvil' (I use a smoothed up end of an old pick to get my curves) works well as the wire goes cold in a couple of seconds.

File/sand in the shape and edge of the awl before hardening.

Red heat and quench, hand polish the end with emery paper. Gently apply heat towards the middle/back half of awl, constantly moving the heat source, watching the temper colours.
Sorry, I'm at the library and can't remember the order of the colours. You want to avoid sudden changes in colour along the awl. Quench. Hand polish and finish sharpening.

Hope this has been interesting and helpful.
15143.jpg


Cheers
Duncan

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#74 Post by dmcharg » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:29 pm

Sorry, the winking smily face next to the 1/4" was supposed to be a close bracket !

DM

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Re: Inseaming Awls

#75 Post by farmerfalconer » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:18 pm

Hi Duncan,

Thanks for the info,
Nice awls. I made on just the way you said and so far I like it. I made it a little soft in the bend area so I occasionally have to bend it back to shape.
I dont have a lathe so the woodworker at Old Salem is going to turn 3 hafts for me in exchange for a leather briefcase made for his laptop.

Thanks again,
cody

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