Lasts

Got any great sources for leather? Tools? Machinery? Looking for sources?
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Re: Lasts

#326 Post by jake »

Hey Larry,

First of all....Thanks for the compliments! It's always nice to hear that you have, in some small manner, helped someone. That's what this Forum is all about.

I agree with your conclusion on modifying, or "fitting-up", the last. It's not my favorite part of making boots either. But hang in there! Like every step of bootmaking, you'll get faster and better with each pair.

I remember when my mentor, I won't mention any names here, observed my first pair of lasts. He said they looked like "tatters"....that's potatoes for those who live up yonder. And they did! But then he proceeded to teach me how to observe and respect the lines of the last and how they correspond to the contours of the foot. Now...not all lasts are the same, so start with a "good" last. With time you will be able to "finese" these contours to make a boot look better also. But that's a whole other subject.

Rule #1....I too keep customers lasts dedicated to that person. You can peel the buildups off and "re-cement" them to the same last if you like. That's what my mentor does. He keeps the buildups in a baggie with their name on the bag. He can then use the last for another person, thus, keeping his last inventory down. Which in turn, keeps your operating costs down. (I know you don't like to hear that Bill) By the way, I've also tried Bondo for buildups, but it's mighty messy and stinky.

Rule #2.....I too make a "fitter's" model before cutting good leather for the final product. Once you have the customer satisfied, unless he/she deviates very much from their present weight, the measurements and patterns will satisfy them for quite some time.

Finally, and please don't take this wrong, don't be timid of showing your work Larry. I promise you, we've ALL been there! If you are gonna wait til it gets darn near perfect.....it may be awhile. I haven't made a perfect pair yet!

Once again, we sure do appreciate your kind words, and look forward to discussing any problems that may arise in the future.
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Re: Lasts

#327 Post by big_larry »

I thought I might give an update on my last, no pun intended, message. Jake, I am in your debt for the posting you made on modifying the last. As luck would have it, on one of my first three projects I ran into a fitting problem. This man has very irregular feet. His ball girth measurement was way larger than the heel proportionallly and his heel was consistant with a 12 D. His first metatorsal bone and big toe are quite large in proportion. The other problem is that one foot is a bit larger than the other.

I have used leather, all purpose, and plastic steel to fit the foot using a 12-D last. This will givew hin about 3/4 inch toe room on the end.

I am anticipating a problem pulling the last because of the full front of the boot. The real challange has been to accomodate the large toe with a last that is designed for a normal sized foot. I want to keep the symetry of the foot so the boot will look stylish and accomodate the toe. I have decided to use a combination of build-up and a tapered slice of Eva on the in-sole that can be removed. I have also peaned the insoles where the big toe resides to create a tiny bit more concave space. I have read a great deal and counseled with everyone that will talk to me and now I find that I am at that point where the "rubber meets the road" so to speak and I have to "do it!'

I might share one other bit of frustration (information) about my start-up challenges. My sewing machine (an old post singer) was operating faster than I could manage it. I put on one of those variable speed motors and now I can slow the speed down to where I can keep up with it. It is obvious that this condition is temporary and the more I use the machine, the more speed I can manage. Sometimes I feel like the mouse that was swimming in the pail of cream, trying to churn it into butter so he can climb out. This boot making is not as easy as it appears.

Thanks again to all you who have so generously shared the information that is so valuable to those of us who are not yet so wise.

Larry Peterson
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Re: Lasts

#328 Post by joe »

Hello Everyone,

I am currentyly collecting data and tools for making my first set of custom made shoes.

Lots of good info on this site. I was directed here for globalfootwaresolutions.com while researching shoe lasts.

Bill i just sent you an inquiry with regard to shoe lasts.

Are there any other sources for shoe lasts on the internet putting ebay aside of course?

Also where do you buy shoe shanks and other supplies from?

Any information you can provide would be greatly appriciated.
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Re: Lasts

#329 Post by dw »

Joe,

Welcome to the Crispin Colloquy! Glad to have you aboard.

Re: lasts. Don't get sucked into buying lasts off Ebay or from third parties unless you know what you want and what you are looking to achieve. At least not until you get some experience under your belt. Stick with an experienced lastmaker, tell him the specifications you want and if that last makes up pretty and comfortable, learn it. Then...and in my opinion, only then...will you be ready to buy lasts willy-nilly.

Just one example of the way novices fall into a trap that can really bite: not all lasts are equal. If you buy a last in model XYZ from the shoemaker down the street and it is sized as a "7A", and then you buy another pair, of a different model off of Ebay, and it is labeled "9C", there is, a small but real chance that they will both be the same length and the same girth measurements. But you, thinking you have a 9C for a customer who says he is a 9C, find out...after the shoes are made and the money spent for lasts, leather and tools...that it doesn't come anywhere near to fitting.

Several things happen at this point...you will almost inevitably feel a great sense of loss and frustration. And the worst part is that you will not know what went wrong: was it your measurements? Should you change the way you take them? Was it the customer who misled you as to his size? Or gained weight? Was it the lasts? And which is the one that is mislabeled? Where do you start to get back on track?

And this kind of scenario can play out in many ways...some of which are much more subtle and hard to understand that the one I just outlined--toe swing, degree in heel, toe profile, bottom radius, etc., etc..

Get a good last for your own size and get some experience under your belt. Eventually you'll be able to recognize lasts that have problems or ones that you might want to collect and have replicated.

As for supplies (shanks among them)...go to a local shoe repair and ask the owner to identify his "finder." You'll find most everything you need...except really good quality upper leathers there.

Hope this helps...and again welcome.

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Re: Lasts

#330 Post by artzend »

DW,

I reckon that you should not be even considering the numbers on lasts. I guess you can as far as putting you in the ball park with size but you can't start to make a pair of shoes for anyone without measuring the last against the foot pattern. This is the only way to make sure they will fit.

You then have to build the last to fit, but at least you know they are big/small enough to be correct.

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#331 Post by dw »

Tim,

I agree, 100%. In fact, one of the most interesting and influential things that was ever said to me was what a lastmaker told me years ago--"you should be able to fit any foot with any last." Which really puts us down to the nitty gritty of looking at the foot...and the last...in terms of shape and measurements rather than size labels or model numbers.

But for someone starting out, it is better, in my opinion, to start with a last that is a known commodity, so to speak, and learn it throughly, than to dabble with lasts that may or may not be functional much less "orthopedically correct."

As I am sure you can attest, there is a lot more to lasts than just measurements.

This is just one way of looking at things however and may reflect my preference for a deliberate and studied process...and a record at every step of the way.Image


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Re: Lasts

#332 Post by artzend »

DW,

I agree that there is more to a last than the measurements but there is also the availability of said lasts.

Most lasts would be ok and if they need to be altered that is not too difficult. As long as the heel height is correct and the last is the right length,then you should be ok to use it. You can't go by size numbers as a lot of second hand lasts come from factories where the sizing is dictated by who tries on the model shoes.

If a last has come from a factory then the chances of it working should be fairly high. I must admit that some of the lasts I bought had been altered so much that they didn't work under any circumstance, but mostly they were all right.

Cost when starting out would be the biggest factor I reckon, and for me, my first range of lasts that I had made was a considerable outlay and required a lot of thought.

Just another approach I guess.

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#333 Post by big_larry »

Joe,
I am a "one year boot maker." I purchased a run of lasts fromThornaple River, a run from another boot maker and a run from a friend. The western lasts with the highest heel height and pointed toes are Jones & Vining. My first two pair when I was just out of boot school, were a little too big. They were Packer or Blucher style and with the help of a liner The fit was just barely ok.

The hard lesson I learned was to totally ignore the boot size and work from an imprint of the foot. I now locate the ball and heel from the pedograph outline. The length of the toes and back of the heel can be fitted with leather and buildup added to the last. I also take very careful measurements and make a plaster cast in the impression foam of each foot to constantly refere to as I prepare the last.

I now make a fitter boot out of upholstry leather and insist that the client wear it around for an hour or two. I discovered that the foot will tolerate a "too snug" boot for a short time. It appears to me that older, "heavy lunch type guys" will often prefere a lower and wider heel and more toe comfort.

Now, I am not yet accomplished enough to be giving any one else much direction, however, I might suggest that you follow D.W.'s counsel and purchase lasts from a professional last maker, and in my opinion there are none better than Bill T.. But when you take an order from someone other than a family member, allow the client to front the money for a new last. If they continue as a regular customer the last is all ready to go.

As time goes by you will find many many sources of lasts and by then you will know just exactly what you want. I wish you well.

Larry Peterson
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Re: Lasts

#334 Post by dw »

Tim,

The whole discussion regarding shoe lasts versus my boot lasts was on my mind when I made the remarks above.

How would someone just starting in the Trade know the difference? You can see it...although, correct me if I'm wrong, my boot lasts are much closer to a shoe last than what you were used to dealing with...but Joe might not be able to see it.

Heck, after three decades of making, while I can see the difference in the lasts you posted photos of, and I can see why your boot last would not be suitable for making shoes, I cannot see why my boot last will not make a very nice shoe although I do see differences in shape between my boot last and your shoe last.

What that tells me is that if I were very green and were looking to buy lasts from sources such as Ebay, I would stand a very good chance of buying lasts that were not suitable.

I think the emphasis on relying on measurements and pedographs and such is well founded and appropriate, but knowing what you're getting is just as important especailly if money is a factor.

Maybe I'm the odd man out here, but in my mind it would be far worse to spend $25 on a last that didn't work than to spend $125 on one that did.

Maybe one thing that would influence the decision is that if you order from someone like BT, you can order one pair at a time...you needn't buy a whole run.

Anyway...that's another way to look at it.

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Re: Lasts

#335 Post by artzend »

DW

If you can get just one last at a time from a manufacturer that would be perfect, but it was always difficult here to do that here. It would be better to buy a pair of lasts that you can see obviously, but with 99% of lasts, if you get the heel height right, and the length is right, then chances are good that it will work.

The only ones I ever had problems with had been ground off on the bottom by someone who thought you had to do that to make joggers.

If you can get one-off lasts for $125 then that is probably the way to go.

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#336 Post by shoestring »

Speaking of green at last buying.My first one I ordered was by size & width got just that.I found out real quick there was a need to measure.But there was a valuable lesson learned in that mistake of not knowing and I am continuing to learn.Sometimes going through the school of hard knocks will set the message in better.And thanks to the group my phraseology in the discussion of shoes is not so bleak any more although the room for improvement is still great.But the correct last is the way to go.

Ed
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Re: Lasts

#337 Post by joe »

Guys, thanks for all the great responses. I am more than willing to invest in a set of lasts, I think that is is well worth it. Of course I plan on using myself as a guinea pig to make my first set of shoes. Do you guys use devices like the brannock for taking measurements. I have Laslo Vasses book "handmade shoes for men" which does extensivly detail the proceedure for taking measurements and outlines of the foot for last making. It seems like the brannock measuemnet coupled with a few other key measurements would be enough to get me started? As far as last materials go, is wood always prefered over plastic? Seems like the tradional choice anyway. Appriciate all the good information, thanks.
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Re: Lasts

#338 Post by romango »

I recently purchased a set of lasts from http://www.walrusshoe.com/lasts_home.htm and am very pleased with them. I suggest, however, that you not take such a step before you are clear what you want. Walrus will sell you single lasts for ~$20/ea. Buy a few and see what works for you.
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Re: Lasts

#339 Post by artzend »

Joe,

If you are intending to use a Brannock tool, you need to find out if you take the measurement with weight on or weight off. I am pretty sure you do it with weight off and a size stick is used with weight on the foot.

I don't use a brannock or a size stick, as I don't think they have much relevence. You are better to draw round the foot as on page 14 of Vlass and then holding the pencil at about 60 degrees, draw another line inside the first, marking the outline of where the foot touches the ground. Only mark from beside the little toe to beside the big toe, there is no point marking across the front of the foot.

Mark either side of your tape on both sides of the foot when you take your measurements and write the measurement beside the tape mark so you don't get confused.

That should get you started.

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#340 Post by btippit »

To all:

Sorry I haven't been able to jump in before now. I had the sad misfortune to lose a second brother in the past three years last week and for the past week or two have been consumed with that situation. However, life and work goes on and I will use this thread as a happy distraction from the events of recent days.

First of all, anyone who has read my recent articles in World Footwear knows my feeling on shoe/last sizes. I feel the current sizing systems have been watered down to the point that these numbers are pulled out of the air (or somewhere less accessible) more than the result of consistent and numerically accurate reasoning. That said, Tim's comment that the stamped size will put you "in the ballpark" is an accurate statement. That 'ball park'
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Re: Lasts

#341 Post by artzend »

Bill,

That was a really interesting post. It explains a lot. I didn't know that the Brannock had changed the way it was supposed to be used. That would make a big difference. Not that I would ever go near one either.

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#342 Post by jesselee »

Tim

My question to yu is HOW do I pry your book out of my apprentices hands! great stuff old son. I will introduce him to the forum. I started teaching him in about 81. Too busy here with a move and then to MT so will address video and my book questions when time permits..
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Re: Lasts

#343 Post by artzend »

Jesse Lee,

That is music to my ears. I know there is a lot of stuff there and if he is enjoying it he must be getting something out of it. Do I have to send you a copy for yourself?

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#344 Post by btippit »

Tim,

Yeah, I was pretty embarrassed last year when I was showing a C-Ped at a Pedorthic shoe store I was doing some work at how I was taught to use the Brannock. To make a long story short, after I placed her foot in the Brannock she stood up....I said "why"...she said "that's how it's done"....I told her it made all the sense in the world but I had 6 pages of instructions and a 2 page letter from the inventor of the device, Charles Brannock, saying NEVER stand, only sit with the calf at a right angle to the floor or preferably at a right angle to the slanted part of the fitting stool.

That's when I did some digging and found out Brannock had changed the rules 10 years earlier (my letter from C.B. was dated 1983). They told me they never bothered to publicize the change because shoe fitters were getting good results with both methods. Well, Duh??? Measure the foot and go to the back room and bring out that size and one on either side and you're probably going to get one to "fit"....by retail's definition of the word anyway.

It should also be noted that while I consider the sliding width gauge on the Brannock totally useless, I strongly recommend as much OR MORE attention be given to the arch/shank length as to the overall heel to toe length. Also, everyone should be sure they have the correct Brannock. The purple one is for women and the black one is for men. At one time they made what they called an "orthopedic women's" device and it was also black. No one there can remember why it was made but it was basically just another men's device.

And if you don't already own them, don't go out and purchase both. The women's is exactly one size off from the men's (size 8 men's is a size 9 women's, etc.). So buy a men's and use it for both if you feel you have to use it at all.

Bill “The Last Man Standingâ€
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Re: Lasts

#345 Post by artzend »

Bill

What a weird idea that you don't tell anyone that you have changed the way to use a tool.

I too agree that the heel to ball measurement is most important. Toe length is looked at later, as it should be.

Tim
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Re: Lasts

#346 Post by bill_harris »

This is a pair of split blocks that I am going to use to make a pair of lasts for myself. The end result is a joint like a slip last and the heel part pulls out of the shoe or boot.

I use a #10 wood screw through the heel and I put a self tapping Heli-Coil insert (P/N 4885-3AQ X 5/8) that is designed for wood and wood screws in the forepart.

There is a second pair of holes and inserts in the back of the forepart block that can be used to pull it out of the finished boot.

The wood is mahogany which I buy from a place that sells supplies to people who make patterns for foundrys. The little key is oak.

Bill Harris
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Re: Lasts

#347 Post by dearbone »

DW
I am looking to buy some boot lasts and I was looking at Bill Tippit, What do you think?
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Re: Lasts

#348 Post by dw »

Nasser,

Bill is a member of this forum and has provided a lot of valuable information to folks here. In my opinion he is one of the best--he listens and is open to the concerns of the shoe and bootmaking community...open to the concerns of the individual maker, for that matter. He is intimately involved with digital prototyping and will soon offer a way to order lasts, one pair at a time, that will ensure that the maker gets a last that meets his or her specifications.

That said, Global Footwear Services, is a relatively small outfit and one needs to order somewhat in advance of when the last is actually wanted.


Bottom line, he is one of the most helpful and honest people I've dealt with...I wouldn't order from anyone else as long a Bill could meet my needs.

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Re: Lasts

#349 Post by dearbone »

DW
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question honestly. Yes I looked at Bill Tippit site, It is very very imperssive what he is involve in, Thank God we have him in our time, Finally there is some hope for the boot & shoe makers and to you sir Bill Tippit my sincere condolences regarding the lost of your brothers.
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Re: Lasts

#350 Post by big_larry »

Nasser,

I have been making boots for just one year and have learned some costly lessons. One of the best decissions I made during this past year was to be the best measurer I can be and to order the last from Bill Tippits. I still make a fitter boot and make whatever adjustments necessary. I called Bill on October 18 and ordered a pair of women's lasts. He took time to answear my questions and give me valuable counsel. I like this man and I like doing business with him.

I have a lot of lasts that work just fine most of the time, but when it comes to women's fitting and difficult to fit anatomy, Bill is my number one last man.

I hope you have a good experience and I wish you well.

Larry Peterson
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