Lasts

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
Message
Author
Tex Robin

Re: Lasts

#26 Post by Tex Robin » Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:16 am

The book is available from Dave McKinney or from Panhandle Leather co. I use the book with my students and it is a good book for the basics. It is kinda vague on the measuring and dimensions for last fitting, but it lays out the making of the cowboy boot pretty well...TR

rileycraig
2
2
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Riley G.

Re: Lasts

#27 Post by rileycraig » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:10 am

All,

I am in need of a little assistance. Since we now have to know the numbers of the last when we order from JV, I need the following numbers for last with 1 5/8" heel: Pointed toe, Narrow Round Toe, and Medium Square toe. Any help would be greatly appreciated.....Thanks!

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#28 Post by dw » Mon Sep 30, 2002 5:57 am

Riley,

Just a thought...I make wide round, narrow round, medium round, narrow chisel, medium chisel, wide chisel, narrow square, medium square, wide square, and Victorian coffin toed boots...all on a medium round toed last. That's all I use...all I've ever used. Sure saves on having to stock 10 different lasts for every size and heel height.

A lastmaker once told me (and I think there's a limit to it...) that a good boot or shoemaker ought to be able to convert any size last to any other size last, and toe style into any other toe style. I think maybe two sizes down, two sizes narrower, three to four sizes longer and about the same wider...maybe a bit more.

What I don't think should be done, without a lot of really in-depth understanding of lasts, is to raise and lower the heel height willy-nilly. By that I mean trying to put a inch and seven-eights heel on an inch and five-eighths inch last. Even as little as an eighth of an inch can throw the weight of the body down onto the metatarsal heads and cause foot problems that won't show up immediately but once they do, will be nearly permanent.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

rileycraig
2
2
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Riley G.

Re: Lasts

#29 Post by rileycraig » Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:29 am

DW,

I've made 10's out of 8's and EE's from D's, etc., but I just don't think I can take a size 10, for instance, with a medium round toe, and make it into a size 10 with a narrow or pointed toe. I do appreciate your input though! Thanks!

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Lasts

#30 Post by jake » Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:40 am

Riley,

I was gonna keep quiet, but I just have to make a few comments.

D.W. is telling you right! Unless you have lots of money for lasts, a medium round toe last will suffice for just about every type of toe style.

You said:
but I just don't think I can take a size 10, for instance, with a medium round toe, and make it into a size 10 with a narrow or pointed toe


What ya do is step back a size or two, depending on the shape of the person's toes, and make the toe style desired out of leather build-ups, nails, and press cement.

One thing that truly helped me on toe styles, and last design for that matter, is being at Redmond right beside D.W. It's amazing what he can do with a medium round toe. The way I look at it, if He can do it, why can't we? You can do it Riley! It may take you a while to develop this skill, but you will end up a better bootmaker.

P.S. My lasts don't look like potatoes now! Right D.W.? Image

rileycraig
2
2
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Riley G.

Re: Lasts

#31 Post by rileycraig » Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:51 am

Jake,

I do practice building up last, (potatoes, yes) and I can usually have it done in the same amount of time it takes to get an order from JV. However, I've never even seen a last with the coffin toe, for instance, and can see myself having a major problem with something like that.

Thanks,

Riley

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#32 Post by dw » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:03 am

Riley,
...but I just don't think I can take a size 10, for instance, with a medium round toe, and make it into a size 10 with a narrow or pointed toe.


Unless I'm missing something, that's one of the easiest mods of all.

As the toe shape narrows, the last *must* get longer. If it doesn't, you'll pinch the customer's toes every time. In fact, that's basis for the old myth about cowboy boots pinching the toes. Someone bought a boot that had a pointed toe, but because he wasn't used to that much sticking out from under his pant cuff, he bought them short.

To make a size 10 pointed toe from a size 10 medium toe, take a size 10 medium round toe and build it up to lengthen it. Then grind off the excess to shape the narrower toe. Drive a little blue top lift nail (or two) into the end of the build-up (as you're building it up) to keep it from being dislocated during lasting and when the shape is complete seal and harden with press cement. Nothing could be simpler.

Jake, your lasts look *good*...but it's all in the eye. I've always said that the most important tool that a bootmaker has is his brain and the next most important is his eye. Throwing money at a problem rather than engaging either is a short cut to a gas station job!

Image

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Lasts

#33 Post by jake » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:03 am

Riley,

Yeap, I hear ya, and please forgive me for buttin' in.

In the past, I have ordered a last to study a particular toe style. But once you get that style in your mind, you should be able to make it yourself. I'm still sloooow with my build-ups, but I'm getting faster.

To answer your original question, you can call J&V and request a catalogue which will give you some model #s for different toe styles and heel heights.

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#34 Post by dw » Mon Sep 30, 2002 8:08 am

Jake, Riley,

Re-reading my last post, I can see how my final comment may have come off as a criticism. Sorry about that...nothing personal, no intent.

As I was writing it, I was thinking was that it is a common mistake (one I have made often enough) to substitute "money for muscle." Especially when you are first starting out. I have had students who despite my recommendation of used sewing machines went out and bought new ones--only to find that they were too stiff, to fast, too tight...whatever...to sew comfortably. $5000.00 vs $450.00...that's alot of resources that can't be used for leather, lasts, or other tools and machines.

Even if you are really "slooow," at roughly $100.00 a pair, you can build up several pairs of lasts before you reach equivalence. And what's worse, you never develop that "eye" because you are relying on the lastmaker to provide it for you.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Lasts

#35 Post by jake » Mon Sep 30, 2002 9:26 am

D.W., Riley,

I may not have explained myself good enough on a point I made above. Pertaining to stepping-back a size, I found if you make a last much longer to obtain a specific toe style, the customer could drag their toe.

I'm really careful with this aspect. I know I'm probably flirting with disaster. Last are made for a specific "shank" length, etc., etc.

Any thoughts D.W.?

For instance, take a feller with a toe profile like a fist. Can we fit him with a 1/2" box toe?

User avatar
gcunning
4
4
Posts: 156
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Gary
Location: Wichita Falls, TX, USA

Re: Lasts

#36 Post by gcunning » Mon Sep 30, 2002 10:50 am

Riley,
Don't you live in the DFW area? What DW and Jake are describing is very much the same way Carl Chappell showed me. Jake has a good point - when you are right next to "experience" they can show you how better than describe it. My point is give Carl a call and go see him. He lives about an hour from DFW. He is real good about helping people.
Jake how is your sander??

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#37 Post by dw » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:16 am

Jake,
For instance, take a feller with a toe profile like a fist. Can we fit him with a 1/2" box toe?

Only if he insists... Image

Seriously though, I'm with you about shank lengths, etc.. In fact, I believe that fitting the shank length is *the* most important consideration when it comes to fitting the length of the foot.

But the problem, as I see it, is that lasts have "lines." So, if we take a last that is shorter than what the shank/foot length calls for, build up at the back of the heel to get the shank length correct...now you have a size 10 with a short forepart. That's useful in some circumstances but just putting a sharp toe on that last is still a bit problematic. Because you still have to fit the footprint of the foot within the bottom paper of the last. So, once that's addressed, you're left with trying to go to a narrow toe on a real wide forepart without the benefit of the extra length...suddenly it's real hard to preserve or even respect the lines of the last. I don't know about anyone else but that's where I always end up with french fries. But if you fit the shank and then fit the footprint, any foot that is wide will generally require runners on the sides of the last unless you start with a wide last to begin with. Adding runners alters the lines of the last and can affect how much length you need to add to the toe to sharpen it up.

That said, I guess it depends on how much you add to the end of the last. I can't narrow it down much except to say that on most lasts adding three-eighths inch in length is pretty close to enough. Now I assume three full sizes for a medium round last beyond the length of the foot, but some makers might even consider that too short. So I'm not too worried about four or even five full sizes (although inch and a half *is* pushing it a bit) the real issue is that if the customer insists...what choice do you have? I believe he'll be more unhappy with a spud than a toe that's turned up a little.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Lasts

#38 Post by jake » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:43 am

D.W.,

LMAO (laughing my &*# off)! Image

Very well explained indeed. I forgot to mention adding to the heel to get the correct shank length in my explanation. As you can see, I can't work and talk on the forum at the same time.

I've got a few pairs of boots (of mine) that I show customers to explain what happens in my example. Sometimes I can talk them out of it, and put them in a more esthetic boot. Sometimes they insists, and I make notes on the order form that I informed the customer. I'm very familiar with this senario, because I'm one of those people who's toes make almost a fist-like profile.

I guess that's why some people add build-ups to the top of the last instead of runners on the side of the last. You can sure make a tatter real quick. I've made a bunch of them.

I appreciate the explanation.

User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Lasts

#39 Post by jake » Mon Sep 30, 2002 11:55 am

Gary,

Hey Partner! I love it!

Seems like I can stick a boot deeper into it than anything I've tried to date. And better yet, I don't worry about my tops anymore.

Thanks a million!

rileycraig
2
2
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Riley G.

Re: Lasts

#40 Post by rileycraig » Mon Sep 30, 2002 6:22 pm

Gary,

I'm about 35 miles south of the DFW area, and I've heard that Carl is really good about helping people. It just so happens that I spoke with his wife this week-end and she was saying that he had just started a new school, so I won't bother him...at least not now. Grin!

I ended up calling JV and the guy I spoke with acted like he wasn't aware that he even worked for a last company. He said he would have someone phone me in the morning. Whew! All this for three numbers...I'm digging out the scraps and press cement in the morning!

I appreciate the response guys...it DID help!

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

Dr. Noah Tall

Re: Lasts

#41 Post by Dr. Noah Tall » Mon Sep 30, 2002 7:35 pm

Ah yes, the old controversy. Which comes first the tater or the turnip.

Bill Tippit

Re: Lasts

#42 Post by Bill Tippit » Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:00 am

Geez. I check every day for conversations about lasts and I miss ONE day and all hell (or is it "heel&#34Image breaks loose. Being a "former" last maker I'm not going to get into the do's and don't's of time spent on build ups versus time spent on boot making. To each his own there. However, for what it's worth, here are some numbers that might help you out Riley.

TLW-0004 1 5/8" Narrow Round Lama (J) Toe
TLW-0012 1 1/2" Medium Square Luchesse "Chisel" Toe
TLW-0107 1 1/2" Medium Round Luchesse Toe
TLW-0001 1 1/2" Medium Round Lama (R) Toe
TLW-0025 1 3/8" Medium Square "Snoot" Toe
TLW-0311 1 3/8" Medium Square "Underslung Snoot" Toe (Krentler's old #8261)

I've listed the shorter heel heights because these measurements are taken at the breast of the heel and if you're looking for 1 5/8" at the back of the heel they will come fairly close.

Missed being at the Roundup. Miss last making. Miss you guys. Missed my midnight snack so it's time for a big breakfast.

Bill "The LOST Last Maker" Tippit

PS - DW, I've lost my username and password (new life, new wife, new pc). Can you email them to me again and this time I'll have them tatooed on my arm.

Bill Tippit

Re: Lasts

#43 Post by Bill Tippit » Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:03 am

One more thing. I don't have a photographic memory. I've still got a copy of my old TLW/Sterling/JV catalog. Whenever in doubt anyone can ask me about a particular style and I'd be happy to give you the number or even scan a page and email it to you.

Bill

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#44 Post by dw » Tue Oct 01, 2002 6:23 am

Bill,

If you miss lastmaking...there's a sure remedy...get back into it! We need you!!! Pleeeze! pleeze, pleeze pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease....

I almost think JV bought you guys out for the sole purpose of eliminating any and all competition. The decisions they have made right from the get go, including dumping Jason, have almost seemed calculated to destroy the custom last business. You see how hard it is for us to get lasts now. One more step down that road and we won't have anyone we can turn to. It's scary.

Re: your password and username. I don't have anyway of knowing your password. It gets encoded the minute it is entered. I can find your username, change your password to something generic, and then email them both to you, but I don't have your email address. So you'll need to send that to me.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

Lisa Sorrell

Re: Lasts

#45 Post by Lisa Sorrell » Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:23 am

I'm in the final stages of renovating and moving into my new shop, so I've been too busy to do more than read my forum mail. But for this I'll definitely take time to post:

Bill,
I'll chime right in with D.W. Please, please, PLEASE come back. We miss you and your beautiful lasts and your knowledge and the fact that we could deal directly with you the lastmaker not some flunky with a minumum wage job answering the phone! The Boot and Saddlemakers Roundup isn't the same without you! We miss you!

Lisa

bultsad

Re: Lasts

#46 Post by bultsad » Tue Oct 01, 2002 7:59 am

Bill,
You didn't do something nasty, like sign a no-compete clause, did you?
Jim

User avatar
jake
7
7
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Jake
Location: Mountain View, Arkansas, USA

Re: Lasts

#47 Post by jake » Tue Oct 01, 2002 8:59 am

Bill,

Let me get in on the bandwagon........

PLEEEEEEASE! Image

Good to hear from you again. Don't be such a stranger.

P.S. We had some "panther piss" left over!

fneiii

Re: Lasts

#48 Post by fneiii » Tue Oct 01, 2002 10:22 am

Everyone,
Don't forget there is still someone making last you can deal with, Montana Last Company in Pony, Montana. It would be nice to have Mr. Tippit back in business, he was very helpful and patient with a newbie.
Frank English

rileycraig
2
2
Posts: 61
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 1998 7:01 pm
Full Name: Riley G.

Re: Lasts

#49 Post by rileycraig » Tue Oct 01, 2002 4:37 pm

Bill,

Thank you for posting the numbers of the last. I'm certain, at some point they will come in handy.

I've never had any dealings with you, but the rest of the crew certainly seem to want you making last again. I promise, I was not trying to be funny yesterday when I said that the guy at JV talked like he didn't even work at a last company. He did not return my call today, as he said he would, so I called them again...the person I spoke to yesterday was busy (YES!!!), so I thought maybe I could get a response from this new person ha! ha!...the joke was on me. The only two people I've ever spoken with at JV who even had a clue was Dave and April...both were out today.

Good Bootmaking,

Riley

shane
2
2
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:05 pm
Full Name: shane deeter
Location: La Sal, Utah, USA
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#50 Post by shane » Tue Oct 01, 2002 5:38 pm

riley,
Dave and April are the only ones that I will talk to. I use my old last catalog from Bill to give them the model numbers I want. For the lasts you want the follwing numbers should work. TLW 0004 for a pointy toe, TLW 0225 for narrow round toe( this is the model use), TLW 0001 medium round( I also use this alot). These will all yield 1 5/8 heel more or less. I am like DW and Jake in the sense that I make any toe shape using buildups on a medium to narrow round last. I hope these numbers help.
Bill oh Bill will you come back Bill.
Thats all I got to say bout that. ( Forrest Gump)
Frank, how are montana lasts to use, how is the company to deal with? What do they cost? Any one else used them?
Thanks Shane

Post Reply