Lasts

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
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jake
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Re: Lasts

#76 Post by jake » Fri Oct 04, 2002 7:35 am

To All,

For those of you who haven't seen leather buildups. This is one I'm working on at the moment. I'm fixin to lightly sand the excess glue and rough spots before my final coat of press cement:
2210.jpg
2210.jpg (87.38 KiB) Viewed 975 times

tmattimore

Re: Lasts

#77 Post by tmattimore » Fri Oct 04, 2002 10:46 am

Skivings from half soles and heel counters are my source of build up material I keep a box under the fortuna to save them. I consider the last a tool, to be modified and adapted as needed, but certainly not one to be dedicated to a specific client in perpituity. I do however keep the build ups in envolopes for future use along with the foot tracings and measure. A fraction off has not seemed to be a problem.
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Re: Lasts

#78 Post by jake » Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:40 pm

To All,

Thought I would pass along some information given to me by our good friend Bill Tippit, Sr. Thanks once again Bill!

Here's a list of last companies which may be of some help to us:


Felix Formas - Novo Hamburgo, Brazil
Contact: Gaspar Schaefer - Owner
Phone: 011-55-51-598-4777
Fax: 011-55-51-598-4692
email: gaspar@felixformas.com.br
I've worked with Gaspar for about 10 years. He is one of the most technologically advanced last makers in the world and is equipped with my company's 3D and 2D CAD products as well as several different CNC lathe systems, some of which he was instrumental in developing.

Horma S.A. de C.V. - Leon, Mexico
Contact: Adolfo Moreno - General Director
Phone: 011-52-47-112163
Fax: 011-52-47-112269
email: adolfomg@leon.podernet.com.mx
Horma S.A. is the company I partnered with in Mexico when I owned The Last Word. Their quality is outstanding and they have my company's 2D CAD system as well as the Newlast (Italian) CNC lathe system.

El Arbol - Leon, Mexico
Contact: Luis Rodriquez - President
Phone: 011-52-477-115175
Fax: 011-52-477-115250
email: luis_rod@infosel.net.mx (remember to put the underscore _ between luis and rod.....luis_rod)
El Arbol has been selling lasts in the US for about 20-25 years. They also have the Newlast CNC lathe system.

Jim Yeiser

Re: Lasts

#79 Post by Jim Yeiser » Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:59 am

I've accumulated a cellar full of lasts, wood and plastic, great variety.
Need to clear them out.
Is there interest?
Jim Yeiser
410-522-1970

Jim Yeiser

Re: Lasts

#80 Post by Jim Yeiser » Thu Apr 03, 2003 6:58 pm

Have had enough response to know there is interest in my accumulated stock of lasts.
Now, I have to go to the cellar and sort and inventory. It'll take me a couple of weeks. Then I can let you know what I have.

Jim Yeiser

mebaltezore

Re: Lasts

#81 Post by mebaltezore » Tue Apr 08, 2003 8:00 pm

looking for a pair of ladies flats shoe lasts in size 8 reg. width.

Thanks,
Mike

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Re: Lasts

#82 Post by paul » Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:13 am

Mike,
Try Barta Hide Co. Petaluma California, 707/762-2965. His ad in Shop Talk Mag. says he has about 2500 pair of shoe lasts, plastic $6.50-$8.50 or $6000 for all.
I got a run a ladies sizes a couple of weeks ago. B widths seems to be all he has. Give a call.
PK

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Re: Lasts

#83 Post by paul » Wed Apr 09, 2003 8:34 am

All,
While I'm in this section, I have a question about combination lasts. When does one know when to use one? What adjustments would be necessary, or would one just work off the measurements? Would it have to be ordered from one of our last sources. Mostly I'd like to learn what I could about combination lasts.
TIA, PK

pablo

Re: Lasts

#84 Post by pablo » Wed Apr 09, 2003 12:03 pm

Paul,
In the words of a retired model maker of lasts..." a last , whether combination last or by any other description, is just a last...".
An 8D last is what ever the maker model makes and names 8D. Avoid the " hang-up" name of combination last. The idea of a standard 8D, for instance, was loosly adhered to because each last company( insiders call them a house) had their own dimensions for an 8D. When orders for an 8D were received those in-house dimensions were used. To mix an 8D back-part with a 10C fore-part will conjur images of a combination last in the usual sense, but viewed from the perspective of the model maker making the original new last, its just another model in a new style with aspects taken from other lasts.

btippit

Re: Lasts

#85 Post by btippit » Wed Apr 09, 2003 9:14 pm

Many of you have heard my sermon on combination lasts but for those who haven't, open your Bibles to Bill 3:25....

The traditional "combination" last is supposed to have a narrow heel and a regular forepart, like an 8B heel on an 8D forepart for instance. Many boot/shoe makers say they need this because their customer has a "narrow heel". Actually it's not "many" who say this, it's almost all of them, almost all of the time. My big question here is, if the majority of the population has a "narrow" heel, wouldn't that make it a "REGULAR" heel? It can't be narrow if it falls into the norm. Besides, in 28 years of last making, no one ever told me what the "standard" measurement for an 8D heel was. I know the "standard" measurement for the ball, waist, instep, length, toe thickness, etc. but I couldn't tell you the "standard" heel width if my life depended on it. I know how they grade but I don't know where we're supposed to start.

My theory is that over the years, model makers just got sloppy. All new styles are developed from a previous style. Usually, the model maker takes a last that is made for a PARTICULAR type of shoe (EXTREMELY important) and changes the toe or heel height or some other aspect for style reasons while maintaining the good fit of the area from the ball to the heel. However, when the new model is turned to begin this work, the lathe can distort the shape and one of the common distortions, especially in older machines is to "blow the backpart up" or make it wider and alter the shape a little.

I believe that over the years, model makers, especially the younger ones making the size run models (not the masters making the original) didn't use their templates and more importantly their eyes to watch for this. Take a look at an old Krentler Brothers last and then look at a new last made for the same type of footwear and you'll see what I mean. Feet haven't gotten narrower in the heel in the last 50 years, lasts have gotten wider.

So, there's truth in what Pablo says. The measurement is in the eye of the beholder but we do have some standards to go by. They just aren't always followed.

End of sermon. Drive safely and we'll see you next week.

Bill

pablo

Re: Lasts

#86 Post by pablo » Wed Apr 09, 2003 10:41 pm

Hello Bill,
Pinning down the dates for heel curve templates,horse collars,scientific bottom lay-outs
and refinements like toe thicknesses would go far toward understanding how standards did begin.Those
seem to have occured after the realization of need
to fit the masses ,perhaps we can agree upon that,and several years after much fudging and fiddling with every curve and face on the last until the ridiculous had been exhausted ( approx 1900).That appears to be the time serious model makers commence competition to solve the the basic issues
of where to begin a last, ie ,the standard , from which to explode the run.
The lathe manufacturers at the century turn are multiple and they are searching( from what my research indicates)
for magic bullets to speed manufacturing and control the grading. United gets into the prowl in
this period and gobbles-up the competition but to its credit continues the search like a trooper.
Krentler lasts of the 20's - 30's (STANDARDS by any measure) are actually USMC lasts.
Now , if you look at a 315S( Krentler)last,I'd
be shocked if a narrower back part would be desired on an 8D. Its straight-sided without convex-ing for its back part and as one interview put it to me the 8261& 8670 were ordered originally precisely because width at the ball was desired over existing lasts in the 40's not because heels sizes were incorrect. Later adjustments( remember the jacking -around of the pre- 1900's?) altered heels in the 1950's and experimenting by not model makers but goofy boot shop owners who wanted to make their "mark" by telling the model makers " how-to make the last.
Beware of what you ask for because you just might get IT! In some cases the owners ordered lasts to their own specs and wound-up with #*!?.
On one occasion, a last was returned three times to remove as little as 1/64 th in. at variouys spots! Thats why I would never blame a model maker
for a custom ordered last.

btippit

Re: Lasts

#87 Post by btippit » Thu Apr 10, 2003 6:48 am

Pablo,

Sounds like we're cut from the same cloth. As for the last that was returned thrice to have 1/64" taken off, I think that all comes down to ego or job security for the guy in product development (production shoe company), custom boot/shoe maker, or boss at the last factory.

Once when I worked for brand X&Y as head of their model room, we reported to the plant manager, a self-proclaimed expert in model making. He was throwing fits one day because he thought some toe templates didn't fit properly. He marked on the models (a run of military models for the Govt) with a pencil where he wanted the material removed and stormed out of the room and downstairs. I told my guys to erase the pencil marks and just "kiss" the area with a piece of 200 grit sandpaper so he wouldn't see the eraser smudges. We sat down and played cards for about half an hour (of course we had a lookout) and then called him and said they were done. Naturally, they were deemed perfect, even though nothing at all had changed. Ego.

Bill

pablo

Re: Lasts

#88 Post by pablo » Thu Apr 10, 2003 8:22 am

Bill,
Can't pass up this chance to fix an image in your mind with this classic for the ages. An east coast
last company owner had the habit of checking things regularly in the shop and whenever a major foul-up occured he'd yank off his straw hat and
slam his fist through the top then storm back in his office, put on a reserve . Expensive habit but effective management.

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Re: Lasts

#89 Post by paul » Fri Apr 11, 2003 9:11 am

Thank you Bill and Pablo for your insights.

I can see that this is an area in which I am woefully lacking in knowledge, however it doesn't deter me. And while I appreciate the lesson in the origins of lasts and the correction that a combination last is just a last by another name, I really want to hear from long time boot and shoe makers.

When do I know that I have a customer with an 8D heel and a 10D forepart? And how is that taken into account in fitting them up for a pair of boots or shoes? After I have applied that mark to the observation, then what do I do with it? I recall that DW wrote in one of his tutorials, that we make such an observation often in the people that come to us for custom footwear. I want to be prepared to know when that's happening and what to do when it does.

PK

pablo

Re: Lasts

#90 Post by pablo » Fri Apr 11, 2003 10:32 am

Paul,
Your concern about selecting and fitting the last
and in particular the heel of the last can only be answered with experience which begets confidence.
Assuming you know how to select the correct last from your inventory - the last which is at or just below the cardinal measurements ( ball, waist, etc), viewing from directly above the last's back , you should observe that the last falls inside the outline of the foot draft( drawn from the customers foot). A boney ankle or chubby ankle demand less or more space( build-up) on the last. It is at this point that you again consider whether you have selected the proper last style - some have narrower back-parts ( 315S is narrower that 593 for instance - both Krentler).
Then, the throat measure( and the instep) "confirms" the sufficient squeeze to hold the heel in place and sets the correct dimension on the last that agrees with the ankle dimension you are concerned about.

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Re: Lasts

#91 Post by dw » Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:09 pm

Paul,

If you use a pedograph, when you set the last on the imprint, the featherline of the heelseat of the last should be no wider than the "footprint." Generally speaking, when you see this narrow heelprint, you'll also see that the short heel of the foot is smaller (relative to the short heel of the last) as well. And the high instep from the foot may also be small for the overall size of the last...ie. the forepart of the last. In other words if you have an "A" heel and a "D" joint (ball) on the foot, you'll usually see the first signs of it (working towards the back of the last) in the high instep, then the short heel, then the width of the heel print.

As an aside, some folks have very firm feet and may not print very wide but still have a relatively heavy short heel. In such cases, we first look at the high instep girth. Some of the necessary substance may be in the instep. Then we look at the short and long heel of the foot and compare them to the short and long heel of the last. They *must* match. Taken together these factors allow us to take a narrow last (to accommodate a narrow heel, or even a narrow heel print) and build it up...in the instep or even around the sides of the heel while preserving the narrow heel seat of the last. BTW, the latter kind of build up is mentioned in Golding...and has an honourable lineage. The same proceedure works with any foot and any last.

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Lisa Sorrell

Re: Lasts

#92 Post by Lisa Sorrell » Fri Apr 11, 2003 12:48 pm

While we're asking questions about fitting lasts, I've got one. I'm fitting a last for a customer right now. She has a long, narrow, bony foot with large bunions on each foot. I'm having to add to the last to accomodate the bunions. I've put her in a 9 1/2AA, and it's perfect everywhere except for the bunions I'm adding and one other thing. With the way I measure and fit a last, I usually make the waist area around 1/4" smaller than the foot measurement. This last measures her waist measurement exactly. I'm afraid to take any out of the waist because it's already a full 1" smaller than the ball and I'm afraid I won't be able to get the last out. Then there's the problem of her getting her foot in... Does anyone have a rule of thumb that they use--"The waist can never be more than X" smaller than the ball measurement."

Lisa

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Re: Lasts

#93 Post by dw » Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:37 pm

Lisa,

Measuring the foot and modifying lasts the way I do it, the waist is generally a rough 3/8th inch smaller than the low instep and the same amount smaller than a non-bunionized ball girth. But I have always gone by one rule of thumb: measure the foot correctly and you will never need to subtract anything from the measurements. So it is hard for me to comment helpfully.

I don't honestly think that there is any such rule of thumb that says "The waist can never be more than X" smaller than the ball measurement." You have to fit what is there, and the foot can be nearly any size...or combination of measurements and shape.

Beyond that, I have built up for bunions and while the last was harder to get out of the boot, I've never torn a vamp or even substantially...or irreversibly...stretched the waist while pulling the last. I have, one one or two occasions (over several decades), had a foot that was so small in the short heel and throat, but so wide in the forepart, that the vamp quarter curve tore slightly when I pulled the last. This an extreme variation of the 8A heel/8D forepart syndrome.

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Re: Lasts

#94 Post by dw » Fri Apr 11, 2003 5:40 pm

Lisa,

PS...did you ever try that water based neoprene cement from Upaco? Did you like it? I'm using it for nearly everything now, except gluing buildups on lasts.

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Lisa Sorrell

Re: Lasts

#95 Post by Lisa Sorrell » Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:25 am

D.W.,
Well, my opinion has always been that if you measure the same way every time and you know what to do with those measurements to achieve a fit, it really doesn't matter what that method is. Image
I've had the vamp quarter curve tearing problem a couple of times. I guess I'll just do my best on this one and see what happens...

No, I haven't ordered it and tried it yet. I've been wanting to ask what is probably a dumb question first. Since it's water-based, and you say that you keep your brush in water since water is basically a solvent for it, what happens when the customer sweats or walks through a puddle? Do you think it's going to hold long-term?

And when you say you're using it for everything, are you using it to cement tops together as well?

Lisa

Tex Robin

Re: Lasts

#96 Post by Tex Robin » Sat Apr 12, 2003 10:18 am

Lisa,

If your method of measuring works for you keep it. I think I measure and fit my lasts with the same method you use and it works for me. My misfits have been at zero for almost a decade now. If it works don't change it...

Lisa & DW,

I am using the water based cement in a limited way now and it does have its drawbacks. I leave my brush in the jar though. The problem is that with it the drying process is not the same on all materials. If you cement a piece of leather and a piece of rubber, you have a problem...You must wipe the rubber off almost clean to have the same drying time. And you can't use it to cement in your steel shanks. It never dries on steel....

It will never take the place of regular all-purpose in my opinion. But it's shortcomings can be worked around, I think...The jury is still out.

DW,

Is there a hazmat charge on the Upaco cement? .....TR

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Re: Lasts

#97 Post by dw » Sat Apr 12, 2003 12:09 pm

Lisa and Tex,

Actually, I've been using it for nearly everything during bottoming...including gluing on rubber heels...and some top work, too. For instance, if I am doing oily leather, almost nothing works much less works as well. I wouldn't, however, use it if I had to depend on it alone--like with glue on soles.

And I am keeping my brush in the pot, as well. I kept it in water only when I first started simply because I wasn't used to it and didn't have a dedicated pot.

And I don't know about the hazmat charge but I can't see why there would be one. There's no solvent in the glue. I'm going to order my first five gallon shipment this next week. I might be willing to sell a gallon or two (cost plus shipping) to anyone who wants to start using it but doesn't want to start off with five gallons.

With regard to measuring, I wasn't trying to suggest that you should change your methods, just pointing out that we come from different schools of thought; and as a consequence, what is a rule of thumb for either of us isn't necessarily gonna be a rule of thumb for the other.

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Tex Robin

Re: Lasts

#98 Post by Tex Robin » Sat Apr 12, 2003 1:50 pm

DW,

Yeah, I am most certainly interrested in a gal of the Upaco..Just let me know how much. I knotere will be a UPS chg..... Thanks......TR

texrobinboots

Re: Lasts

#99 Post by texrobinboots » Sat Apr 12, 2003 9:31 pm

DW & Lisa,

On the subject of measuring and fitting lasts and the differences in methods.

I have always used the method that my Father taught me where the measurements are taken on the floor with relaxed stocking foot and only the weight of the leg on it. I then make the last with a smaller measurement. However, I have looked at the other method where you measure the foot with the legs crossed and then make the last with the same measurements. I checked my own last to see how the measurements compared and found that they were exactly the same as my foot measurements with my leg crossed....My conclusion : Either method is usable and probably essentially the same in practical use. I will probably use the latter method for my mail orders because it is easier for the customer to take his own measurements.....But I will use the method that I have had the best success with and that is the first method. I have not had a misfit with this method for the last 10 or so years. but I am not sure exactly why the success. It is probably mostly because of the experience I have and not the method.....TR

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Re: Lasts

#100 Post by dw » Sun Apr 13, 2003 5:25 am

Tex,

Thanks, I'll let you know what the damages are when it comes in.

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