Erick Wilcox
Unknowns are the problem for computers and digitizing.
We assume that vintage lasts( pick your date ) had symmetry and logic in design thru out the run. Standard parameters of today like shank are "predictable" and programmable,but the early
shapes were "eyed" and generally without standard
which makes confusing fodder for the geek-heads
scripting pprograms( except Tippit, the-one-exception to the rule).
This is not expert opinion. Its ramblings from an interviewer of some who opined and should know.
pablo
Lasts
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relferink
Re: Lasts
Erick,
It is know that the grading machines looses details as the size goes further from the original model. I don't know if you have ever laid eyes on one of those machines (a quick internet search did not come up with anything) but imagine a machine with on one end a mechanical sensor "feeling" the original last as it rotates. On the other end a pair of lasts are milled out. In between are a group of levers en pullies that allow the last maker to grade up or down. Since the whole process is mechanical, friction and wear of the many parts make the result a little less than perfect. As the size span you try to grade get larger the machine becomes disproportionately less exact. I'll try to explain. Take a 2 foot stick and write you name in the snow in front of you. Now take a 20 foot stick and do the same. The first letter will be much clearer, not because you did not write as well on the second try but through the long lever every deviation gets multiplied by 10.
The machines are huge industrial machines that once in place are suppose to function for decades. Over time play on the mechanical systems makes them less reliable. The last time I saw one of those machines was in the former East Germany just after the wall had fallen. I'm sure there are still a few around but one of the problems an owner would have is to find qualified mechanics to work on such a complex machine.
With digitized last making I would imagine that the grading is a lot easier. Of course it's not just shrinking or blowing up a model, you have to be aware of edges getting sharper as you grade down and this can cause material failure or problems with other machines in a shoe factory. The investment needed to develop the software and hardware is major, it's a very small market and every dollar needs to be made back by selling lasts.If last making were a very profitable and much in demand industrie we would have an abundant number of vendors to draw from. The only Substantial investments made in the last industry are in the far east. Every factory not near mass shoe production is having a very hard time.
Hope this explanation helps in the understanding of the mystery of lasts.
Rob
It is know that the grading machines looses details as the size goes further from the original model. I don't know if you have ever laid eyes on one of those machines (a quick internet search did not come up with anything) but imagine a machine with on one end a mechanical sensor "feeling" the original last as it rotates. On the other end a pair of lasts are milled out. In between are a group of levers en pullies that allow the last maker to grade up or down. Since the whole process is mechanical, friction and wear of the many parts make the result a little less than perfect. As the size span you try to grade get larger the machine becomes disproportionately less exact. I'll try to explain. Take a 2 foot stick and write you name in the snow in front of you. Now take a 20 foot stick and do the same. The first letter will be much clearer, not because you did not write as well on the second try but through the long lever every deviation gets multiplied by 10.
The machines are huge industrial machines that once in place are suppose to function for decades. Over time play on the mechanical systems makes them less reliable. The last time I saw one of those machines was in the former East Germany just after the wall had fallen. I'm sure there are still a few around but one of the problems an owner would have is to find qualified mechanics to work on such a complex machine.
With digitized last making I would imagine that the grading is a lot easier. Of course it's not just shrinking or blowing up a model, you have to be aware of edges getting sharper as you grade down and this can cause material failure or problems with other machines in a shoe factory. The investment needed to develop the software and hardware is major, it's a very small market and every dollar needs to be made back by selling lasts.If last making were a very profitable and much in demand industrie we would have an abundant number of vendors to draw from. The only Substantial investments made in the last industry are in the far east. Every factory not near mass shoe production is having a very hard time.
Hope this explanation helps in the understanding of the mystery of lasts.
Rob
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das
- Seanchaidh
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Re: Lasts
Hey, didn't any enterprising folks pick up on Jim Bowman's ad a couple of months over in 'Boughton Green Fair"--that he's selling some last lathes, grading machines, etc.?
Jim used to turn all our wooden ones, later he switched to plastic. It'll be too bad if that stuff goes overseas. Ain't nobody interested in making lasts anymore?
Jim used to turn all our wooden ones, later he switched to plastic. It'll be too bad if that stuff goes overseas. Ain't nobody interested in making lasts anymore?
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relferink
Re: Lasts
JP, Are you talking about custom lasts or stock lasts? I've been taking about stock lasts as was the posted question about. I do occasionally make wooden custom lasts but have to admit it's been a some time. Please let me know if you make a line of stock lists. I would be very interested.
Rob
Rob
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Anonymous
Re: Lasts
I have been reading this site for a while and think it's great. Anyway, e-bay has a huge lot of lasts for sale (8000 pounds worth), located in Canada. I don't know much about them; I assume they are shoe lasts, but still... If anyone is interested, here's the web address:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2884425340&category=14879
(I hope this hasn't violated the non-profit policies of this board; if so, I apologize. FWIW, I have no personal stake in the auction cited.)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2884425340&category=14879
(I hope this hasn't violated the non-profit policies of this board; if so, I apologize. FWIW, I have no personal stake in the auction cited.)
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dw
- Seanchaidh
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Re: Lasts
Anon,
No problem...and Thanks!
Welcome to The Crispin Colloquy, BTW. Why don't you register and introduce yourself?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
No problem...and Thanks!
Welcome to The Crispin Colloquy, BTW. Why don't you register and introduce yourself?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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btippit
Re: Lasts
To all:
Just got back in the country from Mexico and was glad to see a dialog about lasts going. I'll try to be as brief as possible with my comments but you guys got a real good head start on me.
First I think we have to understand that whether using model makers and conventional turning lathes or computer programs and CNC lathes, our industry has been trying to grade size runs of lasts that are supposed to (at least relatively) fit sizes of feet that our Creator didn't bother to "grade" when he made them. So, it's not a question of software matching the old methods and therefore maintaining good fit because, as I've said many times, there's no such thing as a size 9D anyway. Our sizes are just arbitrary references that will either give the customer in the store (or online nowadays) something he/she feels is close to a good fit or give you guys/gals a base from which to work to REALLY give them a good fit. Having said that, I'll add my opinions to some of the excerpts from this conversation.
While I appreciate Pablo singling me out as an exception to the "geek-head" rule I have to say that when I was at JV, we developed the Compu-Last system working very closely with our model room at the time. Every computerized lathe system out there now is basically a slightly tweaked version of Compu-Last so the same grading principles apply. As for the 3D design software now being used to create the initial styles and do the grading, I think I can safely say that Lectra's Romans CAD software is the unquestioned leader in this area and the developers (another company called Strategies) have worked for over 14 years with myself and many other last makers around the world to try to take the painstaking methods of doing this all by hand and create a very strong CAD system that allows the model maker to do the same thing digitally and then output the data to a CNC lathe or some other piece of hardware such as a 3-5 axis CNC milling machine, Z-Corp machine, STL machine, or some other rapid prototype device. No function in Romans CAD was developed without lengthy consultation with a last model maker. The other CAD systems out there don't come close to being able to do what Romans CAD does but some are interesting. I would think anyone writing this type of software would consult with the masters but I can only speak for Lectra and Strategies.
Pablo also states that a last graded too far away from the size of a turning model "was graduated to its final size and shape by the judgement of the last maker in the factory ( not the model maker by the way)who used his eye and "some" templates to get the last "right"." In any last factory I've worked with or for, the models are all made by model makers who took great care in not only using templates to maintain shapes like toe profiles and heel curves but also to restrict any distortion in the model that might have come from the model room turning lathe. This distortion can happen when turning a copy on the older lathes...you don't have to grade too far away to get it, though that obviously makes it worse. The only shaping done in the factories was for the toe and heel simply because they were obscured by the dogs that held the last in the lathe during turning.
Erick's question about whether digital lasts such as those produced by JV eliminates distortion is a good one and I believe very strongly that the answer is "yes". When I had The Last Word (and I NEVER have "the last word" in anything anymore), I used that computer grading system to grade as far away from a digitized size 9D model as size 15EEEEEEE (that right, there are 7 of them). The toe and side profiles were maintained (proportional to the 9D of course) and the featherlines did not get noticeably sharper when grading down (also went to a size 4AAAA) or rounder on the larger sizes.
The example of distortion that Robert gives about writing your name with a 2 foot stick and then a 20 foot stick is excellent. We did something similar during the development of Compu-Last to prove that we were maintaining shapes and proportions. We took a machined piece of rectangular material and used it as a "model". I don't remember the exact proportions but let's say it was 1 foot long, 3 inches high and 3 inches wide. We graded up 4 sizes in a regular lathe (the maximum you can go mechanically on most conventional lathes, regardless of whether you care about proportions or not). The graded piece was nowhere near the original 3/4 ratio of height to width. In addition, the sides were no longer flat, having gotten concave as they were graded up. They would have rounded out if we had graded down.
We then digitized that "model" and graded up 4 sizes in Compu-Last. We had the exact same 3/4 ratio and could still put a square on the sides and see that they were flat. Just to push our luck we went up 4 more sizes and the results were the same. We could go as many sizes as we wanted because the mechanics of a CNC lathe are different than a mechanical copy lathe. The "broken arm", pulley-lever, motion is replaced by direct drive servo motors so that we are only limited by the physical size of the machine to accept blocks for turning. This little experiment told us that we could stop wasting the valuable time of our experienced model makers with the making of all of those "accomodation" models (the 4, 6, 10, and 12 that Pablo mentions). These models were only made to correct lathe distortion or to manually put some restictive grade into the size run. The model makers could now focus on new styles and new fit features on their master size 9 (or 8 or 7 or 6...it all depended on the gender and the customer's preference for sample sizing). We knew the machine would no longer destroy their work as the grading took place.
There are still quite a few mechanical lathes being used, even in factories that use CNC equipment like JV. You still have all of those old models for styles that just won't go away so you just turn them on the older lathes. When's the last time you saw a major style change in a workboot or a military last? However, even if someone were to purchase one (or buy Jim's inventory of equipment), it's not as easy as just carving out something, calling it a model, and sticking it in and grading. My personal opinion is that it would be a frustrating, time consuming, job for a boot/shoe maker to try to add that career to his daily schedule as well but stranger things have happened. I keep playing with the idea of getting back into this game (at least on the side) but I'd be doing the design and grading on Romans CAD software and farming the actual production out to last makers I trust with CNC equipment. I can't convince my wife that a CNC lathe would look better in the garage than her car. Besides, after all this time I'm guessing that everyone's relatively happy with what they can get JV to make or going to some of the sources I've suggested in the past.
So, that's it. As you can see, I still like talking about this fine art, even if I don't get to do it anymore.
Bill
Just got back in the country from Mexico and was glad to see a dialog about lasts going. I'll try to be as brief as possible with my comments but you guys got a real good head start on me.
First I think we have to understand that whether using model makers and conventional turning lathes or computer programs and CNC lathes, our industry has been trying to grade size runs of lasts that are supposed to (at least relatively) fit sizes of feet that our Creator didn't bother to "grade" when he made them. So, it's not a question of software matching the old methods and therefore maintaining good fit because, as I've said many times, there's no such thing as a size 9D anyway. Our sizes are just arbitrary references that will either give the customer in the store (or online nowadays) something he/she feels is close to a good fit or give you guys/gals a base from which to work to REALLY give them a good fit. Having said that, I'll add my opinions to some of the excerpts from this conversation.
While I appreciate Pablo singling me out as an exception to the "geek-head" rule I have to say that when I was at JV, we developed the Compu-Last system working very closely with our model room at the time. Every computerized lathe system out there now is basically a slightly tweaked version of Compu-Last so the same grading principles apply. As for the 3D design software now being used to create the initial styles and do the grading, I think I can safely say that Lectra's Romans CAD software is the unquestioned leader in this area and the developers (another company called Strategies) have worked for over 14 years with myself and many other last makers around the world to try to take the painstaking methods of doing this all by hand and create a very strong CAD system that allows the model maker to do the same thing digitally and then output the data to a CNC lathe or some other piece of hardware such as a 3-5 axis CNC milling machine, Z-Corp machine, STL machine, or some other rapid prototype device. No function in Romans CAD was developed without lengthy consultation with a last model maker. The other CAD systems out there don't come close to being able to do what Romans CAD does but some are interesting. I would think anyone writing this type of software would consult with the masters but I can only speak for Lectra and Strategies.
Pablo also states that a last graded too far away from the size of a turning model "was graduated to its final size and shape by the judgement of the last maker in the factory ( not the model maker by the way)who used his eye and "some" templates to get the last "right"." In any last factory I've worked with or for, the models are all made by model makers who took great care in not only using templates to maintain shapes like toe profiles and heel curves but also to restrict any distortion in the model that might have come from the model room turning lathe. This distortion can happen when turning a copy on the older lathes...you don't have to grade too far away to get it, though that obviously makes it worse. The only shaping done in the factories was for the toe and heel simply because they were obscured by the dogs that held the last in the lathe during turning.
Erick's question about whether digital lasts such as those produced by JV eliminates distortion is a good one and I believe very strongly that the answer is "yes". When I had The Last Word (and I NEVER have "the last word" in anything anymore), I used that computer grading system to grade as far away from a digitized size 9D model as size 15EEEEEEE (that right, there are 7 of them). The toe and side profiles were maintained (proportional to the 9D of course) and the featherlines did not get noticeably sharper when grading down (also went to a size 4AAAA) or rounder on the larger sizes.
The example of distortion that Robert gives about writing your name with a 2 foot stick and then a 20 foot stick is excellent. We did something similar during the development of Compu-Last to prove that we were maintaining shapes and proportions. We took a machined piece of rectangular material and used it as a "model". I don't remember the exact proportions but let's say it was 1 foot long, 3 inches high and 3 inches wide. We graded up 4 sizes in a regular lathe (the maximum you can go mechanically on most conventional lathes, regardless of whether you care about proportions or not). The graded piece was nowhere near the original 3/4 ratio of height to width. In addition, the sides were no longer flat, having gotten concave as they were graded up. They would have rounded out if we had graded down.
We then digitized that "model" and graded up 4 sizes in Compu-Last. We had the exact same 3/4 ratio and could still put a square on the sides and see that they were flat. Just to push our luck we went up 4 more sizes and the results were the same. We could go as many sizes as we wanted because the mechanics of a CNC lathe are different than a mechanical copy lathe. The "broken arm", pulley-lever, motion is replaced by direct drive servo motors so that we are only limited by the physical size of the machine to accept blocks for turning. This little experiment told us that we could stop wasting the valuable time of our experienced model makers with the making of all of those "accomodation" models (the 4, 6, 10, and 12 that Pablo mentions). These models were only made to correct lathe distortion or to manually put some restictive grade into the size run. The model makers could now focus on new styles and new fit features on their master size 9 (or 8 or 7 or 6...it all depended on the gender and the customer's preference for sample sizing). We knew the machine would no longer destroy their work as the grading took place.
There are still quite a few mechanical lathes being used, even in factories that use CNC equipment like JV. You still have all of those old models for styles that just won't go away so you just turn them on the older lathes. When's the last time you saw a major style change in a workboot or a military last? However, even if someone were to purchase one (or buy Jim's inventory of equipment), it's not as easy as just carving out something, calling it a model, and sticking it in and grading. My personal opinion is that it would be a frustrating, time consuming, job for a boot/shoe maker to try to add that career to his daily schedule as well but stranger things have happened. I keep playing with the idea of getting back into this game (at least on the side) but I'd be doing the design and grading on Romans CAD software and farming the actual production out to last makers I trust with CNC equipment. I can't convince my wife that a CNC lathe would look better in the garage than her car. Besides, after all this time I'm guessing that everyone's relatively happy with what they can get JV to make or going to some of the sources I've suggested in the past.
So, that's it. As you can see, I still like talking about this fine art, even if I don't get to do it anymore.
Bill
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dw
- Seanchaidh
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Re: Lasts
Bill,
Well, no offense to anyone at JV or elsewhere but since E.J. McDaniel I've never trusted a lastmaker as much as I have you. This Trade has suffered a lot of...what's that lovely medical word?..."insults" (that's it) since I began my career but none that I regretted more than you selling your business. I wish I could convince you to get back into it...if not full time, at least as a hobby. That, or I wish that I had won a big hockey bet with you and could "call in my chips" in lieu of money and "necessitate" your return to what, in your heart, you really want to do, anyway.
Seriously,...we miss you.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, no offense to anyone at JV or elsewhere but since E.J. McDaniel I've never trusted a lastmaker as much as I have you. This Trade has suffered a lot of...what's that lovely medical word?..."insults" (that's it) since I began my career but none that I regretted more than you selling your business. I wish I could convince you to get back into it...if not full time, at least as a hobby. That, or I wish that I had won a big hockey bet with you and could "call in my chips" in lieu of money and "necessitate" your return to what, in your heart, you really want to do, anyway.
Seriously,...we miss you.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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pablo
Re: Lasts
Bill,
Good hearing from an expert again.
To clarify a point that may have passed unnoticed,
and you may wish to expound on it, Erick's initial inquiry I seem to recall was for vintage lasts and how to get repro's off a last he picked up somewhere. In such a last( 100 yr old + or - ) the grading in the run is unknown and the "breaks" on shanks and heel curves, for instance, likewise are unknown. Also, not all widths were standard grading. As late as 1920 Dayton Last and Goodwin Last Co.s differed markedly. So, making a run on such a vintage last would not be a faithful repro of that style because of the unknowns.Even though the digitizing reecognizes that last's parameters, how does the softwear account for the mentioned unknowns( and others)? That was the modification
Erick should understand will occur inspite of the super hi tech.
Its also helpful to realise that precision as we
know it did not exist for those vintage- lastmakers so its not criticism of their work being mentioned but rather attention to what and how the lasts were being made.For the record, there are documents from the late 1800's critical of the lastmakers( not model makers) "eye-ing" the lasts.
Good hearing from an expert again.
To clarify a point that may have passed unnoticed,
and you may wish to expound on it, Erick's initial inquiry I seem to recall was for vintage lasts and how to get repro's off a last he picked up somewhere. In such a last( 100 yr old + or - ) the grading in the run is unknown and the "breaks" on shanks and heel curves, for instance, likewise are unknown. Also, not all widths were standard grading. As late as 1920 Dayton Last and Goodwin Last Co.s differed markedly. So, making a run on such a vintage last would not be a faithful repro of that style because of the unknowns.Even though the digitizing reecognizes that last's parameters, how does the softwear account for the mentioned unknowns( and others)? That was the modification
Erick should understand will occur inspite of the super hi tech.
Its also helpful to realise that precision as we
know it did not exist for those vintage- lastmakers so its not criticism of their work being mentioned but rather attention to what and how the lasts were being made.For the record, there are documents from the late 1800's critical of the lastmakers( not model makers) "eye-ing" the lasts.
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btippit
Re: Lasts
DW
Thank you for you kind, if not totally deserving words. Mac was a great last maker and an even greater guy. Like many of us, I owe him a lot. Another person some of you know who was the greatest influence in both my professional and personal life was Wilson Schaedler. At the age of 86 he is still working with wood every day, though now he focuses on artwork and not lasts. There are some other greats still around too. Maybe at one of the Roundups or HCC gatherings or something we could try to convene a panel of these last making experts for one last "brain picking". Just a thought.
Don't worry. I'm sure I'll get back into the last business on "some" level. It's just a question of timing and the timing is not quite right just yet. Soon though, I hope. Too bad you didn't make the hockey bets this year. You would have cleaned up. We're never going to win anything with Chris Osgood in goal but as Michael always says..."that's Os Good as it gets".
Bill
Thank you for you kind, if not totally deserving words. Mac was a great last maker and an even greater guy. Like many of us, I owe him a lot. Another person some of you know who was the greatest influence in both my professional and personal life was Wilson Schaedler. At the age of 86 he is still working with wood every day, though now he focuses on artwork and not lasts. There are some other greats still around too. Maybe at one of the Roundups or HCC gatherings or something we could try to convene a panel of these last making experts for one last "brain picking". Just a thought.
Don't worry. I'm sure I'll get back into the last business on "some" level. It's just a question of timing and the timing is not quite right just yet. Soon though, I hope. Too bad you didn't make the hockey bets this year. You would have cleaned up. We're never going to win anything with Chris Osgood in goal but as Michael always says..."that's Os Good as it gets".
Bill
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btippit
Re: Lasts
Pablo,
Yes, I guess we got a little off track there. I'm not an expert in the grading methods of any last makers dating back 100 years or so but I can say this. If the parameters are known (how much the shank reach graded between sizes for example or how much the width of the bottom increased per size, regardless of the girth grade used, etc.), our software can incorporate any of those rules into the grading, just like a model maker could make a series of accomodations models with these grades built in. These models then would be used to turn only a small range of sizes, typically from one full size below the model size to 1/2 size above it. That way the "lathe grade" isn't allowed much opportunity to impose its rules rather than those built into the models. With our software, you create grading "groups" that can have the same or different rules. These groups of sizes act as a "digital model". For example from a one size digitation we can:
* grade the length of the last normally but hold the heel to shank area the same in groups of sizes.
* grade the last normally but group toes into size groups to fit steel toe caps (5-6.5 on 6 toe, 7-8.5 on 8 toe, etc.)
* grade from one width to another while maintaining the exact same last bottom (for fitting molded soles, etc.)
* grade normally but restrict the heel height and toe spring to remain constant throughout the run
and on and on. In fact, we now have what we call "double coordination" whereby we can establish six different axis (length, girth, and height in two different regions) and apply this specific grading to any regions of the last you select. It's really the same thing model makers have done for years with two exceptions. It takes minutes instead of days and it is consistent because you are using mathematical rules. However, these grading features were developed working VERY CLOSELY with model makers from around the world so that the "expert's eye" went into the thought process of the programming.
So Erick, as long as you know the grading rules you are wanting to match into, a good model maker or our software should be able to reproduce them. Unfortunately, you can't reproduce something if you don't know what the target is.
Bill
Yes, I guess we got a little off track there. I'm not an expert in the grading methods of any last makers dating back 100 years or so but I can say this. If the parameters are known (how much the shank reach graded between sizes for example or how much the width of the bottom increased per size, regardless of the girth grade used, etc.), our software can incorporate any of those rules into the grading, just like a model maker could make a series of accomodations models with these grades built in. These models then would be used to turn only a small range of sizes, typically from one full size below the model size to 1/2 size above it. That way the "lathe grade" isn't allowed much opportunity to impose its rules rather than those built into the models. With our software, you create grading "groups" that can have the same or different rules. These groups of sizes act as a "digital model". For example from a one size digitation we can:
* grade the length of the last normally but hold the heel to shank area the same in groups of sizes.
* grade the last normally but group toes into size groups to fit steel toe caps (5-6.5 on 6 toe, 7-8.5 on 8 toe, etc.)
* grade from one width to another while maintaining the exact same last bottom (for fitting molded soles, etc.)
* grade normally but restrict the heel height and toe spring to remain constant throughout the run
and on and on. In fact, we now have what we call "double coordination" whereby we can establish six different axis (length, girth, and height in two different regions) and apply this specific grading to any regions of the last you select. It's really the same thing model makers have done for years with two exceptions. It takes minutes instead of days and it is consistent because you are using mathematical rules. However, these grading features were developed working VERY CLOSELY with model makers from around the world so that the "expert's eye" went into the thought process of the programming.
So Erick, as long as you know the grading rules you are wanting to match into, a good model maker or our software should be able to reproduce them. Unfortunately, you can't reproduce something if you don't know what the target is.
Bill
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erickgeer
Re: Lasts
Bill,
Are those programs you mentioned usable to laypersons? I'm assuming that they are industrial programs and priced accordingly - but I wonder if it's not something to only dream about. I've just downloaded the PDF's. It would be too cool to be able to design a last and simply send the information to a last maker.
Pablo,
When I say vintage lasts, I'm pretty sure they are all well into 1900's, so I'm not sure if those irregularities you mention are quite so pertinant, any way if I get a last copied I at least (think I) know enough to build up or take away from the fit points on a last. I've seen some wierd looking lasts though, that were made recently enough to be plastic.
Here's a question - when did it become common for lasts to be plastic?
I'm really enjoying this conversation.
Erick Geer Wilcox
Are those programs you mentioned usable to laypersons? I'm assuming that they are industrial programs and priced accordingly - but I wonder if it's not something to only dream about. I've just downloaded the PDF's. It would be too cool to be able to design a last and simply send the information to a last maker.
Pablo,
When I say vintage lasts, I'm pretty sure they are all well into 1900's, so I'm not sure if those irregularities you mention are quite so pertinant, any way if I get a last copied I at least (think I) know enough to build up or take away from the fit points on a last. I've seen some wierd looking lasts though, that were made recently enough to be plastic.
Here's a question - when did it become common for lasts to be plastic?
I'm really enjoying this conversation.
Erick Geer Wilcox
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pablo
Re: Lasts
Erick,
Bill's former employer did the trick on making the first plastic lasts - Sterling Last Co. , NY, in 1960.
The company published a story of lasts which covers many details about last history. Vulcan followed a few years later.
Something pertinent on repro-ing vintage lasts -
until about the 1930's(early), scant info exists
about their origins. Presumably, they were derivations of the preceeding models (older vintagers)and that would have been WWI period lasts.And that gets us into the still non-standard
shank, toe spring,etc... era of last houses which numbered into the 30's(?).
One interview summed up the subject clearly - you model makers make the model sooo perfectly but when they get it in the factory those lasts
aren't that close ( to the objective ).. recollection of a model maker repeating what the original owner of Western Last Co., St L., said.
Bill's former employer did the trick on making the first plastic lasts - Sterling Last Co. , NY, in 1960.
The company published a story of lasts which covers many details about last history. Vulcan followed a few years later.
Something pertinent on repro-ing vintage lasts -
until about the 1930's(early), scant info exists
about their origins. Presumably, they were derivations of the preceeding models (older vintagers)and that would have been WWI period lasts.And that gets us into the still non-standard
shank, toe spring,etc... era of last houses which numbered into the 30's(?).
One interview summed up the subject clearly - you model makers make the model sooo perfectly but when they get it in the factory those lasts
aren't that close ( to the objective ).. recollection of a model maker repeating what the original owner of Western Last Co., St L., said.
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btippit
Re: Lasts
Erick,
You are correct in assuming that the programs are industrial and thus, priced accordingly. As Pablo alluded to earlier, a ton of R&D has gone into the development of these and all successful programs. As for layman use, actually we much prefer that. Typically, we will train a new user of the last software for one full week and possibly follow that up a few months later with 3-5 days after the user is more acquainted with the software. However, this is assuming the user has a prior background in last development and fit either as a model maker or in the product development department of a shoe company or even better, as a custom footwear maker. Without this type of background it is very rare that additional training will not be needed, not only on our software but simply on the basics concepts of the job. The same applies to our pattern engineering software as well as the 3D shoe design package. It is always much easier to take someone with years of hands on experience and teach them to use computer tools than to take a computer scientist and try to teach them how to be an artist.
Pablo, about your comments from the Western Last interview...I was always dumbfounded when I saw how much care went into the making of models and yes, even the hand work in the factory such as toe and heel shaving, plating, and all those other skillful jobs....only to have the shipper count the number of lasts on a rack and then pick them up by the handfuls and drop them several feet into a burlap bag (sometimes toe first) to be tossed onto a skid and shipped to the customer. And it's even worse in a shoe factory to see them tossed into metal last bins like someone is competing in a punt, pass, and kick contest!
Bill
You are correct in assuming that the programs are industrial and thus, priced accordingly. As Pablo alluded to earlier, a ton of R&D has gone into the development of these and all successful programs. As for layman use, actually we much prefer that. Typically, we will train a new user of the last software for one full week and possibly follow that up a few months later with 3-5 days after the user is more acquainted with the software. However, this is assuming the user has a prior background in last development and fit either as a model maker or in the product development department of a shoe company or even better, as a custom footwear maker. Without this type of background it is very rare that additional training will not be needed, not only on our software but simply on the basics concepts of the job. The same applies to our pattern engineering software as well as the 3D shoe design package. It is always much easier to take someone with years of hands on experience and teach them to use computer tools than to take a computer scientist and try to teach them how to be an artist.
Pablo, about your comments from the Western Last interview...I was always dumbfounded when I saw how much care went into the making of models and yes, even the hand work in the factory such as toe and heel shaving, plating, and all those other skillful jobs....only to have the shipper count the number of lasts on a rack and then pick them up by the handfuls and drop them several feet into a burlap bag (sometimes toe first) to be tossed onto a skid and shipped to the customer. And it's even worse in a shoe factory to see them tossed into metal last bins like someone is competing in a punt, pass, and kick contest!
Bill
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erickgeer
Re: Lasts
A few years ago I ordered some ladies lasts copied from a small outfit, and I got the box of them from UPS with the sharp toe characters poking out of the corners of the box.
Bill,
Can I talk to you outside of the forum about applications of the last design and grading software?
Erick Geer Wilcox
Bill,
Can I talk to you outside of the forum about applications of the last design and grading software?
Erick Geer Wilcox
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btippit
Re: Lasts
Wilson,
GREAT to have you involved in this! You could not only work up an great master model, you could work circles around the rest of us whether we're doing it manually or with computers. You've always been like the army....getting more done by 9:00am than the rest of us do all day!
Bill
GREAT to have you involved in this! You could not only work up an great master model, you could work circles around the rest of us whether we're doing it manually or with computers. You've always been like the army....getting more done by 9:00am than the rest of us do all day!
Bill
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btippit
Re: Lasts
To all:
I am seriously considering getting back into the custom last game, at least as a side business. Well, of course, it would not be "ME" because I am obligated to devote every waking hour to my current employer and not earn any money elsewhere, even on my own time in a business that does not conflict with my employer's and I would never transgress that agreement... :-)
Rather, "my wife" would have the business and of course I would "ADVISE" her on the orders, making sure the proper style was ordered in the right size, etc. So it would be just like it was before only I would not "really" be involved. (Am I being vague enough?)
Anyone who might be interested can contact us at the following new email address that I have set up specifically for "my wife's" new business.
lastword2004@sbcglobal.net
"My wife" wants to gauge the interest that's out there before "she" jumps into this but those conversations will involve product details and prices. The product details can be discussed in this forum but I don't want to slip and have price discussions that would violate the .ORG status of the forum. I will say that in addition to standard sizes and specific overall length and ball girth measurements that were available from The Last Word, more specific custom measurements and heel height adjustments will be available as well. Unfortunately, it may be difficult (but not necessarily impossible) to order the old TLW styles as is but there will be a digitation service offered that will allow any style you have on hand to be scanned into the system.
"She" looks forward to a rash of inquiries. Estimated launching of the venture would be around June or July of this year.
Bill
I am seriously considering getting back into the custom last game, at least as a side business. Well, of course, it would not be "ME" because I am obligated to devote every waking hour to my current employer and not earn any money elsewhere, even on my own time in a business that does not conflict with my employer's and I would never transgress that agreement... :-)
Rather, "my wife" would have the business and of course I would "ADVISE" her on the orders, making sure the proper style was ordered in the right size, etc. So it would be just like it was before only I would not "really" be involved. (Am I being vague enough?)
Anyone who might be interested can contact us at the following new email address that I have set up specifically for "my wife's" new business.
lastword2004@sbcglobal.net
"My wife" wants to gauge the interest that's out there before "she" jumps into this but those conversations will involve product details and prices. The product details can be discussed in this forum but I don't want to slip and have price discussions that would violate the .ORG status of the forum. I will say that in addition to standard sizes and specific overall length and ball girth measurements that were available from The Last Word, more specific custom measurements and heel height adjustments will be available as well. Unfortunately, it may be difficult (but not necessarily impossible) to order the old TLW styles as is but there will be a digitation service offered that will allow any style you have on hand to be scanned into the system.
"She" looks forward to a rash of inquiries. Estimated launching of the venture would be around June or July of this year.
Bill
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dw
- Seanchaidh
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Re: Lasts
Bill,
I have only one word to describe my reaction...
Hoo-Rah!!!
"Or maybe 'wow'...no...'hoorah' describes it best!"
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com
"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."
I have only one word to describe my reaction...
Hoo-Rah!!!
"Or maybe 'wow'...no...'hoorah' describes it best!"
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
frommer@bootmaker.com
http://www.bootmaker.com
"Little Jack Dandiprat, in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives the shorter he grows."
-
rvallee
Re: Lasts
Bill wrote
"because I am obligated to devote every waking hour to my current employer"
Bill, I noticed in your bio you are from Missouri, would your current employer happen to be Florsheim?
I was quite surprised at the number of emails I received in regards to my old wooden lasts.
Just to clarify, They are piled up in boxes and are not matched up into pairs. The reason I have them is only because I like shoe related things. Now that they are not being used in major shoe production anymore I grabbed them before they totally disappear. More and more I see them being sold as antiques or used to make candle holders, bookends and other craft items.
Anyway, if anyone else is interested in some let me know but it may take awhile until I get them in order.
Take care all, Spring is on the way. I can't wait to set those clocks ahead Sunday!
Rusty
"because I am obligated to devote every waking hour to my current employer"
Bill, I noticed in your bio you are from Missouri, would your current employer happen to be Florsheim?
I was quite surprised at the number of emails I received in regards to my old wooden lasts.
Just to clarify, They are piled up in boxes and are not matched up into pairs. The reason I have them is only because I like shoe related things. Now that they are not being used in major shoe production anymore I grabbed them before they totally disappear. More and more I see them being sold as antiques or used to make candle holders, bookends and other craft items.
Anyway, if anyone else is interested in some let me know but it may take awhile until I get them in order.
Take care all, Spring is on the way. I can't wait to set those clocks ahead Sunday!
Rusty