Shoe machines

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
Post Reply
Message
Author
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Shoe machines

#376 Post by jesselee »

Yom

I believe it was about 62 that the rotating horn was modified, being around when McKay bought the patent and went from a bench machine to a floor model with 3 legs.

Alasdair
Lymon Blake developed a chain stitch machine in 1859 for sewing the soles of shoes. It was a table model with a small horn to place the shoe on. McKay to what I can figure out with the sparse information on their and Blake's machine, available either bought Blake out giving the machine a rotating horn and keeping it bench and hand crank until early 1862, then developing its own ideas with the horn. Alkso making the horn longer so as to do boots.

This is a basic overview based on what I have found about these 2 machines and is not meant as gospel.

Cheers,
JesseLee
tmattimore
5
5
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:00 am
Full Name: Tom Mattimore

Re: Shoe machines

#377 Post by tmattimore »

Mckay bought Blakes patent and then hired him to continue work on the machine and devlop other machines. Thus started the Mckay sewing machine Co., they never sold a machine, they only leased them. In the 1890s Mckay merged with Goodyear and began to buy up or merge with all the smaller shoe machinery companys and in 1899 formed United Shoe Machinery Co. As far as I can find out Blake worked for the company until his demise.
Tom
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Shoe machines

#378 Post by das »

Jesse,

I was thinking of current reenactor shoes. To mimic proper welted construction, some "cheat" and MacKay a leather midsole to the shoe, then stitch an outsole to the edge of that to mimic a welted look.

The only antique MacKay'ed ACW bootee I've ever seen was the one huge Federal one at the Smithsonian made for a soldier who died before he got to wear it. It has concentric rows of chain-stitching all over the sole.

Sorry, no photos handy.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#379 Post by dw »

Al, et al,

Thornton calls this method of attachment "Fairstitched." So it goes back at least to the mid 20th century if not before.

But more contemporaneously, there is a whole segment of the commercial shoe industry...particularly of Italian origin...that uses this method, calling it "Blake-Rapid." Testoni, Berlutti, etc..

It's actually quite attractive, very refined, and far, far better in terms of strength, longevity and long term integrity than Goodyear welted, in my estimation.

FWIW...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Shoe machines

#380 Post by jesselee »

Tom

Thanks for jogging my brain on that.

Al

So true about the imitation brogans with the welted mid-sole. In originals I have seen welts sewn in a traditional way and nailed welts. McKay construction needed no welt and the stitches were closed by a glued down splice. Very strong. I have only heard about that big shoe. Love to see it.

Back to making the spring for my cast off on the CW period McKay. The gum-band only worked so long. Ahh these old machines were tugh as nails.

Cheers,

JesseLee
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Shoe machines

#381 Post by das »

DW,

Yes, I've used the term "faire-stitched" on the Forum before, but it drew funny looks Image

Hummm.... Interesting..... When I first read about "Blake-Rapide" a few years back (as in Blake/MacKayed middle & soles stitched with the Rapid-e sole stitcher?) it seemed to me a "cheater" way to make a quasi/pseudo Goodyear welted shoe, but without at the machinery needed for Goodyear welting.

I'd be interested in why you think Blake-Rapide has such merit? IMO any "vertical fastening" (nails, pegs, or vertical MacKay stitches) tends to result in a rigid inflexible bottom. MacKay stitching, also, is inherently weaker than a transverse or oblique stitch (hand- or machine-welting). The only shoes I've examined made like this (faire-stitched) are these wannabe-welted 17thc, 18thc, and 19thc reenactor shoes (which should be hand-welted for authenticity), but aren't even Goodyear machine-welted because of lack of all the proper machinery.

Maybe if you split the insole into two layers, and cemented the top grain layer back to hide the MacKay stitching (super poly braided thread) it might be better, but you still have the huge stress factor on the vertical threads, plus an open crevice all around for grit and dirt to get in there and abrade away the MacKay stitches.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#382 Post by dw »

Al,

Well, I may need to qualify my remarks to stipulate that when I speak of "Goodyear" I mean machine welted to a canvas rib (or gemming.) We often use GY as a catch-all term to mean anything "welted" but technically...as I understand it...it has to use the processes and techniques that Goodyear invented. So, hand welting is not GY construction.

On the fairstitched that I've seen, they tend to be stitched through the insole...and sometimes, sadly enough, those insoles are not even leather...to a midsole. This, of course, prepares the shoe for an outsole. All things being equal, stitching a midsole onto the shoe as a foundation for mounting an outsole is far superior to gluing a canvas rib to the insole.

When the outsole is sewn on, the stitching can be dropped into a channel just as with best quality machine outsoling. The upshot is that, because the outsole covers the McKay stitching and the outsole stitching is in a channel, there is no ability for the stitching to wick moisture up into the shoe--a point that Thornton himself makes in contrasting Blake with Fairstitched.

And, of course, there is no gemming/glue to come loose or deteriorate due to the stresses placed on the shoe...from to improper fit or even ordinary usage, in some cases...and, often, well before its time.

Most of the Blake-Rapid I've seen do have a sockliner covering the stitches.

Unfortunately, even in high-end shoes, with well burnished names and reputations, such as those in England (as well as France and Italy)...whether they be GY or BR...fiberboard or some combination of fiberboard and cushioning tends to be more and more prevalent. At which point, all bets are off as far as I am concerned and I have a hard time seeing a substantive difference between the absolute quality offered in high dollar GY and that offered by Walmart.

You can make almost spurious arguments for the quality of the upper leathers as the great distinction in high-end GY-fiberboard shoes. But in terms of functionality, longevity, and even expectation, the leather on some Walmat shoes is not significantly inferior. All the rest is superficialities.

IMO...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on May 29, 2010)
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Shoe machines

#383 Post by dearbone »

"The machine-welted(GY machine)construction follows on the lines of handsewn welted construction. Given perfect materials, correctly conditioned and prepared, and efficient machine operation and adjustment, there are many that claim its results are equal to the hand method. Korn, CHAPTER 96 page 518.

From what i know the GY machine is built to copy the hand process,it does a horizontal chainstitch,insole and vertical lockstitch on the sole,but not sure the same machine supplied to do both the inseam and the out seam.

Nasser
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#384 Post by dw »

Nasser,

I'm not so sanguine with regard to Korn's conclusion.

The linen or canvas ribbing was introduced because in the original process, which involved cutting two "channels" (one inward from the insole edge and another in roughly the same position as the inside position on handwelted) was deemed to be too brittle and subject to breakout. (See below)

Even canvas ribbing ("gemming" ), which is now the de facto standard for GY, will break out or slip. I saw a lot of problems with gemming in my time repairing and I became convinced that Goodyear was significantly inferior to hand welting. I never anticipated this discussion all these years ago...when I was seeing a lot of problems. But recently I have accumulated several photos from the rare pair of shoes or boots that come into me for repairs which illustrate the weakness of the GY method. I can post these if you wish.

I post a photo and diagram of the original GY technique below but before I do I would make this further comment as regards gemming:

When a shoe is hand welted you are combining materials that are very similar in temper and strength. If you could somehow create an inseam that extended the insole through the upper and into a lip which would function as a welt you would have an impossibly perfect solution.

Of course this is not possible but handwelting comes the closest and is very like welding two pieces of metal together in that regard. The welt is cut from leather that is nearly identical in temper and fiber structure as the insole. There is a direct attachment/proximity/connection between the welt, the insole and the upper. There is no gap or disconnect in the junction of these materials. Only the thread is significantly different in character.

As such, all the elements function together...not separately...flex together, wear together, resist breakage or stress together. It is as close to a gestalt as you can come.

Gluing gemming onto an insole, whether it be leather or fiberboard is problematic. The glue is one obvious weak point. But the canvas or linen is not far behind. Taken together and factoring in the characteristics of the leather, these are disparate elements, at best. They cannot be expected to perform in concert.

In any event, the only element holding a pair of gemmed shoes together that is even marginally reliable is the outsole and the outsole stitching. You could walk around in a pair of sole-less handwelted shoes until the insole wore through. A pair of gemmed shoes probably would last more than 20 minutes in constant use if it had no outsole to hold it together.
11269.png

11270.png


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on May 29, 2010)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Shoe machines

#385 Post by jesselee »

DW

I just had to do this. Love challenging myself and will send you pics next week. Your thoughts echoe mine in your quote and why I am a pegger and CW era welter which is unlike the stuff y'all do.

"If you could somehow create an inseam
that extended the insole through the upper and into a lip which would
function as a welt you would have an impossibly perfect solution".

I believe I have that solution. Stand by for the pics in the coming week. If it's been developed before, I have never seen it and would want proof in hand. It may be my first innovation after 47 years in the TradeImage

Cheers,

JesseLee
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Shoe machines

#386 Post by dearbone »

DW,

The machine i was talking about uses direct method inseaming like we do by hand and uses a channel,no canvas gemming/glue,this must be a new innovation and it is fake, i have seen it and didn't know what to make of it.

Nasser
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#387 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Hmmm. I have not heard of this...if it is not the original GY method as illustrated in the photo I post just above, it must be new. It would be interesting to see and a real boon to the state of commercial shoemaking in my opinion.

But I wonder...if it ends up being like what we do when hand welting, can it be called Goodyear?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#388 Post by dw »

Jesse,

I will look forward to seeing it. Post photos on the forum if you will.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Shoe machines

#389 Post by dearbone »

Dw,

you may buy the company that produce the machine and you can call it whatever welt,We hardly have a name for the hand welt that we do,I heard people refer to it as "English welt" far from it,so who will object naming that which had no name,Although i think it came from Cordoba.there is a BUSMC machine that sews welt like we do by hand which is called "The Lockstitch through-sewn welt"
GY made a machine that chainstitched welt to insole/upper.

Nasser
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Shoe machines

#390 Post by das »

Nasser & DW,

Our hand-sewn welt, as we know it, came from Germany c.1460 (based on first archaeological evidence) and revolutionized shoemaking in Western Europe. They could then be made right-side-out and with thicker bottoms than the previous "turnshoe" method allowed.

The "Goodyear" process started with cut and folded-up insole flaps to create the holdfast rib, as you described, then reinforcing canvas added over that rib covering the whole insole, then the separate stick-on "Gem" ribbing--it's all legally "Goodyear". Tim Noonan in RI just sold a Goodyear insole rib-cutting machine for welting during his going-out-of-business sale. I wonder which lucky Forumite nabbed that?

I have seen Gemmed rib insoles fail because the rib came un-glued. I've seen them fail because the rib/canvas tore through (rare), but I also owned one pair that I got second-hand, wore hard and abused, gave away for more hard wear, got back by luck, which are now on their 4th owner and 40th year of wear--no rib failure yet. So it can be a sound way to make a boot. IMO hand-sewn welted is king, but I gotta agree with Korn, when done right Goodyear is superior to all but...

There are variants Jesse. Some of the "stitchdown" (vedlschoen) constructions that use the insole, feathered and inseamed w/upper like welted shoe, and the outflanged upper as the welt are quite durable and waterproof to boot. Pegging is of course historically correct during it's hey-day (c.1830-1890s), and was a great US contribution to bootmaking (especially once steam-powered pegging machines come out in c. 1850), but it was only ever used for low-cost utilitarian footwear--the welt was still king (look at U.S. Grant's and R. E. Lee's own boots), not to mention the prize boots by Mernholtz(sp?)of Philadelphia exhibited at the US Centennial Exposition in 1876 (welted at 64 spi). Northampton Central Museum now owns these alligator monsters, and they might shoot you a photo. BTW DW, what ever happened to the LACMA sending you photos of their prize boot with 64 spi on the welt?
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Shoe machines

#391 Post by dearbone »

Al,

The reason i suspect that our hand welt is from Cordoba is that German civilization is from it's southern parts,the one close to the Mediterranean cultures,the German elites were going to Andalusia to learn the arts and crafts of leather/paper making and book binding and much more long before 1460.

Nasser
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Shoe machines

#392 Post by das »

Nasser,

Interesting theory you have about Cordoba as the source, I've never heard that before, but I don't get the luxury of speculating. All I can say is, that the forensic evidence of old shoes all point to Germany around 1460 for the start pf rightside-out, welted, shoemaking. To further complicate matters, rightside-out, welted, shoemaking seems to have derived from Medieval overshoe-making techniques, as those were made rightside-out with an intermediate strip of leather all round (platform cover, or "rand" in one of its many iterations) the outsole was attached to.

As with most tectonic advances in technological change in the (barely) Post-Medieval world, there was an awkward period of transition as "progressive" shoemakers across Europe tried to figure out the "new" trick to meet consumer demand for it, while others clung to the old turnshoe, and others hybridized and morphed it into dead ends on the family tree of shoe constructions (e.g. turn-welts with added outsoles). Welted, in it's current form was pretty wide-spread in W. Europe by c.1500-50, though still being referred to as the "new" novel method around 1590s, if we're reading the sources right.

The old turnshoe method survived, too, but was relegated to lightweight pumps and slippers, and of course it's still in use today.
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Shoe machines

#393 Post by dearbone »

Al,

You are right it is speculation until earlier evidence is found in Spain,but i don't think Spain is interested in it's history from 710 to 1492 when it was occupied/ruled by the Arabs,and since i am not writing a book,here is another speculation, The French word Rabbet for holdfast is also an Arabic word meaning the same thing,to tie,to fasten,etc,coincident? maybe.

I do enjoy reading your history of western shoe making given here,but i can't help seeing it as something young.

Regards
Nasser
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#394 Post by dw »

Al,

It took me a long time to get it through my thick head that if there is not hard, objective evidence to support a notion it might as well be science fiction.

I don't want to count the times I muddied the waters by either suggesting something was true for which there was no real evidence, or rejecting out of hand some notion for which there was plenty of evidence...and documented evidence at that.

You cured me of all that (I hope)...thank you.. but it still embarrasses me to remember.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Shoe machines

#395 Post by jesselee »

AL

Some years ago I went to a museum to look at old flintlocks and the like and in the display there was a mannequin wearing a pair of boots from the 16oo's. They were over the knee buff leather with the upper over the vamp. The soles were stitched around the actual sole edge and heel to toe was one piece of leather having been rounded in the arch to heel area. The stitches would be about a #12 linen and 1/4". Any idea ow this was done?

DW
Waiting on the nice calf for the dress shoes with the 'innovative' welt idea. It looks good on paper and in theory. I will post pics.

Cheers,
JesseLee
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Shoe machines

#396 Post by das »

DW,

You're spot on. And to make matters worse "evidence" is not "proof" *sigh* Those of us who make a career out of trying to unravel history, and keep the record straight for posterity have a fun but highly frustrating task before us.

"The problem with history is, they're making more of it everyday"--Anon.

In the greater scheme of things, the history of shoe constructions is so obscure and little valued by the general public (or institutions that are charged with doing history), that it's not like there'll ever be a "Jane's Weapons" type book series being constantly updated on the subject. In fact, one hand-grenade tossed into the right room could easily wipe-out not only the handful of serious researchers, but all their work as well.

I'm glad you feel I've steered you right. We all go through this if out interest deepens beyond superficial, popular-level stuff. It's called "cognitive dissonance"--that unsettling feeling when our taken-for-granted, long-held "case closed" assumptions turn out to be, er... well... wrong. Our first reaction is a nagging discomfort, then the choice to either adopt the new information and go on from there, or reject the new information out of hand and struggle to build a defensive rationale to maintain the older version. Just like "A day without orange juice is like a day without sunshine" the old ads used to say, in history, "A day without generating cognitive dissonance is a day without real learning" I guess you could say.
das
Seanchaidh
Posts: 1626
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2000 9:00 am
Full Name: D.A. Saguto--HCC
Has Liked: 148 times
Been Liked: 126 times

Re: Shoe machines

#397 Post by das »

Jesse,

Not much to go on there bro' What museum, where? Without seeing the boots there's no way for me to hazard a guess--and it's possible they were just something "theatrical" they put on to dress the mannequin.

Or, from your description, they could have been 17thc boots with a full stitched "rand" all round, and the proper "spring" heel and narrow waist of the 1st half 17thc. (heel lifts kinda wedge-shaped, the outsole goes over them, continuous from heel to toe.)

Pretty entailed to describe in words, but I'll try:

1) "Rand" is sewn all round the boot, like a "welt", only it's thinner and twice as wide
2) After sewing, the loose portion of the rand is snugged down and pulled underneath the insole and either braced across with a loose zig-zagging thread to hold it, or whip-stitched to the underside of the insole
3) The finished rand presents a thick, flat, rolled border close up to the last all around the boot--it does not stick out like a welt does
4) The sole-stitching (for nicer stuff) was done with a "square" or "French" awl that made slits like: I I I I I I, so the finished "stitched rand" had stitches that were wider (in thread) than they were long (in distance asunder). Or, this technique got more thread and wax into the work, thus it was stronger. The awl enters the nice wide flat rolled surface of the rand, curves down and exits through the outsole. BTW, this is a bugger-bear to do neatly unless it's all you do.

Snoop around on Marc Carlson's website, he may have this technique illustrated there someplace.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#398 Post by dw »

Al,

I hear you. But I might add just to clarify things a bit...I love science fiction! About 80% of what I read sci-fi.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
User avatar
producthaus
3
3
Posts: 96
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:52 pm
Full Name: Nick Hausman
Location: San Francisco, CA, USA
Contact:

Re: Shoe machines

#399 Post by producthaus »

I've decided that I need a post sewing machine (is this the tipping point for getting into shoemaking as a serious-hobby?). I wanted to ask for west-coast suppliers/resellers and then machine options here, to thin the fog on this information-rich subject. The Pfaff 491 looked interesting, but I really know nothing about post machines at this point.

Thoughts :
Price isn't really a factor at this point, as I want to know what expensive means, I can then adjust my expectations as needed.

I am comfortable with manuals and adjustments, though I don't want an antique machine. Old(er) is fine.

I am just be making shoes, no boots - not sure if this is a factor?



(Message edited by producthaus on June 02, 2010)
jim_b

Re: Shoe machines

#400 Post by jim_b »

I have a very nice Artisan 5110 available...
Post Reply