Thread

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
Post Reply
Message
Author
Lisa Sorrell

Re: Thread

#26 Post by Lisa Sorrell »

Kevin,
Thanks! I've e-mailed them asking for a color chart. I have a 110W125, and I use an 11 needle. So if it's working for you it should work fine for me. Have you actually built a boot stitched with this thread? I was working for a bootmaker one time, and we attempted to use some sort of fabric thread on a boot. It stitched OK, but when we went to turn the boot, it POPPED and broke all over. It was awful. Have you turned a boot that's been stitched with this thread?

Lisa
Eisele's Custom Boots

Re: Thread

#27 Post by Eisele's Custom Boots »

Lisa
I haven't had time to try it on a pair of boots yet, but they sent enough to top stitch a pair.
Are you thinking of assembling with it also?
The thread is rayonand I don't know the tensil strength.

Kevin
sorrell

Re: Thread

#28 Post by sorrell »

Kevin,
Yes, I'd like to top-stitch with it if it's strong enough. I've used rayon thread for home sewing projects, and I love it. It has a sheen to it that's beautiful. To me it's prettier than silk thread. The rayon thread that I've bought is for top stitching/decorative stitching. I've used it in my home sewing machine for monogramming and embroidery. It looks nice, but it's VERY small diameter and it's not as strong as polyester or nylon. Hopefully this thread will be thicker and stronger.

Lisa
Eisele's Custom Boots

Re: Thread

#29 Post by Eisele's Custom Boots »

Lisa
I tried to measure the thread against the 46 that I have and found it quite compareable in size. If not, it will match the 33 size.
Kevin
Matt Newberry

Re: Thread

#30 Post by Matt Newberry »

Kevin and Lisa-

Did the embroidery thread work out for either of you? Still curious about whether it is viable.

Matt
sorrell

Re: Thread

#31 Post by sorrell »

Matt,
I'm sorry, I haven't tried it yet. It was a little heavier than I had in mind, and I just haven't gotten around to stitching with it.

Lisa
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#32 Post by dw »

I got a hot tip for those looking to increase their options for thread. I got a flyer from Campbell Bosworth Machinery, 1.800.327.9420, the other day. they were offering discontinued lots of nylon 33 thread for $2.00 a 1/4lb. spool. That's a pretty good deal. The 33 is a bit small but great for doing delicate inlay work on kid or kangaroo. They have quite a bit at that price and some interesting colors:red, maroon, fuschia, magenta, pink, black, white, cream. eggshell, beige, avocado, kelly green!! navy, tan, charcoal.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
Sir Simon Eyre

Re: Thread

#33 Post by Sir Simon Eyre »

I recently ordered a spool of flax thread (single, No.10 - 4oz. unbleached) from Arensberg and was surprised with the quality. It's Barbour's (of Alabama) and is the strongest single flax thread I've yet found.

Rusty
User avatar
norwegian
1
1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jan P.
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Thread

#34 Post by norwegian »

To all, who does goodyear welting by hand?
Last autumn I met June Swann during a seminar about historic scandinavian shoes. I was demonstrating the making of a ten cords thread for welting. At the time I was using Barbour linen single shoe thread from northern Ireland. She was a bit surprised and recommended me an american manufacturer who knew how to make good quality linen. Since, she did not remember the company name that afternoon, am I sure there is someone reading this who knows and might be able to give me a company name and addresse. Every suggestion will be highly appreciated!

Until next time
Jan P. Myhre
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#35 Post by dw »

Jan,

Welcome to The Crispin Colloquy! Norwegian, eh? [For members reading this post, click on Jan's name (in green) in the header of his post to see a fine pair of shoes]

Many of us here inseam by hand...if that is what you mean by doing "goodyear welting by hand." But as you imply in your post, good linen yarn is hard to come by. I think that the consensus here, the last time we talked about it, was that most modern linen is bleached and so loses much of the near legendary strength that is historically associated with linen and hemp.

There are some manufacturers here in the states but except for demonstration purposes, I, personally, no longer use linen myself. Many of us are inseaming with dacron tapers that were originally made for sewing moccasin plugs by hand. With some judicious preparation, the dacron rapers can be used exactly as you would use linen. We wax it with a mix of rosin and beeswax, and tip it with either boars bristles or nylon bristles. The holdfast is pierced by a curved sewing awl and the bristles are fed in from either side of the holdfast/welt. You know the drill, I am sure.

Ludlow Threads is one manufacturer of this dacron thread here in the US. They are now offering the thread in rolls rather than in tapers and this can be the best solution for those of us trained with linen as we can make and control the taw and may not have to deal with the paraffin coating that the tapers come coated with. I've not seen the roll but that is what I was told by a friend who just ordered from them.

The great advantage of the dacron (aside from the cost) is that it is as strong or stronger than the linen and will not rot.


Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
Janne Melkersson

Re: Thread

#36 Post by Janne Melkersson »

Hej Jan Petter och välkommen till HCC's forum.

Last autumn did I visit a bootmakers roundup in Brownwood Texas. Among other things I never had seen before I saw the dacron tapers DW mentioned.

I do use them and they work quite well. The only problem is that those I have are to short for heel to heel work. If you are interested I could send you a sample. If so send me a private mail.

Ha det!
User avatar
norwegian
1
1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jan P.
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Thread

#37 Post by norwegian »

Hei Janne, hyggelig å møtes på nettet, ikke sant?
To Tight Stitches, Janne and all the others.
I am impressed about your knowledge and good intentions, thank you!

I am tought in a british tradition of shoemaking. An english maker would probably not agree on using dacron in a traditional shoe. Everything else is organic, why use synthetic thread? How strong do you want the shoe to become? Many makers want the shoe to move gracefully and smooth in harmony with the owner. Is it right to accept and to open up for more synthetic materials in traditional shoemaking? Even if the thread is working like linen, do you not belive in beeing faithful to an old tradition, or is it just simply different schools?
Does the best linen excist today?

Yours
JPM
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#38 Post by dw »

Jan,

Well, you are in good company here. Many of us have also been taught in traditional methods and have deep reverence for those techniques. Organic materials are the best...for the most part...best for the foot, best for durability, best for the esthetics of the shoe. Speaking only for myself, I, personally, will not willingly use *any* synthetic unless I can be convinced that the synthetic produces a better product.

"How strong do you want the shoe to become?" you ask. The better question is...how weak a shoe or how weak an inseam are you willing to accept in order to be "pure?"

The inseam is the most important seam in a shoe...or, at least one of the most important. It is the backbone of the shoe/boot. How strong a backbone would you like for your own body? How weak a backbone before you fall down? If the quality of linen is not up to the same quality as the rest of the materials in the shoe, doesn't the *real* question become: "have you degraded the quality of your work by using it?"

What kind of thread are you using for your top stitching? Cotton? Linen? Or is it nylon? What are you using for an adhesive? Paste? Hirschkleber?

Dacron is every bit as flexible as linen, twice as strong as contemporary linen yarn and completely rot resistant. Show me an unbleached linen or hemp yarn with an 18"-24" staple, and I'll gladly switch back. What I won't do is degrade my product or shorten the useful life of my boots by using inferior materials simply because that's what the old guys did.

No one has more reverence for the standards and knowledge that past masters have handed down to us than this group and I am a member of the HCC for that very reason. But I think you have to measure everything against one unfailing, immutable criterion--the longevity of the boot. There are other factors that enter into it, but whenever we knowingly build in weakness or obsolescence, we have done our customers and our Trade a disservice, in my opinion.

By the way, don't take any of this personally, I love these kinds of questions and these kinds of issues. They are the heart and soul of what makes this all so fascinating. And, in my opinion, they are of great enough importance that each of us must, at some time, come to grips with them before we can legitimately call ourselves shoemakers. Our answers...and how we resolve these issues...may not always be the same but we can't ignore them.

PS...my sign off is "Tight Stitches," my name is DW.

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
norwegian
1
1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jan P.
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Thread

#39 Post by norwegian »

To DW,
Thank you for a fullfilling answer.
This discussion is interesting. I want to go back when I entered the forum. I have not been anything but happy with the linen thread I am using for making the inseam. What kind of references Mrs June Swann has, I do not know because I have not been able to ask her. The people who trained me in England are still using linen based on the experience that the shoes stays healthy for at least 25 years. I think more often that moist and sweat is doing a much better job on ruining the shoe from the inside than a rotting inseam. What do you think?
My point is accordingly; Do you need an inseam to survive both yourself and your grandchildren,when there is other elements killing the boot a long time before that? People has a tendensy to abuse their shoes, do they not. Same pair everyday until...
I think my answer will be; Why not, if it gives your pride the same lift as working with organic materials! Please also remember that calfs and cows are suffering these days and the result is weaker qualities, thinner soles and so on...
Who can make the same quality of Box calf. No one hardly knows what it is, or more correctly was. Bakers can not make the same thickness on soles anymore. What is, like it used to be and how far back shall we go to compare with our needs today? But that is another side of the same story.
I am trained to make the thread according to the persons weight and depending on what kind of shoe it is, for what purpose to wear and so on.
Is that something you may do with Dacron? I do agree with your opinion about knowingly build in weakness. Who would, if you have any pride at all?
I use different kinds of paste depending on what kind of shoe it is, male, female, heelstiffener or toepuff. I have just like Janne, very god experience with HK at toepuffs, but even there it might stick to hard. Especially when the toe is clean and there is nothing out front to disturb your eye. Again, I use paste depended on the weight and how the person is walking gives me an idea how solid I need the shoe to be. Basically, I have three types for the heelstiffeners, one polyurethan and two organic. What do you mean by "top stitching"? Uppers, or sole on welt? What do you mean by 18"-24" staple?

Until next time
Yours
JPM
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#40 Post by dw »

Jan,

Well, part of the problem with linen is that it *is* organic. You rightly make a point about moisture, sweat and salt destroying the shoe. The fact is that the environment inside a shoe is a bacterial jungle. Linen thread *can* be waxed really thoroughly....*but*!! if it is not, it is food for that bacteria. That's part of the reason that linen will rot.

Back a number of years, maybe 15, when I was still using linen, I used to make up a ten cord thread for men's boots. I would then break the ten cords in to two or three strands and wax those strands with a hand wax made of pine rosin, pine pitch and beeswax. I made the wax myself. Then I twisted all ten cords together and rewaxed and then burnished the wax into the whole. I had, at that time, several customers who were cowboys and farriers (professional horseshoers). These guys worked hard and sweated profusely. One in particular, would rot out linen seams in less than six months. The linen would simply disintegrate in the inseam. My own personal boots from that time are still around here somewhere.

The answer to your question is that if there is no working difference between dacron and linen, and there is no esthetic difference, and there is no foot health problems associated with dacron, then yes, I want the inseam and the inseaming thread to last forever, if possible. Why not?

"Top stitching" is the thread you use for closing--around the quarters, etc.. Do you use cotton or linen? Or is it nylon? And if it is nylon, how is that different from using dacron in the inseam?

"Staple" is the length of the individual fibers of flax used to make the linen yarn. Old, traditional methods of preparing the flax could yield fibers as long as four feet, or longer, if my memory serves. So even a staple of 18" doesn't quite approach the quality of days gone by. Most linen I am familiar with (and I have a small cache of Campbells Best Irish Linen, from when I used linen all the time) has a staple less than 12 "...if that--more likely 4"-6".

Tight Stitches...
DWFII--Member HCC
User avatar
norwegian
1
1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jan P.
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Thread

#41 Post by norwegian »

To DW,
Very respectable story. I understand you are a man of great experience.
I appreciate your arguments and taste for beeing principled in this issue.
I have been arguing previously quite strongly for keeping the tradition alive and I belive I do every day. It is therefore, extra hard to admit that I use polyester for my uppers. (Dang it, I was hoping to get away with the impression of beeing a shoemaking purist). Like you, I am also willing to switch back to organic thread for my uppers if I had found an equaly nice thread to work with. I think the main reason for my choice is due to the machine and the way the stiches sets in the leather. This is for finer uppers. The result when using thin cotton/linen is not comparable. For heavier work I use a Singer 45K with linen thread. It also sets very nice in the leather, but it is a different thing. Now after a few rounds, I belive we respect each others angel in this matter. Thanks!

Until next time
JPM
crispinian

Re: Thread

#42 Post by crispinian »

Jan,

The best American-made flax thread I've found is the Barbour's I previously mentioned, and this may be what June was referring to. This Barbour is in Anniston, Alabama and you can buy their thread through Arensberg of Seattle. I'm using their No.10 - 4oz. unbleached 'hand shoe thread' which is considerably stronger than the Irish stuff of recent years. I hand-ply my threads for stitching outsoles and other heavy work such as bottles and buckets. I do, however, use Ludlow's polyester tapers for inseaming and I spend far less time mending as a result.

Rusty Moore
Plymouth, Massachusetts
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: Thread

#43 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Rusty,

Is that Barbours #10 you mention the medium-dark gray colored stuff put up in the little clear plastic jars, that feeds out a hole in the white plastic lid? We've been using it too at CW, and while it's hard spun and very strong, my "elves" hate it and have asked that I buy them something else. Just checking.
marc
5
5
Posts: 272
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:00 am
Full Name: Marc Carlson
Location: Tulsa, Ok, USA
Been Liked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Thread

#44 Post by marc »

my "elves" hate it and have asked that I buy them something else


Have you considered supplying them with that "fake sinew" stuff from Tandy (and other places)? Enough of that, and they might stop complaining about the linen...

Marc
User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Thread

#45 Post by jake »

Al,

What you described is what I was using before my mentor (and other Masters) convinced me to change to dacron tapers.

I would have to say I never had a problem with the Barbour's linen, but I'm just a young pup.

Jake
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: Thread

#46 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Fake sinew indeed. Might as well go back to using Barge cement, and harness blunts on stitcher linen smeared with beeswax and call that "historical shoemaking", like the good ol' days Image
D.A. Saguto--HCC

Re: Thread

#47 Post by D.A. Saguto--HCC »

Jake,

In my time I've seen it go from 4 or 5 varieties of linen and "best common hemp" hand thread, white and unbleached, by Barbours, Campbells, Finlaysons & Bousfield Co., and other old British manufactures, available in No. 10, No. 15, and something even thinner called "Army Flax", York Street brand, down to zip. Then there came this hard, fuzzy, gray thread from central or eastern Europe around 1990--hard spun and strong, so it made hairy threads that looked more like ships' ropes. The Goetz thread I've seen is hairy like this too.

When I was an apprentice in the '70s, there were different threads used to make up different sorts of waxed ends, for different classes of work, etc. Some for inseaming, others strictly for welt-stitching and fancy work, even yellow and red. Today, well, there just isn't much left except machine twist and stitcher threads [pre-spun 4,5,7,8 cord etc.]. The dark gray Barbours #10 hand thread in the little plastic jars is about the strongest I've tried that's still available. Why exactly my "elves" object to it is unknown, except it's hard-finished and tightly spun--not fluffy and soft like the last-gasp #10 hand thread being offered by the amalgamated Barbour-Cambpell Co. in the late 1980s we started out with.

I've reluctantly tried the polyester tapers for inseaming only, and they seem to work alright, but once you've become accustomed to one "feel", anything else seems "odd" or "wrong". On the other hand I've never had an inseam rot out prematurely with the polyester. Another quagmire for us in museums is, that we must close our uppers all by hand too, so the thread needs to be fine enough to make up into a good, smooth, strong closing-thread too. Webs Co., a craft weavers' supply house in New England supplies some hard, wet-spun, unbleached gray, linen threads [they look like thinner versions of the current Barbours in the jar], but there's no strength to them because the staple is too short, as DW explained above.
User avatar
norwegian
1
1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jan P.
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Thread

#48 Post by norwegian »

To all,
Does anyone have any experience with Swiss linen? This autumn I bought two dozen of green linen nr 10 from the wife of an old shoemaker who died. He had kept it on one of his coolest shelfs for storage. He did not make to much himself. According to the look of the wrapping paper I will suggest it is from the fifties. I have used it for some time together with the white "Singel shoe thread (nr.20)". It is shiny like silk, quite alot stronger than the white one and it is very easy to prepare with wax. I have not compared the lenght of the fibers yet, but I will tomorrow. Any comments will be appreciated!

Until next time
JPM
User avatar
norwegian
1
1
Posts: 22
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jan P.
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Thread

#49 Post by norwegian »

To Rusty,
I almost forgot to thank you for your good advice.
I will look into it! Thanks!

JPM
crispinian

Re: Thread

#50 Post by crispinian »

Yes, Al, that's the stuff. By the way, you got any spare elves down there? Ever since my wife made those little suits of clothes for ours, we haven't seen hide nor hair of 'em.

Rusty
Post Reply