Thread

[Allen Miller]

Allen Miller, milertac@ctaz.com

DW,

What number monofiliment do you use? 30lb or more?

Allen

[dw]

Allen,

It really depends. I don't believe in buying the top quality mono for this. Not only does the cheaper stuff seem to split easier, but the best quality mono is designed to give maximum strength for minimum diameter--it is designed for fishing, after all, and not for serving as a quasi boar's bristle.

So the cheaper stuff tends to be thicker at lower tests ("test" is the rated weight, in pounds,that the line will take before breaking). Thus 30lb. test might very well be eminently usable in the right brand...and too skinny in another brand.

Then too, some mono is very limp--that's another "quality" characteristic for the more expensive fishing lines. Some brands of mono might be too soft to make a good bristle even at 50lbs.

Best bet is to look at a boars bristle and try to get mono that is similar in diameter and stiffness. If you do that, neither the cost nor the test matters.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

All,

I just received a small spool of dacron/polyester thread from Maine Thread and Machine. I ordered size 13 cord (it's actually comprised of 8 discreet cords) and that turns out to be about the right size for inseaming men's boots. This thread is waxed and comes in ten foot tapers...if you want tapers. But I ordered a continuous spool. It too is waxed, presumably with a synthetic wax such as paraffin.

To test it, I cut off a thirteen foot section and dropped it in a small container of odorless kerosene. I left it sit several hours and then wiped off the excess wax. You might want to repeat this process several times...with less time in between.


Then I hung the thread up to dry--the kerosene evaporates leaving a dry unwaxed thread. Then I separated out all eight cords at one end of the 13ft. strand. I cut each of these cords so that they were staggered over a distance of about eight inches. Then I took a scraper--you could use a knife on edge--and quickly frayed, and thinned, the ends of each strand. The end result was a beautiful taper on each end. And despite the laboriousness of this description, the process took very little time...actually maybe less than dewaxing and tying a very small knot between two six foot tapers.

After waxing the thread with a rosin based handwax, I ended up with the holy grail of inseaming tapers--a non-rot, super strength, perfectly tapered waxed end 12 foot long.

Maine Thread and Machine sell these spools for roughly $12.00 a pound, with two pounds being the minimum order. The tread comes in a whole rage of colors from pure white to natural to red, raspberry and turquoise and from 4 cord to 13 cord.

Well worth a look.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[charlie]

Would you recommend this over the Ludlow 12.9 HMP?

Do you know if they have the thread without the wax?

[dw]

Charlie,

Welcome to The Crispin Colloquy, by the way. I saw an earlier post of yours but was deflected from answering, or doing my "cocktail party host" bit, at that time. So...let me be the first....

I don't know that there's a lick of difference between the Teklon 13 cord and the Ludlow 12.9 HMP. But Ludlow won't sell in small quantities. I called them right after I got back from Santa Fe and they started talking about 500 pounds minimum or some such nonsense.

Despite the fact that you owe me some spooled poly ...no hurry...I ordered 2 pounds of the 13 cord spooled Teklon yesterday, and 2 pounds of the 7 cord. That's how much I like it.

I think the wax is little denser than what Ludlow uses and I am finding that I literally have to scrape the wax off with my thumbnail--just pull the kerosened thread through your hand with the thumbnail facing out and the wax comes oozing off--no big deal, but I don't think either outfit will make or sell it unwaxed. You could ask I guess.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[rosynay]

DW

Need an address for Marine Thread and
Machine.

Thanks!
Rosemary

[jake]

OOPS....Sorry

Try this: Maine Thread

Jake

P.S. Admin: Please delete the above post.

[jake]

Lisa & Kevin,

Can you share your final analysis of the rayon thread from Madeira (www.madeirausa.com)?

Thanks!

Jake

[Lisa Sorrell]

D.W.,
Do you have any idea WHY the tapers and this thread has wax on it? Is it used for some other application where that wax is actually needed? Or does someone think they're being helpful by coating it with that stuff? I'm not too excited about the idea of scraping wax and kerosene off the thread with my bare hands. Kerosene can't be too much less toxic than toe box solvent.

Hi, Charlie!

Lisa

[Lisa Sorrell]

Jake,
I can't speak for Kevin, but I'm lazy and resistant to change, and I've never put forth the effort to try it.

Lisa

[charlie]

Just got off the phone with Russ Vallee, third generation in the business. I ordered two 1 lb. spools of 13 cord white Teklon, waxed, braided polyester at $12.13 per lb. and 1 gross of 72" tapers also 13 cord white Teklon at $12.31 per gross. 78" tapers would be $13.31. They cannot do 12' tapers because of their manufacturing process; in fact there upper limit was 10'.

We talked about selling them unwaxed or changing the wax mixture. He said that it would not be practical to add either rosin or pitch to their blend. They cannot sell them unwaxed since the strands are waxed before the braiding and the wax is essential to their manufacturing process.

He did note that they had had a lot of input from both bespoke makers and factories doing hand-sewn shoes when they formulated their wax. He thought their formula had been very well received and would do a very good job of blocking moisture in the awl hole.

BTW, they do not take credit card but are happy to do COD. An alternative is to charge it to your UPS account if you have one, thus avoiding a COD charge. Since we do a large volume of outbound UPS shipping, that worked for us.

I am looking forward to comparing their tapers to the Ludlow tapers.

DW: What's your reaction to their wax? Would it make sense to simply rub their waxed taper with a blend of beeswax, rosin, and pitch over the top of their mixture?

[dw]

Lisa,

I understand that the poly tapers were originally used for sewing mocassin plugs and other "hand sewn" casual footwear.

As for the kerosene, I have used it for most of my career to clean the wax of my machines, my hands and my tools. I grew up around rural folk who swore by it to prevent a cut from becoming infected. I've used it that way myself many times..it works. I really don't have any scientific data one way or th eother but I'd be real sceptical that it was all that toxic...especially if used as directed.

Charlie,

"Blocking moisture" is not not the only, nor even the most important, function of the wax. The wax seals the hole itself, yes, but good hand wax is "sticky"--it "grabs" and prevent s the thread from slipping. I don't like the paraffin. I think you dilute your hand wax if you burnish it into and over the paraffin. Some do it, however.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

BTW,

Rusty just sent me an email in which he said that they *can* spool the thread without wax...it's just the tapers have to be waxed.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[Eisele's Custom Boots]

Jake
I tried the thread from Meadaris and found it to break or frey about every inch of stitching.
I can't tell you why it did this though, it might be in my machine, or it may be the thread.
Kevin

[jake]

Lisa & Kevin,

Thanks for bringing us up to speed in this area!

Jake

[dw]

Brethren and Sistren,

I got my spooled, unwaxed Teklon yesterday. I guess I'm as green at this as anyone--I've never heard of dacron thread of this kind either on a spool _or_ unwaxed--but this is how I made up the first few.

First, I peeled off 12 feet of thread. Then I pinched one end about ten inches from the end. I used the back (dull) side of a scraper (you could use a knife) to untwist and spread the individual cords. I did that simply by scraping them against my work table. You can almost separate and fan out all eight cords.

Next, I chose one cord, at random. Then I cut the remaining seven cords two inches shorter than the one I had chosen. Next, I separated another cord from that bundle. At that point I had a bundle of six strands all the same length, one separate strand the same length as the bundle and one strand two inches longer than all the others. So...now I cut all the remaining cords in the bundle about three-quarter inch shorter than they were. separate out a strand and add it the other two. Cut the bundle three-quarter inch shorter again. separate out another strand, cut the bundle again--continue till all strands have been cut successively shorter.

Now use the "business end" of your scraper to "fluff" and spread the fibers of the shortest strand. Continue to scrape the end of this cord, starting about two inches from the end, working successively towards the tip, until the fibers break and some are pulled away. This will thin the end of the strand. As you scrape, the fibers will spread. With a little care you can even very quickly scrape and cut only half the fibers--thus making the taper even finer.

Do this for each strand. Try not to shorten the overall length of each strand. Do both ends of the 12 foot thread. When done, wax the whole thing and bristle.

This process is astonishingly fast (but admittedly not as fast as using pre-waxed tapers and steel bristles but maybe as fast or faster than making up linen inseaming threads) and makes a taper every bit as fine as you get pre-made.

I'm certain someone will come up with a way to do this even faster--this is just for starters.

But I like it--the unwaxed Teklon, I mean.. I may never use pre-made tapers or linen again.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[rosynay]

DW

Please forgive my ignorant question but
Why do you separate the strands of thread? Is it to enable one to apply
the wax on all of the strands or do you
use just one strand in sewing and if so
what part of the boot would you use this application if you are using just
one strand with which to sew.
Or do you recombine all strands after
they are waxed.

Also I see the threads are initally
3 yards long. When inserted in the needle/bristle are you sewing with a
double thread?

Finally, is the purpose of cutting the
thread tips to make the strands separate more easily? I follow what you are doing, I just don't understand
why you are doing it. So far I have not found any site that tells why on some of the needle/thread/ bristle
applications.

From a personal perspective when I am
hand sewing garments I always use
bees wax on the thread, it makes it
stronger, and there are different times
I will use a double thread (like sewing
buttons).

Rosemary
In Texas

[dw]

Rosemary,

Phwew! Lots of questions.

First, the thread in question (Teklon) is used to inseam boots and shoes (at least that's what I'm using it for) It consists of 8 smaller strands twisted together (although it is called "13 cord").

What we want is 4 yards tapered to a fine, fine point at each end.

When we make up linen inseaming threads--also know as "waxed ends"--we make it up of 7, 8, 9,...12 strands of, usually, #10 linen yarn. We taper the ends of the 12 foot bundle by staggering the ends of each strand relative to each other...and fraying the ends of the linen. This results in a very fine point (taper) on each end. Then we wax the whole bundle with a sticky, rosin based hand wax (sometime known as "coad") and twist it to make a stout cord.

Then we attach some form of bristle, steel--not my preferred choice--or hog's bristle or nylon bristle, in lieu of a needle. The bristle is flexible, will turn a corner and when twisted into, or "braided" into the taper of the waxed end, makes a perfect transition to the cord itself--with no lump or bump.

Using a stout, curved awl to make a hole in the "holdfast" of the insole, the bristles are fed into this hole from either direction and the waxed end is pulled through.

You can see that needles are too rigid and the lump formed by putting the thread through the eye of a needle and folding it back on itself, makes the job of pulling the thread through the hole in the insole that much more difficult.

What I describe in my post is essentially the process of preparing a dacron (Teklon) cord (which is already twisted) to receive the bristle, much as we prepare the linen. I am untwisting a short section (8 inches) at the end. I am staggering the ends of each individual strand/cord. I am scraping and tapering each individual cord. And then I am waxing the whole 12 foot bundle, re-twisting the tapered ends if necessary and adding a bristle.

A keyword search for "waxed ends", "bristles", and/or "coad" will probably result in a lot more information on this subject.

Hope that helps.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC

[rosynay]

Thanks DW!

Maybe one day I will get all this.
Your explanation helped.

Rosemary

[Duncan McHarg]

DW,
Needles set up with a proper tapered 'waxed end' will pull through a small awled hole easier than a braided nylon bristle in my experience.But, if the hole is large enough, the nylon will find it's way through a curved hole better than the steel needle. Mind you, if you have put exactly the same curve into the needles as on the awl, the race is pretty close.

Cheers Duncan
HCC Member

[dw]

Duncan,

I have to repectfully disagree with you.

I don't know what you are using for a needle...nor how you are doing inseaming, or even IF you are inseaming, for that matter. Nor even what weight of thread you are using. But I have used #3 and #4 guage steel bristles from Germany. These are **very* thin--almost as thin as a beading needle.

But *nothing* goes through the hole in the holdfast eaisier than a **properly** braided or twisted nylon or hogs bristle on a waxed end. Logically, it can't be otherwise. The bristles are *thinner* than a beading needle. There is virtually no transition from the diameter of the bristle to the thread. On the other hand, even if you are very careful (and very risky) and fold the taper of the thread over the eye of a needle in a very thin part of the taper, the needle solution still results in a "bump." Sure, it's a small bump but it's still a bump and running past the bump on the other needle is bound to create resistance. If nothing else you risk breakage of the taw.

You may have all these problems solved, I don't know. As I say I don't know what you are doing. But in this case I'd have to refer back to the long discussion on needles here recently and point out that needles of varying sizes and manufacture have been around for literally ages and yet the Trade (in its heyday two hundred years ago) ended up prefering bristles. Having used both needles and bristles....hog's bristles, nylon bristles, steel bristles...and having experimented with various methods of attachment over a number of years...I think I know why.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[mnewberry]

D.W.-

Having tried both, I agree with Duncan. I recognize that I am likely not setting up my bristles like you are, but my problem is not with the attachment of the bristle, nor with puling the bump at that point through the insole. Rather, I find that a good, thin steel bristle, bent to match my awl, finds the hole much easier. Having never had a problem (if it ain't broke...) I never even thought about doing it differently, until I had a hard time buying steel bristles.

So I tried nylon, and while I had no big problems getting it firmly attached, it just seemed like I spent forever fishing for the awl hole. Since the nylon bristle can't be bent to hold a shape, it was a struggle on every hole. It seems like the nylon was just too limp, and I went for a heavier test, but without much luck.

By then, I'd found more steel bristles, so I've dropped the issue. But maybe I'll send to you a sample of what I've been using, to get your opinion. Nylon would certainly be cheaper than steel, and if it is a better way, I'm always interested.

Thanks,

Matt

In writing this, it occurs to me that I might mail to you the leader used (I've tried two heavy monofilament nylons - 40#, 60#), to have you tell me if that is the problem.

[Jim Bultsma]

Matt,
I have been using the nylon needle for about a year now. I switched from using a jerk needle(very fast). What you are talking about was my major gripe with the nylon bristle. It really slowed me down. What I did to help the problem was to skive a point into the end of the bristle. That helped alot. Maybe that is something everybody is already doing, but in all the descriptions I have seen I did not notice this being done. Anyway, I am happy I switched to this method. I'm stubborn, but I try not to be stupid.
Jim

[dw]

Matt,

Jim brings up a pretty good point--I always round off the tips of my bristles by "swirling" them together on a sheet of 120 grit(?) sandpaper. And that **really** helps--more than you would think.

I stand in admiration of you and Duncan but I would have to say that using a steel bristle has got to be extremely easy, however you're doing it, because using a nylon bristle, properly prepared, is awesomely easy...in my experience.

I might add that a nylon bristle *can* be bent to a curved shape like your awl. Simply pull the tip of the bristle past your thumbnail and it will curl. In the end, it doesn't make any difference how you do it...as long as you end up with a tight shoemaker's stitch.

On the other hand...Jake, if you're reading this...have you switched back to steel since I taught you how to do it with nylon? Tell the truth now

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jake]

D.W.,

NO WAY! Nylon is the only way to go! I agree with D.W. on bending nylon. It can easily be done by following D.W.'s suggestion.

I also agree with Jim. You really need to skive or round off the end of your nylon bristles. It really makes a difference.

I might add that the correct nylon contributes to an enjoyable, successful experience of inseaming. I am using the SOFT/CHEAP brand of nylon. If you choose the "stiff" stuff, it is extremely hard to split and harder to run through your awl holes. Try "Ande" monofilament (green in color) in a 50 pound test.

Another lesson D.W. taught me.....pre-punch your insole before you last. This helped me so much!

Inseaming used to be extremely frustrating for me. I was also taught to use a jerk needle, but since following D.W.'s instructions, I actually enjoy inseaming.

Try it, you'll like it!

Jake