Shoe machines

[jake]

Riley,

I wasn't going to say anything, but I totally agree with Jim.

Connie at Campbell-Bosworth puts together a great machine, but it's gonna cost ya quite a bit more!

As for Keith Pommer, if he says a machine is "tight", you can bet your bottom dollar it's tight! Call him up, he may have an American Straight Needle around the shop.

Bottom line....if you want a machine to JUST do side-seaming, get an American Straight Needle! Why do you think D.W. and Tex have one? They are simple to operate and sew a tight stitch when set up correctly.

Hate to put it so straight forward, but I ain't no other way.

Jake

[mnewberry]

Riley,

I've tried lots of things for side-seaming, including stitching by hand, a curved needle, cylinder arm and an American Straight Needle.

The cylinder arm is truly very versatile, but I went to the American for several reasons. First, my cylinder arm wouldn't stitch past 138 thread and I really felt that was too light for most boots. Second, I had to thin my edges of my counter too much, or the machine threatened to miss stitches where it was most important. And last, because it seemed like it was never quite set up right when I went to use it.

I bought a good American for $600 and it has served me well. It's not perfect, yet, but I'm getting a system figured out. I use it only for side seaming, and have a homemade harness plate/table with a long, non-adjusting edge guide mounted on it. If I dependably use the same size welt, it's always set right. For the table, I originally bought one from Gateway, but I was underwhelmed by its quality vs. price. I ended up making one from HDMW plastic, like I use for a cutting board, in 1/4 inch width, 4 1/2 x 8 inches, just matching the mounting holes with the old plate. It's working great, zero friction, and is easy to clean. (I can send a photo if it helps when you are making one.)

I use a braided poly thread top and bottom, with thread lube only. I've tried using liquid wax, which did seem to make a really tight stitch, but it's just so messy that I was always worried about staining a boot. The braided poly is ok, but when it's out, I may try a simple twisted poly. I use a #5 awl and needle, and I round the edges of the awl a little, because it doesn't seem to need to be sharp to get through the tops, and it seems like the sharp edges might be able to cause tearing(??).

The only time I doubt it is when I'm stitching a very light top. I have had some difficulty getting the stitch to lock in the middle in this case, and someime the flimsy tops want to work around on you too much. I'm thinking about a larger foot to keep it help to the plate.

I answer in such length out of understanding: I used to dread side-seaming for all the problems that I had. The American has helped a lot. I'm still not "there" yet with it, but for the most part my problems now are operator error, (and there are no mechanics available for that.)

Good luck,

Matt

[tmattimore]

Matt I am with you on the straight needle 100%. Have you tried adjusting the lock so the cam lever is just a little behind straight up? I routinley use mine to sew two layers of 6 oz. with no problems. As to feet they made a longer foot but it was open at the front and if you sew too fast sometimes the thread would catch on the toe of the foot or when it came to the heel counter it would catch.
Tmattimore

[dw]

Matt, Riley,

Good post! Most people won't want to go to this amount of hassle but it is possible to tack (with tiny lasting tacks) up your tops to prevent that sliding around you mentioned. Or you can use latex or rubber cement to temporarily fix your tops. That works real well thin tops--unless the leather has no finish...at which point you might want to use something like HirschKleber. But if you do stitch patterns and are very fussy you almost have to resort to some kind of stabilizing technique to be certain that the points and elements of your stitch pattern on each panel line up across the side seam.

BTW, I think you are spot on about the weight of the sideseam thread. I've seen boots that are sewn with lighter thread but it makes me nervous. Also, I think you'll like the spun dacron rather than the braided dacron. I've used both and have had less problems with the spun stuff...especially since the braided thread can get hung up on the hook or other parts of the mechanism.

I had a plate made for me and had a ball bearing roller mounted to the plate. It's adjustable to and from the presserfoot although I keep it tightened down in one position--like you, as long as I'm careful and make my sidewelts with some degree of precision, it's always correct.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[Floyd Case]

I have been using a Tippman Boss machine for side seams and it has worked well. It is a very simple hand operated (like a slot machine) piece of equipment. It will accomodate a great variety of thread sizes, and is usefull for other projects too. It used to be available through The Leather Factory.

Floyd Case

[fneiii]

Riley,
There is a guy in South Dakota who has a couple of American Straight Needle machines. He refurbishes them and if needed repaints. He told me he has one now he has to paint yet because he stripped off all of the old paint and he is asking $1,600 for it and the other is still apart. He isn't very keen on shipping, you would have to talk to him. He also has a large steel building filled with commercial sewing machines and some tools.
Keith Pommer
Box 323
Worthing, South Dakota, 57077
1(605)372-4523
Hope this helps.
Frank

[gaid]

D.W,

I'm not sure that Hirschkleber is a good choice when it is about to fix the tops before side seaming. It works best if it stays under pressure for at least a couple of hours. Or even better, over night. It is the old slow kind of cement. I for one use all purpose, and it works pretty good. If you keep it inside the seam allowance that is!

[dw]

Janne,

Yeah, I guess you are right about the Hirschkleber but what would you do if the leather were a rough out or a naked grain? I avoid most of that problem because I generally tack my sideseams rather than glue them but I have used a water based paper cement once or twice. Even though you have to clamp it, it doesn't have to dry overnight...or even much beyond 15 minutes or so...and it will wash off the leather even if it is a rough out. One tiny drop of all purpose that squeezes out beyond the sideseam and suddenly you've got a mess--a blotch of all purpose that will not come off and will show. So what would you use instead?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

Riley
I just got the montana leather co. flyer today it lists some st needles for sale Greg somersall saddlery $1200 541 823 0141, A guy named Travis has one for $1000 at 406 395 4146. I don't know these people buyer beware. Montana puts out a monthly flyer Their # is 406 245 1660.
As to side seam sewing since my boots have only one seam to line up creep is not a problem. The st needle since it is a needle feed presents few problems with creep provided nobody tries to talk to me when I am sewing. I don't know if any one else does this but I baste my welt on to one side of the back and the opposite side of the front so that I always sew from the top of the boot down thus I can always see the thread that bastes the welt and use it as a guide. I do this since my boot pulls are behind the welt and any creep would show.
Tmattimore

[rileycraig]

All,

I want to thank each and everyone of you who took the time to give me your input on side-seaming, and the machines you prefer (or don't) for this purpose. I value your opinion, obviously, and the response was great. I have learned a lot about machines, various types of thread and needles, and a multitude of other things that I will use in the future.

You guys are great and I appreciate you.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

[gaid]

D.W,

Well, I would still have used the all purpose. I mark with a pen where the seam allows ends and keep me within it. Here in Euorope many makers cover the shoe with cling film when they make a pair of rough out or other sensitive leather which need to be protected. I do it sometimes too but I think that would take to long time regarding the side seaming so I trust my hand instead. For those of you who are not familiar with the cling film method here is a pic.

2375.jpg

On these I just wanted to protect the white sides.

[D.A. Saguto--HCC]

DW,

Here's how we handle this: align your edges where you want them, take a stabbing awl and make a hole in the seam allowance. Using a left-over waxend make a loop and square knot it over the edge. Cut the thread. Move down another 3" or 4", align the edges, and poke another hole, tie another loop and knot, etc. until you have the whole long seam and all layers/pieces held where you want; then blast away with your stitcher. These loops n' knots get trimmed away with the surplus seam allowance, and unlike tiny tacks, they won't bugger-up your machine's needle if you hit one while stitching.

It's a lot faster than waiting for glues and cements to set-up, and a good use for all those left over bits of waxends. Sometimes low-tech *is* indeed the easier way

[admin]

Sharon,

Please do not take this personally...we have lots of new members on the Forum and sometimes "System Announcements" escaped their notice.

The Crispin Colloquy does not allow the posting of prices of machinery, materials, boots, etc., by the seller unless asked directly. The forum is sponsored by The Honourable Cordwainers' Company--a non-profit, 501 C-3, educational organization. As such we cannot allow any hint of "for-profit" activity on the Forum.

As a consequence I will have to delete your post. Should you care to, you can re-post it without the price...simply advise readers to contact you via email for further informations.

Yr. Hmb Svt....

[dw]

Janne,

I have heard of using cling wrap, but have never seen it done before. It's a good idea. I suppose you just take a sharp knife and trim the plastic away before sewing on the sole?

Al,

Well, that's the way I do it at the corner of the vamp and countercover junction. And, at bottom, tacking up the side seam is really just a variation of that technique. I went to the tacks rather than thread simply because I could be really accurate with the tacks.

I baste my sidewelt to the back panel. Then, I can carefully position the points of my decorative stitching so that they are directly opposite one another, clamp the sideseam together, and drive in a 3/4 ounce tack (sometimes longer, sometimes shorter), on either side of my clamp point...clinching the point of the tack on a small anvil. Once driven, the tops are effectively "fixed" in place--no slippage possible, especially if I continue to tack the length of the sideseam.

Using the thread would be really effective for thin leathers, though, where even a 1/2 ounce tack is too long.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[bultsad]

All,
After basting the side seam to the front panel, glue the vamp and counter cover on the edge
(maybe a 16th inch) Then tack at the top edge of the vamp and counter cover and also at the bottom. Then I go to my patch machine and sew the front and back panels together down to the vamp. If I am worried about points lining up I will tack those points and pull them as I sew.
Jim

[bultsad]

I can see that I should have added that I then sew the boots together on the straight needle. I pull the tacks at the vamp as I am sewing the the final time, the glue keeps the peices from slipping and if you do it right,does not show at all when you turn the boot.
Jim

[gaid]

D.W,
-------
I suppose you just take a sharp knife and trim the plastic away before sewing on the sole?
-------

Yes and no! I use the knife but I don't trim it until the shoe is done. The plastic will cover the shoe from dirty fingers and dirt on the working bench during the making but the main thing I use it for is to protect it from ink and wax. Before the plastic where available they used cloth instead.

I have never done this on a 1/2 welted but I guess you can sew the plastic into the seam, trough the insole and the lasting allowance, from ball to ball. That is the way it is mostly done on a 3/4 welted at the heel area. There will be less space left for cementing the sole in the waist but if the "dead guys" could trust the pegs I guess we could too.

[fneiii]

Riley, there is a model F Landis # 12 sole stitcher on Ebay -very inexpensive. It is out of Fort Collins, Colorado. It is listed under leather sewing machines or type in the item number-3121275116.
Frank

[rileycraig]

Frank,

Thanks for that information...I will check it out in just a few minutes.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

[rileycraig]

All,

Well, here I am again with another question...I am very close to purchasing a Pfaff 335 to side-seem with. The machine is in excellent condition, two years old, and the price is right. Now, it has a walking foot...will a machine with a walking foot get close enough to the side seem to sew it? I may not have phrased that correctly, but you know what I mean.

Any help is appreciated.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

[sarah]

Riley, I side-seam on a Pfaff 335. The person I bought it from put a device on it to keep an even distance from the edge. It has a compound walking foot. I have to be careful going from thin to thick at the vamp/counter line, but other than that, no problems. It doesn't sew as well as my other machines, but I don't think that is a function of the model, just the individual machine.

Sarah

[rileycraig]

Sarah,

Thanks for the response....I bought the machine today. I also had them install a guide to keep an even distance from the edge. I bought 207 for the top thread and 138 for the bobbin. When I got back to the shop I realized that the thread is polyester. I could use some advice on the size and type of thread you use, to side-seam, if you don't mind. I don't know much about polyester, but it seems to me that it stretches...I don't know.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

[Eisele's Custom Boots]

I would like to ask the same question as Riley did in March.
What size is the most used or best for side seaming?
Kevin

[tmattimore]

I try to do an authentic period boot boot so I use a 5 cord(346) top and a 4 cord(277)linen thread sewn at 7 to the inch. I have found linen has little or no stretch and thus I keep smiling to a minimum. I am not that familiar with polyester thread but I have been told it has come a long way from the days when it was like sewing with a bungee cord.
Tmattimore

[tom knowlton]

I haven't as yet seen any reference to a
Champion curved needle stitcher, and an wondering if one of these would be a big mistake to buy. Any comments or other help would be appreciated.