Welt

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lancepryor
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Re: Welt

#51 Post by lancepryor » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:22 pm

Kieran:

Are you hammering it square after sewing? The welt generally will not sit square after sewing unless you hammer or otherwise do something to square it up.

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Re: Welt

#52 Post by dw » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:46 pm

That's right...several 19th century grinderies offered tools that were kind of "L" shaped. They were called "welt beaters." The long part of the "L" was the handle. The shoe was held in the lap, insole up, and the tool was positioned under the welt so that the grain side of the welt was resting on the short part of the "L". This created a "table" on which welt was hammered from the grainside. This forces the welt to stand at right angles to the last.


Salaman's book Dictionary of Leather-Working Tools depicts the too in use in figure 2:60 (pp 87).

My old teacher had a variation he had made from a automobile engine valve fitted with a wooden handle. Worked good.

I have a Barnsley welt beater.

Tight Stitches
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Re: Welt

#53 Post by das » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:54 pm

Kieran,

While 5-6 oz. might do, I was taught the welt thickness needs to equal 1/3rd of the outsole's thickness, or for some classes of work the welt can be up to 1/2 its thickness--I have seen some English hand-sewns where the welt is almost as thick again as the sole, so it varies. Pick the thickness that suits the work, and do not be locked into just one welt thickness for all boots or shoes. There were nice little devices called "welt mills" (see Salaman) that were strapped on top of your thigh with the stirrup. The pre-cut strip of welting (usually belly off an insole shoulder or soling bend) was laid in the slot on top, a good sharp knife was placed in one of the mill's stair-step notches, and the welt pulled through to split it down to the exact thickness wanted. Afterwards it was skived off on the grain as you say, which allows the welt to fold down flat more easily by removing the tightness of the grain where the inseam sewing pierces it, than if you skived it off on the flesh, leaving the grain tight.

Besides "welt beating" as DW described (done with the welt damp or moist), alternatively you may turn the shoe upside down, laying the welt on the iron foot as an anvil, and tap it moderately hard on the sole-side to force it out flat. Also, most 5-in-1 cutters include a welt-pressing attachment on the top--clamp the work, with sole stuck, on under the pressing disc-wheel, and by turning the crank you feed the shoe under the pressing disc. to stick the welt flat to the outsole.

The other trick to getting a good welt, especially around the toe, is to take care while sewing it on. Hold the welt out flat, nearly in position as the awl enters it, piercing from the "holed" (pre-pierced) holdfast of the insole, particularly around the toe where it otherwise wants to lay flat, tight up against the upper, IOW sew it into position, rather than trying to bend or force it flat later. What is very useful here, too, is a "welt stick"--a short burnishing stick of wood with the tip fashioned into a blunted wedge shape (think a wedge of cheese on a handle), with which to pry the welt down and rub it out flat when stuck/cemented to the outsole.

However you flatten you welt out, it is always good to burnish the vamp up hard against the feather of the insole (above where the sole stitches will be), burnish the upper around the last's feather-line to define a good "corner", and burnish the face of the welt down flat to the sole all the way back into the crevice so formed, all the way to the sewing stitch, opening and defining the entire area you'll never get to as easily again once the sole is stitched. On the finished shoe, the upper should look as if it sits on top of the welt like a layer of a cake, and the last's feather-line should be nicely defined in the upper itself round the forepart.

PS--A perfectly good welt-beater can be fashioned from an old worn out 10" 4-in-hand shoe rasp. Toss it into the fire place to heat up and remove the temper. Carefully in a bench vise, cold bend it into a curved (not sharp bend) "L" at one end, then smooth off the top surface of the "L" on the sander.

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Re: Welt

#54 Post by kieran_ionescu » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:30 pm

Thanks everyone. The advice is super helpful.

I have attached a photo of the problem area. If you have anything to add after seeing it - please do.
10690.jpg
10690.jpg (174.37 KiB) Viewed 1557 times


Respectfully,
Kieran

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Re: Welt

#55 Post by dw » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:17 pm

Kieran,

Your problem area is the problem area for everyone. One approach is to do it like Al said and hold the welt as close to perpendicular to the vamp as possible as you hole the welt. Do not let it lay down and hug the toe of the shoe....hold it just like you want it to be when it is done and dry.

The way I was taught...and it accomplishes the same thing as what Al describes...is to "force" a little extra welt into the stitch. IOW, to effectively make the distance between the holes in the welt a little farther apart than they would naturally be. What this does is creates enough surplus along the edge of the welt that it can bend around the toe without needing to stretch.

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Re: Welt

#56 Post by romango » Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:46 pm

Really doesn't look to bad. A little bone knife along that area from the top can be helpful too.

- Rick

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Re: Welt

#57 Post by marcell » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:01 am

Kieran:
This is the "OMG" category for me. You cannot make a lasting like this! The welt is not for hiding those huge wrinkles, that is for holding the sole.

You should last separetely the toe puff and rasf it perfectly flat.

And an other idea:

use a bit thicker and stronger structured material for insole. If the insole is soft, you can hardly achieve hard edges.

I believe I already posted some tutorial about it, but again.. (BTW.. Shouldn't we keep those tutorials somewhere more easily achievable? hmm?)

I post some pics - maybe you can understand better from these than from my poor English:

Toe puff lasted - cut the top of the wrinkles
10700.jpg


rasp it flat (you can always go back to the previous phase, if you are not satisfied with the result..
10699.jpg


Then it should look like this. Sharp, perfect edges - this is the base for the good welting.
10698.jpg


put glue on, the turn the upper back to its place, and last.
10697.jpg


Then hammer down the wrinkles on the upper. I believe I have shown you different mehods to hide thise wrinkles - heel iron, extra nails, etc..
10696.jpg
10695.jpg
10694.jpg


Then make the welting...
10693.jpg


And voila! No wrinkles appear anymore on the upper, the welt stays flat and close almost 90 degree with the upper!
10692.jpg

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Re: Welt

#58 Post by kieran_ionescu » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:40 am

Marcell, the wrinkles are not from the lasting. I actually lasted it in the separate phases like you taught and to be honest it was probably the best lasting job I have ever done. Not all that different from what you posted.
10702.jpg


I think the problem, like the others suggested comes from the welt orientation while I am sewing or perhaps like you suggested bad insole material.

I'll keep at it.

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Re: Welt

#59 Post by dw » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:53 am

Kieran,

I come from a little different school and although I do things almost exactly like Marcel...up to a point...where I differ is that I usually cut a feather into the edge of the toe stiffener--to mirror the feather cut into the whole forepart of the insole. When I am done inseaming, I don't see those wrinkles at all but I do orient the welt as I'm sewing, so that may make all the difference.

There is also a tool known as a "toe beater" that is placed up against the vamp and hammered lightly. The effect is much like the photo above where Marcel is hammering the side and edge of the feather but the toe beater is used after inseaming.

Using the toe beater together with the welt beater, welt manipulation while sewing, and taking care to maintain a sharp edge at the feather, should eliminate most if not all of your problem.

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Re: Welt

#60 Post by marcell » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:02 am

Kieran - then you don't need my help anymore.

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Re: Welt

#61 Post by kieran_ionescu » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:15 am

As always, thanks everyone for the help. I will definitely use it on the next pair and I think it will make the difference.

Respectfully,
Kieran

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Re: Welt

#62 Post by janne_melkersson » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:38 am

Kieran,
to me it looks as if it is the tread that makes the bumps on your welt. To avoid this move the feather a bit back in the toe area, about the same distance as the toe puff is thick, and be careful with the angle of the awl. Depending of how you control the awl you can end up with the shoe "floating" on the welt or the shoe laying flat on the welt as in Marcel example. On your shoe it looks as the awl has come to far to the edge of the last with the bumps as a result sometimes this could end up with the stitches shown in the toe area.

Personally I like it when the shoe "float" a bit on the welt.

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on December 27, 2009)

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Re: Welt

#63 Post by dmcharg » Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:20 pm

G’day All,
After DW’s comment about his teacher using an old engine valve to flatten welts with, I thought yesterday I’d give it a go. I’ve hollowed out one side a bit, in order to better fit between welt and upper, polished the face and taken the edges off. An 8mm drillbit was just right for a snug (hammer tapping) fit in the wooden handle (made out of a piece of, eucalyptus, tomato stake), which I shaped to match the handles on my shoemakers ‘hot tools’. I also oriented it so that, from the rear, the working face is in line with the front right edge of the handle, which is the natural place, hand- work.

Please excuse the web-cam photo’s as we don’t have our own digital camera.

This shows it in profile, and the right hand side (working face) is thinner than the left .
10773.jpg


The bottom, polished up.
10772.jpg


Top, ditto. The centre is recessed;original casting.
10771.jpg


I had stuck the sole on earlier today, hammering the centre on the ‘cobbler’s last’, leaving the welt ‘unbeaten’ . Then the anvil was put in position, as below, the glue around the edge reactivated with a heat gun.
10770.jpg


And posed as though in use.
10769.jpg


DW's right, it works a treat and really enables you to bond the welt down tightly (if you're doing a cement construction verses a propper sewn sole, in which case you could use it for the discussed purpose as there's no need to glue the welt down Image ).

Earlier pics. of the shoe and it's inseaming will (if I've got time today) be in the Gallery.
Cheers
Duncan

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Re: Welt

#64 Post by jkrichard » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:47 pm

Al,
On the horse welt: a similar experience here. The NOC butts I get are hit and miss. I've taken to cutting a test strip and mock welting it. If the hide seems to dry, I use it for heel rands.

-Jeff
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Re: Welt

#65 Post by das » Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:16 am

Jeffrey,

My latest welting experiment has been Wicket & Craig of America's "chestnut" (nice color) oak-tanned skirting sides, 8 oz., which were recently on sale pretty cheap--no minimum quantity. Got about 100 1" welt strips from one side, which works out to around $1 per pair of welts. A wipe-down with some tallow and this stuff is very promising, if it doesn't cut through on tight stitching. It also makes great knife sheaths BTW.

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Re: Welt

#66 Post by jkrichard » Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:45 am

Al,
I had considered using skirting sides, my concern was the density of the fibers, which is why I opted for a hard-rolled horse butt... let me know your take on the 8 oz Wicket & Craig would ya?

Jeff
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Re: Welt

#67 Post by dmcharg » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:42 pm

G’day Rick,
This is what’s happening at the toe of our daughter Sion’s shoe.
Because I’ve given it a pointy toe that “floats” off the sole and the insole also comes to a sharp point, I’ve made the welt in two parts, ending in a diagonal cut at the toe.
See below.
10801.jpg



This was inseamed in place, making sure the two edges butted up tightly to each other.
10800.jpg
10800.jpg (56.99 KiB) Viewed 1557 times



The whole was glued with contact cement, hit with a heat gun, and the insole was then bonded to a leather sole, leaving the welt off the surface. Using an engine valve tool, as inspired by DW, I heated up the welt/insole edge and bonded them together also, with great success (thanks DW).
10799.jpg
10799.jpg (9.56 KiB) Viewed 1557 times



As this pair won’t have a sewn outsole I am now at the point of trimming up the profile and putting on the fine rubber tread.

Hope this clarifies things.

Cheers
Duncan

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Re: Welt

#68 Post by holly » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:32 am

Hello all.

Am I correct to assume that a draw gauge is the thing needed to make welt? If so, is the $50 Osbourne one really better than the $30 Tandy one? (There's also a Barnsley Sheffield on eBay for $360...that just makes me laugh.)

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Re: Welt

#69 Post by lancepryor » Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:54 pm

Holly:

I don't see why you need a draw gauge. I just use a straight edge to draw lines on the leather, then a sharp knife to cut the leather. You want the welt to be say 5/8 or 3/4 inch wide; for shoes, perhaps 20 inches long, though you'll want to measure the heel breast to breast distance to make sure.

Lance

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Re: Welt

#70 Post by dearbone » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:26 pm

Holly,

Lance is right on,you don't need the draw gauge(none essential),but you might need the groove cutter,that's the round(half circle or so) channel made on the flesh side of the welt to house the thread.

Nasser

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Re: Welt

#71 Post by lancepryor » Fri Feb 19, 2010 1:46 pm

Holly:

I don't know what the groove cutter tool looks like, but what I've found to work acceptably is a linoleum cutter (like those used for cutting linoleum to make block prints -- remember those from elementary or middle school?) see this: http://www.dickblick.com/products/speedball-linoleum-cutters/

You might need to sharpen the edge of the blades a bit, bit they will cut a groove in the leather. I also sometimes use them for things like making the groove in the insole inside of the feather in preparation for inseaming, and cleaning up the feather line after putting in my toe puff. Plus they come with a number of different size blades, so they provide some flexibility in application. All in all, pretty useful and inexpensive.

Lance

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Re: Welt

#72 Post by dearbone » Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:51 pm

Lance,

Here is what the groove cutter looks like,others may call by other names,The bolt in the middle controls the depth of the groove, turn on one side for going up for deeper groove/channel or turn the other side for going down for shallow groove/channel,it also has the casing around the blade and it serves as a guide by staying flat on the leather for consist groove depth.
11025.jpg

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Re: Welt

#73 Post by bjohnsonleather » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:37 pm

Holly,
Not to sidetrack the welt discussion, but some random thoughts of a guy who has way too many nice old draw gauges. The Tandy one is not on the same page as the older Osbornes that sell for around $50 on ebay usually. The new Osbornes are not as nice as the older ones either. The $360 Barnsley Sheffield is not a draw gauge. It is a plough gauge. Seems like the English and Australian influenced makers use them more. After I used one the first time to cut straps, I became a plough gauge fan. They are more ergonomic, and probably safer. I have two now and rarely pick up a draw gauge. Just to cut welts? Probably not worth it for the price. To cut a raft of straps - thumbs up on the plough gauge vs. any draw gauge.

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Re: Welt

#74 Post by holly » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:24 pm

OK, thanks for the good news. Somehow the thought of cutting two perfect, long parallel lines was intimidating me more than the welting part - I'm irrational like that...

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Re: Welt

#75 Post by tmattimore » Sat Feb 20, 2010 4:03 pm

Holly
I know it is kind of a zen thing but when cutting long straight lines try not to cut an inch at a time. Think of cutting the whole line with one motion.
As I always say you only get so many strokes in life so take long ones.
Tom

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