The Crispin Colloquy

I would like to try my hand at some inlay and overlay work on my boots. What type of leather works best for this type of work, and what is a good source for getting the leather for doing this work? Any suggestions welcome on doing this type of work.

From a beginner.

Anonymous,

Someone else might give the answers you want but I don't talk to anonymous people..TR

TR,
I am very sorry, that I may have OFFENDED you by using ANONYMOUS. MY NAME I BILL. Why do you have the anonymous post if people take offence to it?

Bill,

I am the creator, administrator and webmaster of this site. I want to personally welcome you. You are more than welcome to post anonymously, if that is your wish. We have had, in the past, any number of folks post anonymously with no problems. But be aware, however, that we have also had several who abused the privilege...and our hospitality...by insulting people and making claims and statements that seemed to come out of left field. These folks seem to expressly want to sidestep the reponsibility for their own words.

We all like to know who we are talking to. We all like to know the background and credentials of a person before we accept the criticism or questioning of our own. This is the source of Tex's sentiments, I'm sure. It's not really hostility as much as reserve. Many of the people posting here put themselves and their reputations on the line...open themselves for criticism and gossip...simply by making themselve and their ideas accessible to people who want to learn. So with that thought in mind, please think seriously about letting folks know something about yourself and your background.

As for your question...any leather that is firm and relatively dense will work for inlays and overlays. You often have to work with what the customer wants and not what you, yourself, would choose. Personally, I like to work with kangaroo or kidskin or goat for inlays and whatever is suitable and durable for overlays such as toe caps and heel scabs, etc.. I am doing an elephant footed boot currently and it has a collar of filigreed elephant. In this case the elephant collar would qualify as an overlay. For toe caps and heel scabs, I never use a leather that is more delicate than the vamp itself. I'll put lizard and shark and elephant and alligator over a calf or kangaroo vamp but i would never put a kidskin toe cap on a calf or kangaroo vamp.

Hope this helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Bill,

Just a few more thoughts--I was a bit tired last night-...

One of the most important criteria for inlay work is the thickness of the leather. If you use a four ounce calfskin for your underlays, for instance, you'll have trouble blending it in so that it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb...or end up looking like a wad stuck behind the overlying leather.

Using kid or kangaroo, which is generally between one and a half and two ounce, you get several benefits: first, it's already thin...when you skive the edge, it can be made to nearly disappear behind the leather of the top. Second, kid and kangaroo are almost always "struck through" and come in many bright colours, as well...colours that calf and cow seldom come in. It is possible to use lizard and snake and even alligator or ostrich for your inlays and I have done. Sometimes just for the sake of texture, they are ideal. But they are never as clean and as pure as using kidskin.

I mentioned firmness and density...this is really important when you cut out your designs. If you use some raggy old, spongy cowhide, or deer, or elk, etc., what you end up with will be a mess--with uneven edges, rolled edges...and inconsistent stitching too, believe it or not.

When you do inlays, simply keep in mind what you hope to achieve. An inlay in leather can be nearly as refined, in its own way, as an inlay in wood. If you close your eyes and run your fingers over the top of an inlaid table, for instance, what do you suppose you will you feel? If the work has been done well, chances are you feel nothing but a smooth surface.

Similarly with an inlay on a boot. Done with care, an inlay on a boot should be at, or nearly at, the same level as if there were no inlay there at all. Closing you eyes and running your fingers over the surface...all you should feel is the stitches standing proud. Personally, I don't like my inlays to end up being "buffalo wallows."

Even overlays such as collars can be refined in a similar manner although not to quite the same degree. But keeping such standards in mind will, to a great extent, dictate what leathers you choose and what techniques you apply.

As for sources, for kidskin in particular...try Hardtke, GH Leathers, Garlin Leathers, and/or Shrut and Asche.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

On 06 May, 2002, all post to this topic made prior to 25 February, 2002, were moved to the first Crispin Colloquy Archive CD.

Admin

DW/Anyone,
DW, I noticed in the gallery that you have tried a water based neoprene called UPACO. Can you tell me about it? Was it as good as regular spirit based neoprene like Ados F2 or I think Barge?

I've built up a resistance(?) to the solvent in the contact adhesives we get here such as F2 and I think Barge(I've never actually used Barge 'cept an American friend had a little in a can and the F2 solvent we have thinned the Barge for him, plus the two glues smelt similar.) My hands get very itchy and almost burnt, small blisters form where the adhesive has come into contact with my skin -'specially some of the sensitive skin on my hands.
This makes me a real neat gluer but that stuff has a habit of getting where it shouldn't!
Perhaps water based neoprene won't affect me the same?
I use latex for some jobs but that's not always the best choice.
Does anyone else have te same problem?
I can't be the only person on the planet that's affected by the glue.
More power to y'awl!
Tom.

Tom,

I can't say I'm surprised that you've developed an allergy to the solvent based cements, I've been using them for most of my career and although I've seemingly don't have any problems with them, the solvent--toluene (?), is nasty stuff.

The water based neoprene contact cement is from a company called Upaco. They usually number their products rather than name them.

My opinion? I like the stuff. It has nearly, if not all, the holding power of solvent based cement. But of course it takes some getting used to. The way it dries is a little different--a little slower, mostly. And it can get kind of weird in the pot after it sits a while too. The spec sheets (and the chemist at Upaco) say no toxics, no volatiles, no formaldahyde, and no ammonia in the product.

I've used it to put leather soles on leather boots. I've used it to put rubber soles on leather boots. I've used it to put rubber heels caps on leather bases. It's especially great for cementing oil-stuffed leathers. In fact, the other day I put a layer of WB (water base) on the bottoms of an oil-stuffed vamp, let it dry and then recoated it with SB. Then I attached a SB rubber sole. Worked great! Supposedly you can even let it sit overnight and re-activate it with heat. I've only done that once or twice, but I've been satisfied with the results.

Over all, I don't know why I don't use it full time. I believe I could. I guess I'm just used to the SB and use it out of habit. I do have the two glue pots sitting side by side, so it's not like it's sitting on the bottom shelf in some dark corner of my shop. I use it...I used it yesterday to help close up a side seam.

The only drawback/downside to the deal is that you must purchase a minimum of five gallons and what with the added packaging (if you want individual gallons) and the shipping (depending on where you're located), it can run as much a twice the cost of a gallon of SB. Maybe that's why I don't use it for everything.

I'd say it's worth a try. I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

DW
thanks for your comprehensive and prompt reply. That adhesive sounds wonderful. I checked out the Upaco website and looked at the spec sheet for the glue - 1812 I think it's called and I'm impressed.
In one application where I work now, we use a paint tray and paint roller to put the glue on, glueing up about 2-300 sq ft at a time, I'm not joking, but this is only 3-4 times a year thank goodness!
I hope you don't mind, but I downloaded a picture of your workshop as inspirational wallpaper, I saw the two glue boys on your bench, one red, one blue.
Kind regards and...
More power to y'awl!
Tom.

Tom,

I don't know which picture that was or where you found it but ...hey, I'm flattered. If I can be an inspiration, or if my workshop can be an inspiration, all to the better.

I have three photos of a traditional sit down shoemaker's bench that Al Saguto made, hanging over my bench. And printouts of comments and advice that Bill Tippet has passed along. And shoes and boots from all periods (some of Jan P. Meyer's shoes, in the Gallery Archives, are simply mind boggling) that I look at over and over again...searching for nuance and detail I may have missed the other times I looked at them. I have a post card from Paul Krause with a very good looking boot on it...and so it goes. Hopefully we inspire each other.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I opened my last cake of Jared Holt edge wax today. Since they have been gone for years resupply is impossible. I am looking for a wax that will flow well on a flap wheel but will set hard. Heel ball seems too soft for my taste. Any suggestions on what is out there? Thanks
T mattimore

Tom,

Are you sure C.S. Pierce doesn't still make the Jared Holt waxes?

My finder told me it was NA but I will do some searching. Thanks
Tom

Tom,

Just in case you don't have C.S. Pierce infomation:

C. S. Pierce Co.
PO Box 3750
Brockton, MA 02404
Phone: 508-587-1101

Can anyone confirm the contact info for C.S.Pierce? I've been trying to reach them for about a week, with no luck. I found an alternate # that is constantly busy: (508) 559-6301

Thanks,
Erick Geer Wilcox

Erick,

Well.....I can tell ya right now, I don't use C.S. Pierce since I've learned to make my own handwax. And I have to tell ya, they were always a little hard to do business with. They want to sell to the "distributor".

The information above is the last I had. Sorry I can't be of further help.

Erick,

I regret having to say this, but I wouldn't do business with C.S. Pierce. I've had problems with them and simply put, I don't trust them. There are other "grinderies" (can we call them grinderies?) that deal in the same items, such as Ward and Kennedy, and S.F. Associates. They may even be getting some of these materials from C.S. Pierce, but at least you wouldn't have them substituting out phoney goods, promising to refund and then not doing so.

Bottom line, anyway...those Jared Holt waxes are not that good...not compared to what you can make. Not that there's anything fundamentally wrong with them, but they tend to be extremely brittle...unusably brittle...and you end up re-heating them and adding oil or beeswax or something, anyway. Time you're done you could've made a batch of your own.

And one other thing to think about...there's not that much demand for those Jared Holt handwaxes. I'd be surprised to see them still on the market five years from now. It might be good to learn to make the stuff yourself and put in a "lifetime supply" of the ingredients--rosin, pitch, beeswax, lanolin.... Especially if you intend to make boots or shoes for the rest of your life. Prices ain't goin' down anytime soon.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

I found out this morning that CS Pierce was absorbed by United Global Supply, so far, the people that I have talked to have been very helpful. I wasn't actually looking for the waxes, so I don't know about that end of the supplies they have.

Erick Geer Wilcox

Ken Irvin had asked, but I thought I'd post for all these sources for cod-liver oil:

Nick Wyshinski can be reached at (570) 752-2697.


JR and Sons can be reached at (419) 465-2193.



You might also try vet supply houses such as Jeffers Equine, at (800) 533-3377.

I am trying to make hand wax. I found pine pitch and rosin from someone in Maine but the price is $7 an ounce. Does that sound right? Has anyone brought some in the recent month or so and who did you buy it from? Thanks for any help, Joel

Joel,

Do a keyword search for "pine pitch." Set the keyword options for "And" (match all keywords) and set the "match method" for "whole words only." Then set the "search topic" for "Open Forum."

You'll get quite a few results. Read through them...if I remember correctly there are addresses in there for companies that sell pine pitch and rosin. You'll just have to call around.

A couple years ago I would have recommended Rausch Naval Yards for the pitch, but they were in New Orleans and I heard that they had gone out of business in the wake of Katrina.

And as a last resort I know that some makers are using "hot wax" (you buy it from a finder)...it's sometimes called Atom Wax...straight up out of the wrapper.

Good luck...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Dw

Is there much difference between the Pine Pitch and the Lanolin? Thanks Joel

Hi Joel,
Lanolin is the grease that is scoured - washed and cleaned - out of a sheeps wool prior to it being spun etc. It comes in several grades the most refind is used in makeup and obviously more expensive.
Pine pitch is like sap fron a tree and looks like rosin.
You need both to make your wax.

More power to y'awl
T.

I read in previous post that the Lanolin replaced the Pine Pitch. Is this correct? Has anyone used it for waxing inseaming thread? Thanks Joel

Also, Is Pine Pitch liquid or a solid?