Lasts

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
Post Reply
Message
Author
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Lasts

#426 Post by jesselee »

Lance

Did you do the reshaping or Nasser? They just look so real/authentic to the principles of the foot. My personal lasts are the ones I made the brogans on and wow, what a fit. I hav studied last formations nigh onto 40+ years, and I'll stack the CW period last by any company against any modern last. And it looks like you are getting that configuration.
Now, tell me about the heel. Is it flat on the bottom or curved to cradle the under heel. I can get you pics of original lasts if you like for your record, just email me for them.

Cheers,
JesseLee
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#427 Post by dearbone »

Lance,

I finished taking the rough out of the lasts and sanded them down smooth so far, i left the square toe on them,i sort of like it,i like the way you rounded that toe,i was thinking what kind of shoes to make on them,i think some sort of an oxford will be a good start, but that will be a while.

Nasser
lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#428 Post by lancepryor »

JesseLee:

That is my handiwork, for better or worse. I do have the benefit of owning some bespoke lasts made by Terry Moore, so I have those to model my lasts' shape after, and the 'blanks' are the same as what Terry uses. In looking at Terry's lasts, I think one can really see the foot in there -- they seem to have almost a muscular structure/appearance to them. It may also be that my foot lends itself to this result -- very high arch, narrow heel, wide forefoot, all of which require a last with alot of curvature and shape.

The heel has a bit of curvature to the bottom, but I imagine less than the older lasts that you refer to and those about which Al has previously written. I retained a feather-line on the heel, but someday I may do away with that in favor of a more curved heel bottom.

Nasser:

I'm sure you know this, but make sure you check the measurements before you make any shoes on the lasts -- these blanks are oversized in the girth dimensions to allow you to take off wood and get down to your desired measurements.

Lance
jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: Lasts

#429 Post by jesselee »

Lance

I remain impressed that bootmakers are seeing, as you do, that last making is part of a small shop. In the 1860's last style there was a definitive ridge to the heel and ball area. The arch area had no edge, thus feathering was to the discretion of the shoe/boot maker. If the old guy may state a comment. I see that you have an aptitude for your observances and the ability to translate them to the blank,
I am a great admirer of lasts, though my collection only goes back to the mid 1700's and I have few, but upon each antique, I have opted to create a period shoe or boot, and by comparison to the existing models and photographs, the last is truly the first (I may have stolen that from Bill, or...).
Also, an aspect I have not seen brought up here, is the cutting contours of the inner sole ergo on historical boots and shoes.
Unlike the 90% cuts of the inner sole of 20th. century footwear, 19th. century footwear had the inner soles cut differently. The last divided into ball, arch and heel for instance. The innersole was cut 90% at the ball and toe, feathered at the arch and a 45% angle at the heel area.
I have seen from the late 1700's to the late 19th. century that the innersoles were wetted and molded to the last befor cutting. I am not sure what the boot makers of today do as I am lost back over 100 years ago in all of this sillyness. But I do know of many repro Rev war and Civil War makers who last the uppers on dry innersoles! For shame!

Cheers,
JesseLee
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#430 Post by dearbone »

lance,

Thanks for the warning, i noticed the the high girth on these lasts and that's a good thing from my perspective, i also have narrow heels, high arches and not so wide foreparts, as usual with this kind of process,i first make a shoe on a pair of lasts that fit me,than i fine tune from there.
I wonder if your friend Mr, Terry Moore has a women range of the same shape lasts?

Nasser
lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#431 Post by lancepryor »

Nasser:

I think Terry predominantly makes men's lasts, since his employer is really in the men's bespoke trade; however, I've seen pictures of a pair or two of women's shoes made, I assume, on some of Terry's lasts. My impression is that he uses the same blanks, but perhaps he orders a smaller width/girth to start working on, given that most women's feet have smaller girths than do men's feet. I ordered a couple of smaller pairs of blanks to make lasts for my wife and her sister, and I think I ordered D widths, which should still provide ample wood.

Terry does bespoke lasts exclusively, so he would not have a range of lasts at all; he simply calls up his blank supplier and orders a pair of blanks based on his measurements of the customer's feet.

Of course, one issue with these blanks is that they have a 7/8" or so heel, which may not be what most women would be looking for.

Lance
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#432 Post by dearbone »

Lance,

Here is a pair of lasts that i like to get a range from one day,it is very similar to the lasts above,but with a very smart toe shape, the reason i collects (prefer)my lasts in ranges or sets is that,i used to make shoes for a store and also theater groups which demanded the same style uppers,but in many different sizes.i have few sets of women high heels lasts,but not a good set of low heels.BTW, young women slowly realizing (at least in this country)that high heels shoes worn for long hours are damaging to feet and spine which usually appear after 40.
8825.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#433 Post by dw »

Lance, Nasser, all,

I have a question and comments...first the comments as the questions follow...

The rough-cuts that Lance and Nasser have shown look very interesting. I would give them a try if I could buy one rough size pair...like Mr. Terry Moore does. I find that to be an appealing concept but I don't suppose they could be offered in single pairs much less cheaply than more refined lasts.

The thing that strikes me, however, is that what you fellers are doing is what you would do with a finished last anyway...as bespoke makers, I mean. You would just do it with build-ups instead of cutting down. And for those of us with very little experience (I wish I had more) we would be pushing the envelope as to whether the last had been cut too far or whether the pair matched for shape and contour in a way that would not be pushing the envelope if build-ups were put on a finished last, rather than cutting it down. This is not criticism, it's simply free-association, sort of--random, or maybe not-so-random thoughts.

Another comment...Nasser's lasts above seem to have a high instep/cone. I recently ran across something in HMSFM that suggested that German and east European shoemakers preferred a higher cone last than the British, for example. This is starting to look more like what I would call a "boot last" than a typical West End shoe last.

Yet...and here's my question...I see many makers--the photos here and from HMSFM--that put build-ups on the cone of the last to accommodate their customers...effectively raising the cone.

All things being equal, why would you put the build-up on the top of the cone rather than somewhere else...such as under the medial arch? Or along the sides of the cone? It's not like the short or long heel measurement is being referenced...or even given any attention.

If the pedograph suggest a lateral bulge, OK, I'd tend to build up there first; or if the pedograph indicated a high arch I'd feel justified putting the build-up on the cone but...all things being equal, remember?...why just on the top of the cone as the first choice?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#434 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

A number of thoughts -- though remember, I'm not a lastmaker, just someone experimenting and pretending to be one!

First off, the blank is a copy of one I got from Terry, and the blank has been digitized and can be ordered in single pairs, though I don't think at this point the factory would be interested in a single-pair order. However, if there were sufficient interest from a bunch of people in ordering one or two pairs, we might be able to create a sufficiently large order to make it worthwhile. Alternatively, if/when I decide to reorder some pairs, I will give HCC members the chance to piggy-back on my order.

I believe the price may be well below what a finished pair from Bill costs, since the factory needs not invest the effort to finish the toe or the heel -- still, I don't think this is about saving alot of money, but rather affording flexibility in creating a pair of bespoke lasts.

Now, as for the question of how this differs from simply altering a finished last.... I guess, in some sense it doesn't -- as you've noted previously, a really skilled maker can make a 9EEE out of a 7A, so in that regard there is no real difference. However, some things that occur to me. First, to me it is easier to take off wood than to do build-ups -- not that I can't do the latter, but I would rather take wood off and be left with a solid wood last, rather than one with bits of leather here and there. Second, I think this approach affords easier flexibility in creating the desired insole shape, since there is surplus wood available (assuming one orders a blank of sufficiently large girth). With the extra wood, you can transfer your desired insole shape to the blank, and then easily create the feather line using your rasp/surform/microplane, whereas with a finished last, you have to do build-ups to alter the insole shape, which I think may be a lot more work. I know for reasons of economy you prefer to add on rather than take wood off, but that strategy requires you to start with a last that is under measurement and dimension in all areas, and for many feet that might require alot of build-ups -- for example, my feet have, let's say, a B heel and a EE forefoot, so to fit my heel width you'd end up doing alot of building up of the forefoot and the instep. Again, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' approach, just a question of which is the easier way to get there.

I think you might be surprised how relatively straightforward working with these blanks is -- they have most of the shape 'built in,' so in taking the wood down you mainly want to maintain the existing shape while reducing the dimensions -- of course, perhaps my comments merely reflect my ignorance of the subtleties of lastmaking. Check back after I've made lasts for lots of other people's feet. Still, I really hope the next order you'll give it a try -- I honestly think you will enjoy it.

Now, as for shape and the cone, etc. Terry starts his work based on the actual shape/tracing of the foot. In essence, he puts the blank on top of this tracing and works to bring the margins of the last down to the margins of the foot, so if there is a big lateral bulge, I think his finished lasts would incorporate the idiosyncrasies of the individual foot. Of course, based on his decades of experience, I am sure Terry also incorporates changes to improve the look of the finished shoe and to ensure optimal fit. However, once the last is to shape, if the last needs to be built up to reach the desired girths, the logical place would be on top of the last or somewhere on the bottom surface, since the outside margins of the last are now reflective of the foot itself.

Certainly in my case, adding a build-up in the waist of the shoe would be inappropriate, since I have a very high arch and instep (my foot prints with no or almost no ink at the arch). Perhaps the reason for the build-up on top of the cone is mere ease -- it's certainly much easier to shape the cone that to rework the sides of the last.

FWIW, Terry does take a LH and SH measurements, and looking at the lasts he made for me the lasts do seem to honor those, so I wouldn't necessarily say he isn't referencing them.

As to the different styles of shoe, what stands out to me in the German/E. European shoes is the high, bulbous toe box. That is not to say their lasts don't have a higher cone, perhaps they do, but that seems less apparent to me once the shoe is on the foot.

Hope that provides some more food for thought.

Lance
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#435 Post by dearbone »

Dw,

working down the blanks is not hard, as Lance said the lines of the lasts are there to guide toward the desired shape,this is i call,bespoke on a budget,but true bespoke like probably Mack's shoes which i thing the lasts are made for that person,they do the same at Lobb according to what i heard. the last i posted above is London made by G CARE.
I personally don't like the lasts shapes of the German/Austrian/Italian or E European, they tend to be wide (meaty)all along and low instep/cone, and not so interesting toe shapes,it might be true that their shoe makers prefer the high cone,but that's not what they get from the local last makers and that's not what we see in HMSFM Although the workmanship is excellent.

Nasser
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#436 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Just to clarify...on page 48 of HMSFM the very first last is identified as a German style last and the description implies that it is characteristic of German style lasts to have a high instep. Al Saguto sent me a last to look at last year that was German in origin...it too had a higher cone than the West End last I have been playing with.

I might add that the last depicted in HMSFM does not have a bulbous toe. And toe shapes are the first thing a maker should learn to modify.

All that said, I don't know...all I am going by is what I've seen and read.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#437 Post by dw »

Lance,

On page 46 and 47 of HMSFM is shown the process by which a particular last is fitted up. From the photo on page 46, I would not necessarily put a build-up in the lateral waist (although it is hard to really tell) but the fitter has. I would definitely put a build-up at the lateral joint and the fitter has done that, too. But he has also put a huge and rather unrefined (to my eyes) build-up over the cone. It is this sequence, in part, that prompted my question...although somewhere, in HMSFM or in some of the photos I have seen of big name bespoke makers in Europe, I have seen double build-ups on the cone and nothing else.

That and when I first started exploring this path, several noted and respected shoemakers told me that the short heel and long heel weren't really taken into account in shoemaking. I am gratified to know that Terry Moore sees things the same as I do...it gives me a touchstone.

As for building up a last to fit or cutting a rough down...I see benefits in both approaches. Part of me (my adventurous, reckless and intuitive side) naturally gravitates toward cutting the last but the other part--the logical part--isn't as sanguine.

Since I have built up most of my career all I can say is that I have found it entirely easier to build up...uniformly...than to cut down. If I want to add an eighth of an inch to the lateral waist I can do that and control its substance and its location pretty exactly by virtue of the size and thickness of the build-up I use. I can literally see I am adding one-eighth inch...or that I am adding more, or less.

On the other hand, if I want to take off an eighth of an inch in the waist, all I have to go by is girth measurement...and that doesn't tell me a thing about how much wood I have actually removed in anyone particular place. I can easily imagine a waist measurement, derived by cutting from a larger size, that is identical in girth, but lower in profile as it approaches the featherline, on one last than on the other. You follow?

I understand that it is feel and experience and eye...and that's the magic...but it is magic, not logic. I think have a fair amount of that experience and feel and eye but I am not so certain I am willing to take the consequences if it turns out I don't have enough...especially with a paying customer.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#438 Post by dearbone »

DW,

One thing i meant to say about this book for some time,i don't think it was written by shoe makers or people who are shoe making teachers,but by publishers and maybe some museum or costume maker,not to mention the translation from Hungarian to German and to English,few members referred to those mistakes like on page 155, not describing correctly the function of the stitch marker, there is also anther mistake on page 163,Paul noticed how it incorrectly naming the parts of the heel, not saying it might be wrong again here,but generally speaking and form my observation of the Germanic people feet during the years, that they generally have broad (wide) foreparts and instep and again speaking in general, geography (land scape)has a lot to do with shaping of the foot,for example, the foot of person,whether he/she grow up walking on rocks(mountains) or plains,sand or pavement or grass, they shape differently.

Nasser
User avatar
dw
Seanchaidh
Posts: 5830
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 204 times
Been Liked: 122 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#439 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Well, I am aware that it is flawed. Too bad, I say. But it is also something pretty unique--a look at shoemaking on a level that has never been done before...as a coffee-table book. Admittedly, there is lots to give someone who is knowledgeable pause but there's also lots to enchant and learn from.

As for the differences between German style lasts and West End style lasts...I really and sincerely don't Know. I have several models of West End style last, but I have only seen the one pair of German style that Al sent me and the photos in HMSFM.

I just used what little I know (or thought I knew) about German style lasts as an entre to the question about putting a build-up over the cone.

When I first started looking at making shoes, I tried to make some on my boot lasts....at least partially because I was trying to accommodate the short and long heel in a similar way to how I use them to make boots. The upshot was a shoe that some thought looked "choked." I got the impression that it was because my boot lasts were judged to have too high a cone...

And now you know the rest of the story. Image

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member
fishball
2
2
Posts: 55
Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2008 11:47 pm
Full Name: Alexander A. W. W. Yu
Location: Hong Kong, Hong Kong

Re: Lasts

#440 Post by fishball »

Lance,

When you order the blank last next time, I would like to join in for a pair. Thanks.
large_shoemaker_at_large
4
4
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:41 am
Full Name: Brendan Balon
Location: Fort Qu'Appelle, SK, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time

Re: Lasts

#441 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Dw
Lance and Nasser, are what I seem to be on the money.
My2 .5 cents Canadian. As for adding to the medial arch to gain girth VS adding to the cone ??? To do a bit of biomechanics . The ankle axis is off set from the tibia and fibula rear and laterally. To an angle radiating from the medial. being more forward than the lateral, exact degrees escape me. So adding to the cone medially is more in line with the forward motion of the foot.

The insole how ever made is a form of orthtotic and determines the way the heel strike and moves from a pronated state (mid stance) to a supinated rigid foot at toe off.
When we make orthotics we basiclay alter these "force moments" to get a mechanical smooth gait, given stock genaric last footwear.

Again the angle of the toe break on a last has a certian amount of influance of the gait as it may aid or impede the individual's foot stance from good to bad. As mentioned the geographics and race et al would have a local effect on a regional last design. But as we now travel and mix these regional styles have sort of went the way of the local saddle maker also. As Pelvis, leg structure, length, and riding styles have changed.

I had a set of lasts made by Mr L. Bird an "outworker" for J.Lobbs in London in 1982. They were very east end and I had to do a little fitting up to get the desired fit. But hey looked a lot like a bunch of WW11 British/Canadain lasts I have with a medial cone, A medial heel wedge and a generous toe with a tight waist, higher heel, some thing like a munston last.

Doing ortho work gives you a point of view that understands why moving a the ball angle and heel angle fore and aft and dorsal and planer, have a big impact on wearabilty and comfort.

Could expand ad infunum but bed time for bonso
luckyduck

Re: Lasts

#442 Post by luckyduck »

Ok,

I have a beginner last modifying question. My wife has a pair of shoes I made her and now wants a molded leather over 1/8" poron insole like her sandals have in a new pair. She walks 4-6 miles per day and that will be the main use for them.

So, do I build up the top of the last for the extra or do I add to the bottom of the last? The total thickness of the insole is not quite 1/4" (6mm)

Thanks.

Paul
lancepryor
7
7
Posts: 662
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:42 am
Full Name: lance pryor
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#443 Post by lancepryor »

Paul:

If you are going to make the shoes with all of the insole material on the last, then there should be no reason to alter the last -- for example, we don't modify a last to reflect different thicknesses of insole leather. The only time you would need to adjust the last to add volume is if you are going to insert something into the interior of the shoe after the shoe is made. In the latter case, I believe the add-on is generally done to the bottom of the last, though saying I'm no expert on orthopedics is a gross understatement.

Lance
artzend
7
7
Posts: 519
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Tim Skyrme
Location: Agnes Water, Queensland, Australia
Been Liked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#444 Post by artzend »

Paul

I agree with Lance about the insole thickness, but if you have to build up, I would always build up the top of the last. The reason being that building that much on the bottom would alter the line and possibly the pitch of the last.

This thread is going to get a lot of differing opinions I reckon.

Tim
luckyduck

Re: Lasts

#445 Post by luckyduck »

Hey Lance and Tim,

What I am talking about is like an orthotic insert. I have already failed at making the insole that you build on as lumpy as I want. It will not lay well against the last and gave unsatisfactory results.

I can see it both Tim's way and the opposite. If you built up the top, at least the heel bulge area will be off after putting in the insert. If you build the bottom out that far, it would round way under at the heel and look odd. Maybe not follow the line of the last and go vertical on the bottom of the heel?

Thanks again.

Paul
large_shoemaker_at_large
4
4
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:41 am
Full Name: Brendan Balon
Location: Fort Qu'Appelle, SK, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time

Re: Lasts

#446 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Paul
I would add it to the bottom. Just don't undercut the edge to follow the last's curve. 3/16 should not throw out the line to much and it has to be the same thickness from heel to toe so you don't affect the pitch.

Saying that if I make and insulated boot I build up the whole last so after lasting, the insulation compressed during lasting will spring inward to the cavity left were the last was. The upper leather will hold it's shape and the lighter lining will move first.

If you want to mold the leather to the bottom of the last including a met pad you will have to dampen you leather, do a bit of gentle tapping with the hammer then wrap a hard sponge or similar against the insole with pantyhose or an elastic bandage to hold the leather till it dries and hold it's shape. Then you must fill in those undercuts with something firm enough to keep the shape. Cork works well.
mmboots

Re: Lasts

#447 Post by mmboots »

Need some help.

I'm working on a set of last in which the measurement on the last match the foot expect for the high instep and the short heel measurement. In the past I've always had to add some to get the measurement at the lo instep to match the foot. I'm not sure if I just need to add the build up to a very small area on top of the cone, which I think will make the boot not look smooth. Thanks for any help in advance.

Mike
paul
8
8
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 14 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#448 Post by paul »

Mike,



I'd look at my outline of the heel to see if the build could be added to the curvature of the heel area, making it wider.

The first time I was faced with needing to build the SH, I saw the gap in my string as it went around the girth. It was all along the sides of the heel section. Then I realized that a last with a large SH would be wider in that area. The cone at the High Instep could be some wider too.

I figured we need to respect the heel width. So after estabilshing that correct measurement, I go ahead a build up to the outline I've drawn around the profile.

I begin by cementing a piece of two oz. splilt, that comes from the back of the heel up to the Low Instep line, on both sides and bring it across the hinge area. And then I build from there. Don't forget to cut the hinge free, both in the wedge and the cut at the bottom.

Good Luck,

Paul
User avatar
romango
8
8
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
Full Name: Rick Roman
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Been Liked: 8 times
Contact:

Re: Lasts

#449 Post by romango »

I have a potential customer that takes a US size 18 shoe (narrow). I'm not sure where to start looking for such a last.

Any of you friendly folks out there have suggestions?
User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Been Liked: 3 times

Re: Lasts

#450 Post by dearbone »

Rick,

If you find a size 18 last which i doubt,it's fine and dandy,but what i do in situations like this, i pick the biggest last i have, (size 13 or 14) and start adding to it until you get to the size you want and do not forget to make a fitter first.

Nasser
Post Reply