The Crispin Colloquy

First i want to wish my Canadian friends, A happy Thanks giving Monday.
Above are couple of tools, i hardy see in books, The one on the left is my notching tool,i inherited from a retired pattern maker,i use it for brogue shoes and it cuts well with some human power, The one on the right is a scraper,i had for many years,but never used,after i saw Mack's scrapers,i sharpened the the blade and man it now shaves sole leather edges like the carpenter wood plain takes thin slices of wood,i will try it on real shoe soon.

regards Nasser

I think I have a case of tool envy

DW,
I know a lot of makers who don't seem to get on with scrapers and glass will do a very good job if you prefer it.
I don't think the scrapers are the secret to good finishing probably the most important things are the quality of the leather and time.
I spend a lot of time on finishing as I feel the presentation to the customer is very important. If you spend a lot of money on a pair of shoes they must not only be made very well but look good too and this is how I justify the time I spend.We discussed finishing on a previous post when another maker was trying to improve his bottom work and most people seem to use similar methods of scraping, sanding, inking, burnishing and polish.
What kind of finish do you put on your boots and shoes and is it by hand or by machine.
Regards Mack

Mack,

I use a combination of techniques, I guess. I do use a finisher (machine) to burnish the edges and I have hair and yarn brushes attached to that same shaft which I use. And most of my sanding is done with a machine. But I also do a bit of hand work, including setting the waist and heel seat. Running a heel seat wheel and burnishing the shank and the breast of the heel by hand. I try for a "clear" (wax) finish on the forepart of the outsole and a stained and waxed finish in the waist, breast, and on the heel.

I'm mostly satisfied with what I can achieve overall but I cannot get the beautiful and, most importantly, even colour you get in your foreparts. The colour I get is nice but it tends to be a little uneven and/or blotchy. Not so the customer would notice...but I do. Of course, we don't have ready access to really high grades of outsoling either...so that may be the problem but I suspect it is something I am doing.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
Just a thought about bottom finishing. If you clean the sole forepart by machine and any heat is generated or there is moisture present this could give an uneven colour before you apply any wax.
Of course uneven colour could be caused by the sole leather used,some are much more prone to staining and marking.
Regards Mack.

Mack,

Yes, I kind of knew that. I try to clean the sole when it is thoroughly dry. I think the problem may be that, as hard as one tries, with a fast moving pad of sandpaper, you generate heat and may even cut a scosh deeper in one spot than another.

So...the next question if you don't mind me asking, is how do you clean your forepart? Talking about my foreparts, which don't begin to compare to yours, is a blind alley. No one wants to replicate my clumsy efforts. However, learning how someone, whose foreparts are impeccable, approaches this problem might actually help.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW,
The photos of my work may make things look better than they are.In real life there are blemishes just like everyone else's work.
I will explain the way I do it but I think you will find it very familiar to you.
I try to have the sole smooth to start with so I bone it during the making to get rid of little bumps and dips.When I'm ready to finish the sole I gently sandpaper it to reveal any high or low spots which I try to hammer or bone out but with practice you can start with a smooth surface.
I then scrape with a scraper or glass but if you remove too much material or do it unevenly It will give colour variations.
Then sand with a fine paper to remove any sign of the scraper and clean off any dust with a clean soft brush or cloth.
Its up to you then how you wish to colour the leather.There used to be various stains available to give a range of colours but alas as with so many things in this trade they are no more.I dont really like the few colours that are still around ,too artificial looking for my taste.If anyone knows of good stains to use please let me know what you use. What ever you decide to put on apply evenly by cloth or sponge and let it completely dry before adding polish or cream.Different polishes will give varied colours so you need to experiment to see which you like.I use Kiwi or Saphire.
Let the polish soak in and add more if needed and then buff up with a dry cloth,I would imagine you could gently use a brush on a machine
to get a very nice result but be careful not to generate heat or it could stain.
Hope this is of some use.
Regards Mack.

Greetings from Eastern Canada. I wonder if there are any detailed photos of a 5 in 1 around? I've tried to look in the Colloquy keyword search but alas, have had no joy- I don't seem to be able to form the correct request. I'd like to know exactly what function each of the "5" performs. Thank you all.

Ron,

I saw a picture on here a day or two ago, but I can't remember where.

The 5 in 1 does a couple of things though. A really handy tool to have. There is a trimming portion to the machine, great for trimming your outsoles.

There is a pressing function that "rolls" the welt down to the outsoles.

A skiving function that is great for skiving half soles, or anything else really. But I'm not sure what the other two are.

I'll try to take a picture of mine and put it on here.

Justin

Ron,

Try this link, see if it helps.

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=20296#p20296

Jusitn

Ron,

Have a look at the Landis Letendre website here:

http://www.landiscanada.com

Look at rebuilt leather cutter, model 24H. There is also a good exploded diagram & parts list in the parts area

Thank you Justin, Sean and all for your helpful suggestions- I followed your threads and have a much clearer picture of what kind of a beast a 5 in 1 is. Also, apologies to admin for poor placement of this message - I'm still a little unsure of what questions are best asked under what heading, but I'm learning.

About a month back I gave a talk. The talk was in conjunction with a show I was putting on, but the gist of it centered around shoe making. During the presentation I mentioned how difficult it was to find good hand tools specific to this trade.
In attendance was a friend of mine's husband, who is part industrial designer, part mechanic and part machinist. He found himself intrigued by the lack of good tools and has kindly volunteered to try and make some.
My question is this- Is there a good online reference for us to use? If you(HCC members) could have any tool made what would it be? What are the most useful/hardest to find?
I had in mind a couple of iron sizes that I am missing, a good welt pricker, and stitch marker, but these are not particularly exotic and can be found with relative ease( the irons at least) on continental europe ebays.
Input?

Regards,
Kieran

I think the best reference is the "Dictionary of Leather-working Tools c.1700-1950" by R.A. Salaman

Not on line but available inexpensively. Also, certainly not an engineering guide. But pretty complete, never the less.

Kieran,
A hand crank gimping and pinking machine. I've seen a few with removable/replaceable wheels on ebay from time to time...but they are usually in a very shoddy state of disrepair. I'm really tired of punching each and every hole out with a rotary punch...so a brogueing wheel would be spiffy too!

-Jeff

Jeff:
I can't really imagine somebody making a hand cranked gimping and pinking machine in this day and age -- that would be an incredibly difficult task and not something, I should think, that could be done without casting many of the parts. Also, making the actual wheels is a specialty unto itself, because the cutting and setting of the cutting dies/tubes is very precise work.

Also, I have one of these rotary machines, and I don't think that it is that easy to use, since using it on curved areas is far from trivial.

If you want to do brogueing, you should look into the punch handle and punch dies available from Goetz. DW put together a group order a while back, and several of us ordered these. They are very nice, albeit pretty pricey.

For pinking, get an old 31-15 and order a gimping attachment from Dick Anderson; likely much cheaper and easier to use than the rotary device would be. A similar set-up is what the bespoke closers in London use.


Kieran:

Off the top of my head, I would be most interested in some waist irons with a 'cranked'/curved shank. Also perhaps a waist iron with a 'jigger step' as opposed to a crease. Further, people might be interested in a feather knife, though these are available from Tina. I should think people might be interested in fudge wheels. Combination punches for brogueing would be nice, but I imagine these would be very difficult to make.

Lance

Rick- I picked up a used copy of that book on the web. Thanks for the heads up.

Jeff- As amazing as that tool sounds, I don't know if casting is in our capability/budget...I'm imagining mostly cutting of tool steels, but I don't know for sure. Sounds like a totally cool machine though.

Lance- Irons for sure... what do you mean by "cranked shank" and " jigger step". Will those be in the dictionary that Rick recommended? Fudge wheels would be great. I wonder if you can find the patterns that are on the wheels and recreate them in illustrator or some other drawing program?

Respectfully,
Kieran

There are machines commercially available that will gimp and brogue simultaneously. I've posted links to them before but I'm too lazy to find that link.

They're pretty pricey.

The fact is, punching intricate series of holes will require an expensive machine.

An intermediate solution might be a machine to emboss a brogue pattern ... Making it easier to punch by hand, one at a time.

Really, it's not the punching that is laborious but the layout, IMHO.

- Rick

If a person (tool maker) were to attempt to make a gimping punch of some sort, what would be the optimum dimensions of the teeth?

As an aside, I wonder why no scissor maker ever has made 'pinking' shears with small teeth for this purpose? Someone on this forum, last year, told me my Durkopp Adler flatbed would not be able to accept one of Dick Anderson's gimping attachments due to the design of the D-A's needle bar. so I've been wondering about other ways to gimp ever since. As my spouse is a machinist and has access to a world of tools, I thought of asking him to sometime attempt to make a hand operated punch or stamp tool for gimping...hence my question about the dimensions needed.

Message deleted.

Reason: quoting prices for personal gain

See -> Topics:POSTING GUIDELINES All Users Read This!

Yr. Hmb. Svt.

(Message edited by admin on January 11, 2010)

(Message edited by admin on January 11, 2010)

I have wondered about the question Athan has put forward as to the size of the teeth for a gimping attachment. Given that info, I am wondering if it would be possible to recut a pair of pinking shears??
John Lewis

Thinking about making some crimping boards etc. soon so I can start learning. I have a few questions.
Where would be a good source of patterns, and measurements?
The crimping screws are used to pull the leather tight and remove the stretch in the leather as I understand it. There is concern about pulling too hard and tearing the leather. What if the crimping screws were made incorporating a stout spring that would allow you to put tention on the leather, and as the leather stretched, it would hold a gentle but firm and unyelding pressure?
John Lewis

John, I have a crimping board pattern what is your address. i can send it to you.

By the way, I don't know if I have missed it, but i would like to be able to post pics. Can someone inform me how to upload pics to the site?

thanks a mill.

-Marlietta

(Message edited by Last_maker on March 04, 2010)

Thanks Marlietta,
I have some patterns that someone else mailed me. You don't have to bother. Look over at the documentation section on the left and under formatting. Pictures are there.
John L

I like Jeff’s idea of the hand crank gimping and pinking machine as well as the brogueing wheel – this is exactly what I have been searching for! But I understand the challenges of getting these items to work.
Rick, sorry to ask you to repeat yourself but I’m interested in the gimping and brogueing machine you mention. Any clues as to where I might find this link?
Lance, regarding the punch handle and punch dies – does Goetz have an online catalogue or something I can access? Do you know a link for this? I’m not familiar with them.
And Kieran! I love that you initiated this topic. This is Renée from Port Townsend times. Sounds like you have been busy over the last couple of years. Do you have a website or somewhere that I can see what you’ve been up to?