Welt

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
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lancepryor
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Re: Welt

#76 Post by lancepryor » Sun Feb 21, 2010 3:04 pm

Holly:

One other thought: absolute precision in cutting the welt is not imperative. After you sew in the welt, you will trim its edge anyway, so a small bit of variation in the pre-sewn welt is no big deal. A relatively straight edge will be sufficient and is not difficult to achieve with a ruler and a sharp knife.

Lance

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Re: Welt

#77 Post by athan_chilton » Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:32 pm

I've suddenly found myself confused about cements: ... is Duall 88 a petroleum based cement? And if so, should I NOT use it to attach outsoles when my handwaxed welt stitches are exposed around the forepart?? I was under the impression that this kind of cement might dissolve the hand wax. What cement do others use for attaching outsoles (that are going to be handsewn themselves, involving thread with some kind of wax on it?

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Re: Welt

#78 Post by romango » Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:50 am

Athan,

Duall 88 and other solvent based glues probably do dissolve wax, to some extent. This probably interferes with the glue's binding ability somewhat too. However, I have never had a problem with it holding up.

Using 2 coats of glue probably minimizes the effect of the wax..

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Re: Welt

#79 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:27 am

Thanks, Rick--this has been bugging me. I even had the idea of laying in a very thin strip of lining leather (same as the forepart filler) over the stitches, gluing it in place with latex or even Hirschkleber--then applying Duall 88 as usual to the resulting surface & proceeding to cement the outsole...just as a precaution. But I have never heard of anyone doing so, and what if that strip proved difficult to remove in case of needing to repair the inseam? But if you say you haven't had any problem with using Duall 88 maybe I am getting too concerned over this...

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Re: Welt

#80 Post by romango » Fri Nov 23, 2012 10:45 am

It's definitely something to be aware of. A thin coat of water based neoprene over the exposed thread seems like a good idea.

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Re: Welt

#81 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:23 pm

Water based neoprene?? Is there another name for it, and who might sell it?

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Re: Welt

#82 Post by romango » Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:36 pm

Weldwood contact cement is one. Available at any home building store.

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Re: Welt

#83 Post by dw » Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:01 pm

Huh! That's a new one on me...I thought Weldwood was solvent based. Learn something new everday.

Titan-DX (you can order it online) is most definitely water-based, however.

I don't bother to coat the welt stitches with anything special but you can mount the outsole with Titan-DX and If I am using a oily leather, I'll often coat the vamp leather in the waist with Titan...let that dry and then add another coat of solvent based. The Titan-DX sticks to oily leather much better than solvent based neoprene. (Won't eat hand wax either)

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Re: Welt

#84 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:03 pm

THANKS, both of you. Never thought of Weldwood, and don't recall hearing about Titan-DX in this specific application...

Two new recommendations to try, oh boy!! Thanks again. I'd looked in the archives but hadn't found this exact information.

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Re: Welt

#85 Post by kevin_l » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:16 am

After reading the prior posts, I picked up my can of Weldwood Gel.

"Contains Petroleum Naphtha, Methyl Ethyl Ketone and Toluene." Also, clean up is "Xylene" Keep away from flame.

I don't think that is WATER BASE, but then again I might be wrong.

It does work well as an adhesive, but does have a VERY STRONG ODOR.

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Re: Welt

#86 Post by romango » Mon Nov 26, 2012 9:06 am

What you want is Weldwood nonflammable Contact Cement. Neoprene Rubber Formula. In the green and black can.

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Re: Welt

#87 Post by poorboy » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:04 am

i think that this is the closest place to start this topic.
i have been having a problem with getting vibram soles bigger than 14 i dont know where one goes to get larger sizes. the 14 works sometimes. but if you want a spur shelf that is adequate then you have to start looking a other industries for rubber soling. then it doesnt have a pattern on the boottom and there is no brand recognition. alot of my clients like to see the yellow label on the bottom. there isnt a problem posed untill around a size 12 and up. if your doing repair and replace full welts on someones boot you cant get a sole to reach all the way. any thoughts on this issue. were all small operations. maybe we need to pool resources to generate some sort of buyers coop. my fear is that if we dont pose a demand then the supply will be gone when we need it.

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Re: Welt

#88 Post by elfn » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:29 am

I use sheet soling.

poorboy

Re: Welt

#89 Post by poorboy » Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:49 am

do you use sheet soling that is the same composition as the vibram 700? and at the price and size of the sheets how keep your overhead down. how well does it stitch on the curve needle and more importantly how well does it hold up in an industrial application. i got guys who wear my boots 6-7 days aweak and they aint dainty on boots. some of these guys are 250-300 lbs. and then equipment, tools, pack etc. and how well does it hold up in a forest fire type situation. it is my experience that the sheet soling they sell is not near as durable as the precut soles. and some of the sheets it is hard to get more than one pair out of it if its for a big guy. im sure im not the only one to run into this dillemma. lets help each other.

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Re: Welt

#90 Post by dlskidmore » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:03 am

The 700 is available in more than one compound. Do you know which one you're using?

http://www.vibram.us/catalog/PDFs/700.pdf

There are a variety of soling sheets:
http://www.vibram.us/repair/repair.asp?Product=Sheets

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Re: Welt

#91 Post by paul » Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:13 am

Your concerns about quality materials for the big sizes is valid. I'm in a pinch myself right now with a size 15 and spur shelf. I've had to resort to soling sheets.
I'd join the voices of makers wanting something better and bigger.
Paul

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Re: Welt

#92 Post by poorboy » Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:00 am

i use whatever the heck konomos sends me. i believe its the tygum composition. the main problem is the width in heel. the soling sheets they sell to us arent in my opinion thick enough. it seems that they need to be 40% thicker. These clients of ours arent spending chump change on their boots. my clients are all working folk, blue collar type. they are in their boots 7 days a week. they need to get something more beyond a great fit. i know that if you call some of the big companies in the north west they will tell you that they can get the 700 in size 16. why cant we? dollars. cubic dollars. in order for us to stay in this we need to be able to purchase what the big guys have. i may be paranoid, but i think that there is an insidious effort to force us out by means of exclusion. they dont want us because we put everything we have into our craft. they pay people piece meal and so there is no incentive for there workers to go the extra mile. but they have buying power. we need buying power. in a downed economy it will be hard pressed to find a financier. especially if you are just one guy. lets coop.

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Re: Welt

#93 Post by dlskidmore » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:41 am

"we need buying power. in a downed economy it will be hard pressed to find a financier. "

There is always kickstarter... Although it might be a bit complicated to get enough shoe makers together to fulfill the orders, you could use kickstarter to pre-sell shoes with this new sole type, then take the money to a fabricator to make the soles.

http://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/kickstarter%20basics?ref=nav

Vibram will pour custom soles in a large enough order. This sandal company did it recently: http://www.invisibleshoe.com/921/feeltrue/

The first step would be to find out what fabricators could handle the order, and what the minimum order and cost would be. You'd probably have to take the discussion off list once you started to figure out the particulars of which shoemakers will be participating and making which pledge rewards for what size pledges.

poorboy

Re: Welt

#94 Post by poorboy » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:22 am

this is helpfull information denise thankyou. it will most likely benefit me greatly. what does it do for the trade though? the issue here is not my financial security it is the security of our craft. without raw material we cant make anything. there are distributors that leaving the business because there is not enough incentive for them to stay in. leather is become thinner and less bodied. soles are only available to us in certain sizes. vibram allready makes what we need. they seem to only make available what is more popular to shoe repair though. i suppose that we could revert to cutting up old tires for rubber soles but even those are steel belted. thats not fun on the sanding machine. and the constant threat of delamination. maybe everyone on this forum uses leather soles only. i doubt it though. even leather soles are become less quality, less thick. i wish we could get together as a coop. elect a figure head and treasurer, make it leggit. email me if interested cause i dont about you all but i would like to do this work till the day i die. just a thought.

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Re: Welt

#95 Post by walrus » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:29 am

To All
I Just got off the phone With Ruby Leather Co in Milwaukee WI .And he said that he will sell to Custom Makers. He stocks all Vibram products in all sizes Sheet Stock as well as pre made blockers in sizes .The only requirement is that you buy at least three pair to make it worthwhile to handle the order .
The contact info for Ruby Leather Co.
Ruby Leather Co .
6125 W Bluemound Rd
Milwaukee WI 53213
Phone 414.778.2288
I Have used Ruby as a supplier for 36 years he is a good person honest and is a good finder for the trade.
We have to support these venders or we will lose them. Hope this helps.
Respectfully
Larry Waller
www.walrusshoe.com
Purveyor to the trade

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Re: Welt

#96 Post by sorrell » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:26 pm

Ruby is a good supplier. That's where I buy pedographs for my students.

Lisa

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Re: Welt

#97 Post by danfreeman » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:36 pm

Thank you, Larry and Lisa. I have been looking for this type of business, among a shrinking pool of unenthusiastic finders.

Dan

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Re: Welt

#98 Post by dlskidmore » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:32 am

"this is helpfull information denise thankyou. it will most likely benefit me greatly. what does it do for the trade though? "

Well it sounds like it's a moot point since Ruby has what you need. But the benefit to the trade of a group of craftsmen making a custom order of soles is
A) Makes the manufacturer aware of the demand, so that they might start to release the product without custom bulk orders.
B) Makes more customers aware of the availability and drive demand.
C) The group could profit enough from the endeavor to order a second batch of soles and make them more widely available outside the founding group. Whoever organizes would be distracted from the craft by becoming a middle man for other craftsmen, but the craft as a whole would benefit from the availability of materials.

poorboy

Re: Welt

#99 Post by poorboy » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:33 am

trevor at ruby wouldnt sell me size 16 #700 unless i bought a case. i did eventually buy a case but it happened to be with another finder by happen stance. being distracted from the craft is okay if it is in pursuit of the benefit of the craft. it doesnt stop at soles though. like i said before leather is not as good as it once was. i use horse but welts from a famous tannery and the quality was always consistent. then one day they sent me total junk and alot of it. i called them and it was basically take it or leave it. this is an isollated incedent but it goes to show that manufacturers dont care so much for us. if we where a greater force then we would have a voice. it wouldnt be in the manufacturers interest to ignore us. that would give our trade a stronger foothold and might get some of the made in china garbage off the market. which is also a humanitarian benefit.

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Re: Welt

#100 Post by dw » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:06 am

We have created Buyers' Consortia here on the CC on several occasions and they were a good deal for the participants although usually it was one or two people (the same people) handling all the paperwork and hassle every time.

But the real problem is that, when push comes to shove, no matter how premium and/or quality and/or respected the product, only a relatively few people ever actually take advantage of the opportunity.

What's more, even if a Buyer's Consortium ordered a full tannery run of insole shoulders from Baker, for instance, it's not really enough to make the tannery sit up and take notice beyond the cooling off period of perhaps a week. If the order isn't repeated every six months, say, it has little or no effect.

The better solution in my estimation, is simply that when a source becomes intractable spread the word.

I dealt with Horween (that "famous tannery" ) for nigh onto 35 years--paying a serious surcharge for every hide I ordered from them...ostensibly to cover paperwork and the hassle of dealing with a relatively insignificant customer.

And then one day not so long ago they told me that they didn't want to cater to individual orders and individual specifications regarding substance or colour, etc.. They referred me to a "retail" outlet that promised to be almost double in price and probably half (or less) in selection.

I have since quit dealing with them. And while my individual purchasing power doesn't really signify...for every person I tell, the aggregate significance ratchets up.

In this economy and in this Trade that might exert more leverage than relatively small and relatively infrequent collective purchases.

YMMV

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(Message edited by admin on January 30, 2013)

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