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Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
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#276 Post by dai »

The "Guild of Corders" sounds interesting. These are the ropemakers. There is a table of strength comparisons including hemp and flax on http://www.rope-maker.com/pennsicxxix.html This shows hemp and flax being of equal strength, presumably "all other things being equal" for the measurement.
shoestring

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#277 Post by shoestring »

Both demonstrations of waxed ends by Jake & DW were impressive and understandable for me to try.
My next enlightment is, what's the better of the two evils,is it the "the pitch & rosin"or the mixture given by Jim Bultsma,because I will be trying to make both blends once I gather all the materials. There have not been an explosion in the labortory since Igor left.Or is it the makers choice and the climate their in.And then could be 6 in one hand or a half dozen in the other.

Ed
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#278 Post by jake »

Dee-Dubb,

You know.....I was lying in bed and thought, "Darn..I never mentioned his nice photos." They are great! I was so tied up thinking about your technique, I forgot to mention it.

Outdoor setting? You betcha! Especially if you have flourescent lights. That's where you're getting your yellow tints, I bet.

You? Dumb bootmaker? Bootmaker "Extor-i-nair"! Dumb.....I don't think so! You da'Man!

Tom,

You were right! I go to bed early. You know, I've got to get my beauty sleep. Image
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#279 Post by das »

I recall Frank Jones told us about Thermowax, and what it was made from, etc. It was not pine-tree pitch. Check out the archives, or Forum I CD.

As a bagpiper, too, (funny how these things bleed together) I can tell you that the "yellow hemp" for lapping the slide-joints for tuning the dones, and other joints on a bagpipe, is around 10/1. Whether it's cannibis hemp, or flax "hemp" is anybody's guess. The Thermowax (I use my own shoemakers' wax instead) is only used on the ends, to get the first winding around the wooden bit to stick. The rest is waxed with beeswax, and I top it off with a smear of pure lanolin for lubrication--but I digress into pipeology...

The hemped joint that rots fastest on a stand of pipes is the one at the base of the blow-stick, where it plugs into the "stock", or wooden socket tied into the leather bag, because it gets soaked with "mild enzymatic fluid" (AKA spit) from playing. But even at that, with regular playing, the yellow hemp only needs to be replaced maybe once a year.

The yellow hemp can be got from Windmill English Saddle, too. BTW, their website was never very active--just a place-marker. They're still going strong too.
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#280 Post by das »

David,

Very cool info. Thanks.

BTW, maybe this oughta be moved over under Threads?
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#281 Post by jake »

Tom,

I'm not familar with Stockholm Tar....sorry.

David,

D.W. and me just love our cameras. They definitely help getting a point across.
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#282 Post by jake »

Ed,

Thanks for the compliments. I truly enjoy talking shop and learning. Yes learning, because it makes you think "why" you do "what" you do.

As to which wax I prefer....well I can tell ya this much. My basic hand wax prior to Oct/03 was:

Cobbler's hand wax from (Jared Holt Brand)
pine rosin
pine pitch
beeswax

It was a black wax, and I started having problems with it drying out. When this happens, you get all this black dandruff flakes on your tops during the inseaming process. One reason I started "sealing" all my waxes. If your wax is too dry, you definitely DO NOT need to make up your threads for any length of time prior to inseaming.

In Oct/03 I tried a batch of Jim's recipe, but with a little modification:

Atomic wax (2 parts)
pine rosin (4 parts)
beeswax (2 ozs)
lanolin (2 ozs)
olive oil (2 tbls)

All these ingredients are approximately and yield a yellow wax. Let me give you a pic of the Atomic wax, because there's no mention of "Atomic" on the package.
2753.jpg


So far....I like this wax. In the above proportions, it's definitely a winter wax. I sent D.W. some to evaluate. I respect his opinion, and wanted some feedback as to where I'm "at" with this recipe. It may need some modification.

Hope this helps answer your question.
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#283 Post by dw »

Ed,

You know of course that there is no definitive answer...for any given problem, there may be as many answers as there are bootmakers. That said, a few observations...

One of the prime characteristics we look for when making or buying handwax is "grabbiness," for lack of a better word. If the stitch does *not* lock up almost immediately when you stop pulling on the thread...like if you accidentally drop, or lose your grip on a thread...then the wax doesn't have enough rosin or pitch in the mix. This is a very important aspect because it guarantees that the final stitches will remain tight even while the insole/outsole is flexing and being abused.

The traditional recipes all end up pretty grabby. But because they contain pine pitch and rosin they also have somewhat of an antiseptic nature--they will protect the thread from the bacteria that is sure to develop in the hot moist micro climate of the shoe/boot. Those bacteria *will* eat the linen fibers.

Jim Bultsma's recipe is fairly grabby. It too contains some rosin...how much depends upon you and the proportions that you use in making the mix. But it also contains the hot wax--a proprietary commercial compound of unspecified ingredients, but which I suspect contains some petroleum based products. As I said, in an earlier post, I was always taught that petroleum based products would rot or accelerate the deterioration of natural fibers. I don't want to tell you that that assertion is "God's truth." I don't know. I don't have any scientific evidence to support it. But I've seen many pairs of commercial boots whose cotton seams have rotted out after an application of two of a petroleum based waterproofing dressing...such as Hubbards ( a long time favorite here in the Pacific NW. )

OK... that's the background...

Now with Dacron thread, such as Teklon, we don't need to worry about the tread rotting--not from bacteria, not from petroleum. So almost any recipe that has the required "grabbiness/tackiness." I use a variation of Jim's recipe on my Teklon threads.

With linen or hemp, I would think you'd want to stay with recipes that were rosin based and stay away from anything--any ingredient-- that was suspect.

As for climate...there used to be winter waxes and summer waxes made with pitch and rosin. the difference was the proportions of softeners--tallow, oil or beeswax. You want a harder wax in summer or in warmer latitudes simply to make using the wax more comfortable.

One final thing...at the risk of harping...I got off on a tear recently and ever so lightly ran a block of paraffin over a set of waxed strings. I mean it was a "wish and a promise," it was such a light coating...the upshot? The wax on the strings lost *all* tackiness. I couldn't tighten a stitch down worth a darn.

Save the paraffin for birthday candles. Image


Tight Stitches
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#284 Post by norwegian »

To all,
The Barbours Single Linen Shoe Thread #10 and the Thermowax in black, as Al is mentioning, are available at the following addresse:
Marshall Coppin Ltd.
9 Kimpton Road,
Sutton, Surrey,
SM3 9QL,
England
Telephone: 0181-641 6050
Fax: 0181-641 5580
E-mail: marscop@aol.com

Until next time
JPM
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#285 Post by jake »

Jan,

Sure do appreciate the information! Good to hear from you. Take care!
shoestring

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#286 Post by shoestring »

Jake I will attempt my hand at making a batch of the wax you made in 10-03.Boil each ingredient individual are all togather. And as for cooling it I will follow the steps in other post I read on making wax.As for the "paraffin"on my first attempt at inseaming I started out with pre-waxed thread and after a couple of slippery stitches I knew that was the wrong stuff.No "grabbiness" as you call it.Thanks for all the good information and as for THINKING I will let it rest come Sunday.
Ed
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#287 Post by jake »

Jan,

I've been told by a very reliable source that Marshall Coppin has been shut down for nearly two years. They provided the following information as a replacement:

Leather & Grindery Supplies Ltd.
147 High Street
New Malden
Surrey KT3 4BH
England
tel: 020 8942 1979
fax: 020 8949 5887

Take care!
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#288 Post by das »

All,

My current supplier for "best common" #10 shoe thread, is HCC board-member:

Peter Schweiger
www.taylormadeshoes.co.uk
4 Paddington Street
London W1U 5QE
England
Tel: 0207 935 4149

Peter tells me this morning that he'd be happy to factor UK shoe thread to guild members. The current lot he's shipping me is coming through in 250 gram spools, rather than the traditional little 2 oz. balls. I haven't seen any yet to say if it's the same/different as the stuff from Barbour in the plastic jars. He's willing to handle sales with credit cards through his secure website.

He's investigating how stable the manufacturer is against future supply. As soon as I know more, I'll post it.

My lastest batch of the stuff in plastic jars came this week from AGS in a box of a dozen marked: "Coats North America"; "10HB Natural" "Natural Glaze", "Left Twist", 4 oz. spools. The little jars read: "Barbour's Hand Shoe Thread, Pure Flax, no.10--4 oz."; "Coats Barbour, Hilden, Lisburn BT27 4RR" [that's Northern Ireland]
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#289 Post by dw »

Al,

This is good news! All thanks to Peter and thanks to you for sharing that.


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#290 Post by jake »

Al,

Good job!

Peter,

We sure do appreciate the help. Take care!
cdeats

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#291 Post by cdeats »

I am Chuck Deats, absolute amateur newcomer. Have been a spectator for a while. Thanks to all of you for all the information, hints, etc. posted on the forum. Just finished third pair of full Wellingtons. First pair--disaster, bought DW's book, second pair---wearable, Third pair---OK if you don't know any better. Using homemade lasts, homemade tools and leather from the big box stores.

If some one buys a case of that #10 linen thread, I would certainly be interested in a spool or two. Currently using Coats & Clark cotton polyester button thread, eight, ten, or twelve strands as needed. It does not fray as well as the pictures but with hammering and scraping it will hold a fishline bristle. Finally learned how to that, Thanks again for the pictures. Comments on the life of this thread would be appreciated. The 100% polyester thread did not seem to hold the wax well.

My E-mail address is chasdeats@yahoo.com
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#292 Post by dw »

Chuck,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy. Sounds like you're hooked. Image

I can't comment on your Coats and Clark...I've never used it. But regarding the 100% dacron/polyester thread...you're right, it doesn't hold the wax near as well as softer, more organic yarns. But then it doesn't need to. One of the main reasons for using a wax...but, of course, not the only one...is to inoculate organic threads from bacterial attack. The poly doesn't need that, because it is synthetic.

The other reason is to produce a good, sound, lock when the stitch is tightened down. This may be even more critical with synthetics because they tend to stretch. I've been experimenting with a new(?) handwax formula that is comprised of rosin, lanolin and beeswax...only. It is very "tacky" and clings to the dacron pretty well...no complaints so far...but is not so brittle as to flake off the thread when it is flexed. I posted a rough recipe just last week, I think it was.

I admire you for mastering the "Art" (?) of bristle splitting and your desire to switch to linen thread. I started with linen and I'm glad I did. But I'm also satisfied with the dacron. In fact, as I explore the characteristics that the new wax formula brings to the mix, I like it better and better. This, after having used almost nothing but dacron for about ten (?) years now.

Good luck, if we can help...just holler.

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#293 Post by jake »

Welcome Chuck!

I haven't ordered any linen yet, but still have some contacts who haven't contacted me. I'll let ya know if I order a case.

If you want a handwax that'll stick to the polyester, try D.W.'s recipe he recently posted. It's pretty darn good.

Why don't you start on the hard style first? Image Starting out with the Full Wellington is a pretty tall order. Congratulations to you!
erickgeer

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#294 Post by erickgeer »

I would also be interested in the Linen thread if you are looking for buyers. I have a question though (two of them).
1) I have read through a lot of the postings on stitching outsoles, and I haven't been able to figure out if people are using the same wax for this as inseaming? The samples I have seen look like they would be beeswax - I am collecting the supplies to make hand wax - do I need to make two different kinds?
2) Is there a good weight of thread to use for both inseaming and outsoling? My neighbor got his hands on what looks like a light weight, bleached linen cord, the only marking on the spools was #4 - we burned some and it was definitely a natural fiber - smelled more like wood.

Thank you
Erick Geer Wilcox
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#295 Post by jake »

Erick,
do I need to make two different kinds?


The short answer is no. But you must understand that most people use a curved needle machine to sew their outsoles on. In this curve needle machine, it usually has a pot for either liquid wax or thread lube. In the old days, they actually used a hard wax which had to be heated and melted in the pot before the machine was used to stitch.

As to hand sewing the outsole on, I've used beeswax and linen with good results. I don't see why you couldn't use D.W.'s new "blonde" recipe on the linen, or dacron, to sew on the outsole. You definitely would get a tighter stitch using this wax. Then it could do double duty for inseaming and outsole stitching. I also plan to use this new wax to sew up my sideseams.
Is there a good weight of thread to use for both inseaming and outsoling?


In my opinion, no. Outsole linen, or dacron, is much too light. When I was making my own linen inseaming threads, we would take 9 lengths....that's 9 cord. 50% more size of linen used to hand sew an outsole on (6 cord). By the way, I've started to use 7 cord for outsole stitching now, because I personally think it gives me a prettier stitch. A #6 linen cord lays flatter.

Just my take on the questions. Hope it helps.
shoestring

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#296 Post by shoestring »

Ok all where can I buy a sguare awl blade that was requested to sew outsoles or will a regular stitching awl give the same results.
Ed
erickgeer

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#297 Post by erickgeer »

I went to my shoe repair supplier today and I found that they have a whole bunch of Barbour's "Pure Flax Sinew" the box says 8 cord, would that be thick enough? he says that they bought up a huge lot when it was discontinued, due to it being too thick for the machines. ?
I also have something that is more of a tan color, tha tcounts 9 threads - I was told when I bought it several years ago that it was linen, but there is no label on the spool - I stopped using it for some stitchdows I was trying at the time, because it kept breaking on me. I didn't know what I was doing at the time, and had never heard of anything but beeswax - is there a way to tell if I should just throw it out?
2761.jpg


Thanks,
Erick
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#298 Post by jake »

Ed,

As you may know, there's basically three different awls used in shoe/bootmaking. They are: square, sewing, and inseaming awls.

The "square" awl you requested information on was used to hand sew the outsole on. It's very unforgiving. I no longer know where a person can buy some. I've been using a 3" regular "sewing" awl for my outsole work, and I'm happy with the results. The "sewing" awl and the "inseaming" awl look very similar, with the "inseaming" awl more deeply curved.

As you may heard of recently, George Barnsley & Sons have closed their company. They were the company who provided me with all my awls. It's still up in the air if a family member will start carring the awls or not. Maybe somebody will jump in here and give us an update.

Here's a pic for those who aren't familiar with the different awls. The "square" awl is sharpened in the vertical plane, while the "sewing" and "inseaming" awls are sharpened in the horizontal plane. Thus, allowing the "square" awl to put more stitches in the same amount of space.
2762.jpg
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#299 Post by jake »

Erick,

We all have personal opinions here, so I'll give ya my 2 cents worth and bow out for other comments. I would never use linen thread to inseam a shoe/boot knowing what I know now. It rots and it's hard to pull stitches out for rewelting/repairing.

8 cord, or equivalent, is a little light for a working boot, but probably would suffice for a lady's boot or dress boot.

If the stitching on the outsole is 5 or 6 spi, I guess 8 cord would work to sew on the outsole.

Seems to me, you're trying to narrow your threads down to one. I'm all for cutting inventory, but I personally believe you're gonna need two different size threads here.

One more thing I'm in the process of doing, if I can get my handwax like I want it.....I may cut out linen all together. And the way this handwax is acting, I'm almost there.

Hope some more people jump in here.
shoestring

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#300 Post by shoestring »

Jake,since you plan to cut out "linen" than what do you plan to turn to,what size,and will you be
using the samething for outsoles but a different weight.And I notice the demo you gave using the stitching awl works for me as for the inseaming awl blades a feller gave me several years ago with me having no use for them until now.
Thanks
Ed
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