Thread

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#226 Post by jake »

The sole after closing the flap.
2707.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#227 Post by jake »

Here's the dacron.
2708.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#228 Post by jake »

I did something a little different with the dacron example. After I marked my 7 spi with my stitch wheel, I used a pegging awl to "start" my awl holes. I believe this helped in keeping my holes within my stitch groove, thus keeping my stitching straighter.
2709.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#229 Post by jake »

Just for comparison, here's an example of my curve needle sewing. The stitches look more "rope-like" in my opinion.
2710.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
petemonahan
1
1
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: peter
Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

Re: Thread

#230 Post by petemonahan »

Jake
Wonderful pictures! These make a couple of things much easier to follow for a beginner such as myself. Thank you!

Peter Monahan
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#231 Post by dw »

Jake,

Great job!! The stitches on the machine work do look more "rope-like." Al always told me that the stitches on hand work should look like little square beads--I guess you'd have to make the stitch length the same as the width of the flattened stitch to get that to work.

When I was fooling with this, I tried "channeling" the welt...ever so slightly. I thought that would keep the stitches in line and the channel would close up around the stitching a bit as well.

So what do you think? Is the linen that much "better" than the Teklon?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#232 Post by jake »

Peter,

Thanks! I appreciate the kind remarks. Don't forget to chime in with your thoughts and experience. I've received many personal emails concerning this topic, and I feel there's many who are interested.

Dee-Dubb,

Happy Birthday! Hope you don't feel any older! Image

Thank you too for your comments.

Here's what I've got to say thus far:

1. I like linen much better. For lack of a better term, Dacron looks "fake" to me. There's a plastic-look to it....darker.

2. With Dacron, the tapers come "ready-made". After some experimenting, tapering the linen 6 cord was fairly easy. You really have to be careful with your leading thread while applying your hand wax. If you're too aggressive, you'll pull it off. The "leader" is very important to making a nice waxed taper.

3. Use a stitch groove.

4. Pre-punch your awl holes with something like a pegging awl. You're actually only penetrating the welt.

5. Odd # of threads, 5 or 7 cord, will give you more of a bead. Even # of threads will lay flatter.

6. With linen, it's important to have a good hand wax. I make my own.

Personally, this was an exciting project for me. A tip of the hat goes to Al Saguto for his guidance. As for me, I'll always use linen. I'm not worried about rotting because the sole will need to be replaced by the time that rolls around, and the stitches are firmly buried into the sole.

I encourage people to ask questions. I'm sure it will bring up some areas I forgot to mention. Such as, with the linen, I waxed the middle of the thread with beeswax, not my hand wax.

Please keep in mind these suggestions are what worked for me. Someone else may have a better way of doing things. Thanks once again.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#233 Post by jake »

Almost forgot to post a pic of another tool I made with guidance from Tex Robin.....stitch prick pliers. I really like them, but don't make them too sharp!
2711.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
cmw
3
3
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Chris
Location: copenhagen, denmark
Been Liked: 1 time

Re: Thread

#234 Post by cmw »

Jake and Peter
Great pic and a good idea.

I like the idea of a groove in the welt to keep things in line. I do the same thing with an awl, just not as large as yours. I’ll try that on the next pair of leather sole shoes.

A little tip for Peter.
We make ours one treads and tapers at a time. The next Ply/layer/thread is tapered and then put up to the next.
1 Lock the ends first
2 Hang the cord on a hook on the wall.
3 Wax or what ever you use.
4 Twist tight one end at a time- but not the very end where the fishing line needle is attached.
5 Heat up and lock cord with hide
6 Wax again- not the ends
The reason we don’t wax the ends is we use something other than wax on the cord. It is black and has some tar in it. Once the needle is sanded waxed with this stuff, then you put the two together. After this wax with beeswax. Pull it on from the needle towards the middle of the cord.

No one ever told me the last few details about the twist being tight enough and putting wax on the cord from time to time. They both prevent easy breaking.

One last thing. If the taper on the last ply is very! long and thin that will help avoid the needle coming off.

A little help from one beginner to another.

------------------------
Jake

I like the pliers, I’ll have to remember to thank Tex for the idea. I tried it of late with something that looks like an awl. Needless to say I was unhappy with it.

CW
dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: Thread

#235 Post by dai »

Jake, thank you for showing the pictures. Everything is clear and good for me to learn from. When you mention the pegging aw, or whatever, you show one along with its use; great stuff.

Recently I saw mention of a thread making apron in a book that included a photo of a Yorkshire saddler using the apron. This little gadget is just a bit of leather long enough to roll out a thread, worn as an apron against the leg only; where you would normally roll the thread on. The saddler in the book wore this threading apron over his regular work apron.

I tried the idea and found it better than rolling thread down my trousers and getting all tangled in tweed; also I found I got enough control to just put a little tension on the thread as I roll it and have it separate into a long taper while I am rolling, rather than having to stop rolling and give the thread a tug when I thought it was near breaking point.

Also this week I was shown some "Waxtwin" ready made threads, hemp not linen, waxed (gas tar by the look of it). These had wire bristles attached. No sooner than I saw these I heard of someone else who uses them too. They were made in Chichester, and the package showed that the company offered a range of made up threads, from two to eight cord and would make custom threads on request. I wonder how long ago that was -or if they still exist. And where do they get the hemp today if so?
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#236 Post by jake »

Chris,

Thanks for your comments and instructions. They added several important topics I failed to include. Mucho Gracious! I believe Lisa is using a pair of stitch prick pliers now-a-days.

David,

Thanks! Leather apron! Great idea!

Never heard of the Waxtwin. I would assume with the wire bristles attached, they could be a little on the expensive side. As for hemp, that's a problem. Which lead me to experimenting with the prewound 6 cord linen. Hate to say it, but I see our supplies dwindling up slowly, but surely. Sad situation! I can't find any #10 linen to make my own threads in the States now. I assume that is what Chris is using to make his.

Anyway, thanks for your comments and suggestions. The leather apron is a dandy!
User avatar
petemonahan
1
1
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: peter
Location: Alliston, Ontario, Canada

Re: Thread

#237 Post by petemonahan »

Chris

Thank Jake - all I did was comment on his great pics. Thank you for the tips too. I'm nerving myself to make the leap to bristles, as I've only worked with needles till now - no fun at all on soles!

I do have the pricking pliers, as per DW's instructions last year and I've made a small quantity of "hand wax" / "coad" which I hope will work. At the moment it's in an unheated workroom and harder than a banker's heart, but when warm seems to have the requisite tackiness. Now all I have to do is get my butt in the saddle and my nose to the grindstone and "Just do it!".

Thanks again to both of you.
Peter
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#238 Post by jake »

Here's some samples of the linen thread we've been talking about, and how they are supplied. These examples are #10 linen thread which can be used to make any size thread you need.
2738.jpg


From left to right, the first is Henry Campbell's Best Common Shoe Thread and it comes in 50 gm balls. I just received this in the mail from a dear friend. My contact says he believes it's still manufactured in Belfast, North Ireland. The middle sample comes from Germany and was supplied through Arensberg & Sons. It's called Gruschwiz Best Superior. It's supplied in 25 gm balls and is a very good linen. I have only one left Image. To the far right is Barbour's #10 Linen Hand Shoe Thread, and it's supplied in 4 oz plastic containers with a convenient hole in the top for dispensing. Big Al mentioned this a couple of times, and was manufactured in the U.S. I hear it's a "discontinued" item.

Just thought I might clear up any confusion between these items.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: Thread

#239 Post by dai »

Al

Waxtwin made up threads are available from leprevo; see http://www.leprevo.co.uk. See threads or the .pdf catalogue there.

The sample I was given by a local repairer (in New Zealand) is hemp thread, wire bristles and black coal tar waxed (seemingly).

Thought for the day: winter or summer wax?

The sizes specify the length of the made up thread in inches and the number of cords e.g. 144/8 is 144 inches long 8 cord.
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#240 Post by jake »

Hello David,

Could you tell us what the nomenclature "Linen 18/3" means?

Thanks for the contact and your help!
dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: Thread

#241 Post by dai »

Jake

Linen 18/3 I suppose is linen (as opposed to hemp) 18inches long 3 cord. Why only 18 inches long? -patching/repairing perhaps. The packaging my hemp thread came in shows lengths ranging from 65 inches to 144 inches, cords from 2 cord to 8 cord, and the following range of uses: patching 65/2; looping/bracing 65/4; looping/welting 65/6; H.S.Ladies (pair) 90/4; H.S.Gents (pair)130/6; H.S.Gents (single) 72/8; welting 144/8. H.S= handsewn, I guess. The individual threadsize is not mentioned; and since hemp uses a different thread sizing system to linen (according to Plucknett), then this witholding of thread size is perhaps good for general mental health.

This range of threads (from the packaging of my sample) differs from that on leprevo, perhaps because it is an older range.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#242 Post by dw »

David,

I visited the leprevo site, mostly out of curiosity and went to "threads" as you suggested. But I didn't see anything 144 inches long. Have they discontinued it? Or do they have it in another section?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
tomo

Re: Thread

#243 Post by tomo »

Hay Jake, DW, David
Some thoughts/observations
I trained as a saddler - some Western but mostly English. We usually buy synthetic thread for hand sewing nowadays, but sometimes we need a seriously stout thread for sewing in the back of a panel (English saddles, Australian stock saddles etc) so we hand roll them usually using Barbours linen thread and make up a 5-6 cord thread with it.
Each strand is looped over a hook in the bench 'til you have the number of strands you need - you hold all of the ends made so far in one hand, then wax the strands en masse, not forgetting the bit behind the hook. Move up to the hook, seperate the two 'halves'. Hold on to one bunch of ends and roll the other bunch down your thigh twisting the cords into a thread, then wax the whole thing again. Similar I guess to what you folk do now?
I've worked a lot on old harness and saddles over the years, and it's amazing how the stitches can be worn off just leaving the little thread 'rivets' behind yet the leather still holds together, this riveting effect doesn't seem to happen with the modern synthetic threads.
I don't usually need an apron for rolling thread, but some trousers work better then others. An 'ol boy I worked with once said that the first six months of a saddlers apprenticeship was spent just rolling threads - moving from one tradesman's bench to the next rolling what was wanted, and you needed an apron then!
Also, it helps if you lick your palm some and sort of slip or skid your hand sideways as you initially roll the thread to part it. When it's twisted sufficiently the thread doesn't twist up on itself. When you roll it down your thigh if you're doing it right you can't feel it part, and the taper is long and fine.
While I'm here, I'd like to say that the work you guys and girls are doing is amazing, it leaves me gob smacked! You set a high standard.
Tomo.
dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: Thread

#244 Post by dai »

DWFII and Jake

The sample I have is a 144/8 waxtwin, probably old stock, given me by a local repairer, not neccessarily originating from leprevo.

Jake, I thought you were asking about a 18/3 waxtwin from the catalogue (which wasnt to hand when I read your post). Perhaps you were asking about 18/3 as a non waxtwin i.e. a general thread measurement -not waxtwins own product numbering system. Thats out of my field as a mere owner of a paper bag with a sample in it. My guess is 3 cords of "number 18" linen thread. I've seen Campbells No9, and Barbours No15 shoe threads. Do the numbers 9 and 15 have meaning? Lets see.

There are different general numbering systems for linen, cotton and hemp according to Plucknett (Introduction to the Theory and Practice of Boot and Shoe Manufacture pp122-126, 1916 edition) and I quote:
Since there are only 300 yards of flax yarn to a "lea" or "lay", and the number of leas to a pound coincides with the number of the yarn, it can be understood why there is so much difference in the number of cotton and linen threads of similar size.

Metric units anyone?
dai
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2011 9:00 am
Full Name: David Kilgour
Location: South Island, New Zealand

Re: Thread

#245 Post by dai »

Tom

Thanks for saying about the saddlers method of thread making. It was a saddler showed me threadmaking, same method as yours. I wonder if it is the thread or the wax or both that makes those 'rivets' persist once the surface thread is worn away.

A good point about licking a hand to ease the rolling of thread. Right now I am making two potions on the stove, one is for composition printers' rollers and the other is for thread wax. They both look exactly the same while cooking. The prefered licking mixture is the one for making printers rollers, containing mollases, glycerine and glue mix -as opposed to licking the wax which is gas tar, resin and olive oil in my recipe.

I had a little visitor come to stay here, and she left things hidden all over the house for me to find. When she had left I was still finding things, and one day I discovered a little brown paper bag of sugared pineapple in a good hiding place. Cough, splutter, choke ... it was a bag of pine resin I had collected and put somewhere safe so kids wouldn't eat it!
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#246 Post by jake »

Tom,

Welcome! Thanks for your input!
Similar I guess to what you folk do now?


Yes sir, it is! Great point concerning the "linen rivets". Right you are again, in my humble opinion. I've been doing saddle work for 20 plus years, and I've seen what you're talking about many times. That's why I still hand sew a lot of linen in my saddle work.

David,
I wonder if it is the thread or the wax or both that makes those 'rivets' persist once the surface thread is worn away.


In my opinion, it's probably both. I've waxed dacron, or poly, and you just don't get the tack-i-ness as you do with linen.

No....I wasn't talking about the waxtwin. I'm just not sure about the linen 18/3. Your guess may be on spot.

I had a good laugh concerning the pine rosin. You tickled the $#&@ out of me! You must have a sweet tooth!

Thanks once again!
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#247 Post by jake »

Tom and David,

My mentor, D.W. Frommer II, taught me a cool way of making up threads using #10 linen. It entailed winding the linen around your hand and elbow. Let's say you wanted a 8 ply waxed linen thread. You would run the linen between each finger for the # of plys (8). You would "tip" each ply at the thumb....heck, I wish I could explain it, but it's the slickest way of making a thread approximately 12' long.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#248 Post by dw »

All,

Jake, the method I was taught, and taught you, is called "skeining off." It can be used for any length of thread. It pretty hard to describe in a short post but it has it's advantages, number one being that everything is contained right there close to your body. So you never have to stand up or move from where you're working/inseaming.

In the old days, shoemakers had little containers shaped like beehives that covered the balls of linen and from which the linen was pulled as it was skeined off. I've got a little box that holds two balls and has two holes in the lid.

Essentially, as Jake said, I wrap two strands of yarn from my thumb around my elbow and then back to my thumb for two stands one yard long. (distance from thumb to elbow is roughly 18 inches for most folks). If I want two strands two yards long I'll wrap from thumb around elbow and then between thumb and forefinger, around elbow and then between forefinger and ring finger and then around elbow and then back to thumb. If I want four strands two yards long I repeat the passes between thumb and forefinger and forefinger and ring finger.

Eight strands 4 yards long (twelve feet/144 inches) goes four passes between all fingers. Ten strands four yards long goes five passes between all fingers.

Making the taw is a bit tricky especially with hard twisted linen but once you get the hang of it, it's dead simple and again is right there ...to hand, so to speak.

To do that, I slip the palm of my hand under each strand just behind the thumb and, with a lifting, sliding, rolling motion unravel or fray each strand. Stagger all all strands on one end and work that offset down to the other end and voila! you have a ready thread. You can even wax the thread still sitting on your duff.

Speaking of wax...I was always taught (and experienced) that coal tar (gas tar?) products would rot linen. I used to make a coad of medium pine pitch, pine rosin (both have antiseptic/antibacterial properties) and beeswax, sometimes cod oil. A recipe I got from Al Saguto. I wouldn't even use paraffin...a bias I have to this day. But paraffin is derived from coal tar.

Now, of course, I'm using Teklon--a dacron thread and I don't much worry about coal tar in the wax.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#249 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,

Nicely done! I was hoping you would chime in here. Thanks Ol'Buddy! Image

And I meant to tell ya....your bristle is the nicest I've ever seen! It looks like you couldn't jerk that bristle off for love nor money. Makes me want to go back to splitting bristles. Good job!
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#250 Post by dw »

As long as were on this subject I have several questions...

First, what is the difference between line yarn and tow yarn?

Second, I've read that hemp is better for inseaming and stronger as well...Yay? Nay?

I have some 20/1 line hemp that came from a friend. I don't know where he got it, but it may be available. Now, I have it from some fairly reputable sources (my wife who is a spinner) that 20/1 indicates, first, the guage of the yarn and second the number of plys. The guage is measured by how many ounces/skeins of yarn it takes to equal a certain yardage, ie 20 ounces equals 500 yards...so #20. This stuff I have is, in fact about half as thick as #10 linen yarn. So you'd need 10 strands to make the equivalent of a 5 cord waxed end. Looks and feels pretty strong.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Post Reply