Through the Mists of Time...

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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#51 Post by marc »

Al,
In that sense, "relative" yes, but "equal", no.

Un hunh. Whatever you say... (I told you I'm not going to fight about this any more Image )

Marc
pablo

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#52 Post by pablo »

Al,
"The Wellington has been almost completely abandoned in England in consequence of the ankle boot..."
quote from an 1868 "Leather Trader Circular Review" in June Swann, Shoes ( 1982) p.44.

" .. as for the " rich history " , I hope to build a case for the paucity of invention in the basic elements of the shoes/boots on English shores"
thats the intent, 29 Oct 2003 above.Sorry if that has stung your sensibilities( Al & Mr. Carlson). You are reading more about my intent than is there.
I'm just trying to flesh-out the bare bones &
where the sources lead.
pablo
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#53 Post by das »

Marc,

Who wants to "fight" over little letters typed on a computer monitor anyway? Not I Image
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#54 Post by marc »

Pablo,
...Sorry if that has stung your sensibilities( Al & Mr. Carlson)

You haven't stung my anything Image since, as I tried to make clear, I really was trying to make a friendly suggestion - and I'm not really invested in any one tradition. I do have to ask though - if you aren't attacking the English tradition, then why are you trying to "build a case for the paucity of invention in the basic elements..." This would seam to imply that you are trying to prove that the English have really contributed nothing of relavance to the history of shoe or bootmaking (an interesting assertion and one I'd like to hear more about).

Marc
pablo

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#55 Post by pablo »

Mr. Carlson,
Thank you for asking.

I've read the early literature from Rees on, and
its interesting, to me, that they say so little
about how the individual features( heel,pegged shank...)got into their boots/shoes. They possibly didn't know therefore why mention them in the writings.. however Sparkes invented the elastic spring and heartily pushed it to fame. And good for him. But, aren't those other items that are singularly built into the boot/shoe even more significant? After all the are in every or many b/s. Perhaps the reason lies in the obvious which is that none of what I've inquired about is of English origin so they shrugged and touted what they could claim instead. That's my view and I'm trying to test it.
If it is true then that the English did not invent them, as stated, proper credit should be given. As implied before, I think the English have used the same "building blocks" as any stylist ( us included ) and happened to come up with another model. And that's great. But, they failed to give clear historic dues to "others" in their literature.
Don't you insist on referencing sources in your
essays?
I was reminded, while forming this opinion, of the dictionaries and where the English words came from.The search I'm on is very similar.
I don't see the attack and it is not intended to be.
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#56 Post by gcunning »

Al
Thanks. I haven’t read this since last night. My eyes are very tired now. I feel like I just read a thesis- whew!Image
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#57 Post by das »

Pablo,

First, it would help me if you wrote here in the same "voice" you speak in--this convoluted, super-formality, and "Mr. Saguto" stuff has me quite confused about your tone. For my part, at least, this is why I'm not sure whether you're being serious, or tongue-in-cheek--attacking, or joshing. We've spoken on the phone so many times, at length, and you sounded "normal" then. Why all of a sudden this starch-collar business?

===============
"The Wellington has been almost completely abandoned in England in consequence of the ankle boot..."
quote from an 1868 "Leather Trader Circular Review" in June Swann, Shoes ( 1982) p.44.
================

Okay, June Swann didn't say it, this 'Circular Review' did. Do you want the long answer? If so give me until tomorrow to go dig through the files and a few books. If you'll be satisfied with the short answer [please say yes] then:

Yes, the wearing of wellingtons in the UK declined as low shoes increased in popularity in the later 19th c., however, the wellington [whole-cut and dress-cut]was hardly "almost completely abandoned". It formed part of military dress--and still does. It also is the focus of detailed chapters in *every* English shoemaking book from the 19th c. through Korn in the 1950s. Why waste paper and ink instructing people how to make an "abandoned" boot? At one point, let's say, "most men in England wore wellington boots", then at a later date "most men in England went to lower shoes and ankle boots", which I'd say was the case. But the wellington has hardly been "abandoned" there, and sure as heck lives on here in your cowboy boots Image

============
"I hope to build a case for the paucity of invention in the basic elements of the shoes/boots on English shores"
=============

Okay, if that's your goal, build a case point by point to support it, and then see if it holds water; but I should say up front, you can't prove a negative.

Furthermore, I'll bite: why? Why would you want to take the Brits down a peg on their bootmaking? You have some anti-British ax to grind with them? The questions seem to me not to be who invented what, or who claimed credit for pegs and shanks, but who borrowed what from whom, when, and how in this case, perhaps, British commerce, colonization and imprialism brought together and re-distributed the various elements?
pablo

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#58 Post by pablo »

Al,
Don't put yourself out on this mattter. Your response is ample. Thanks by the way.

As stated above( twice I think ) there is a US source in 1812 for the two-piece boot making it
and it's derivatives co-developments with the two-piece boot across the pond.

Also, as you stated above, the Euros brought their
models and practiced their two-piece version here too. So, it's not necessarily only one version of that boot which became established here.

So, what can that senario suggest?

1. Most claim the English version is the only one
that spawned the cow boy boot. I ask - is that correct?

2. Can it be that pockets of independet makers developed what has become a regional cow boy boot without the incursion of the English version into their methods? I like that idea a lot.

Regarding the " paucity" matter, I'll stand on my response to Mr. Carlson.

Sorry, if the title is offensive but that was changed. I try to be polite on the internet and
not too cozy or friendly just in case .

pablo
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#59 Post by marc »

Pablo,
This whole thing of citing your sources is a fairly recent development, and is certainly not that common among non-academics even today. For example, while I haven't read Gaursault's Art du cordonnier (French, 1767), but I suspect that the people here who have read him can tell me if my hypothesis is wrong that he didn't cite too many sources either. I'm still not sure what, if any, early shoemaking manuals exist in other languages, since I haven't actually run across any. But if they exist, I doubt THEY give a lot of credit to 'foreign' makers.

Marc
pablo

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#60 Post by pablo »

Mr. Carlson,
Right you are. I heard that( citing) elucidated in civil war presentations at Gettysburg couple of years back.

There's the little matter of that Revolution in France which I'm told destroyed much and broke-up the guilds across the board to say nothing of those who might have been killed during the purges.And that kind of thing was wide spread across Europe in this period of interest.So I'm
well aware of the pitfalls you point out.
To cite the impact of the scare in those days I've read of lexicographers barely escaping the sword and rushing back some time later to gather up their folios in order to continue the work. Bad days those.

Anyway, I have my plans laid and I'll try to construct the way regional cow boy boots really developed.

Thank you for the input.

pablo
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#61 Post by das »

Marc,

Here's the run-down:

Interestingly Garsault [1767] FR, only credits one M. Soude, master bootmaker, whose career went on another decade or two in Paris with being "helpful", but he only made men's boots, so no clue as to who helped him on women's shoes, and the other areas discussed. The other 18th c. ones are:: Coetlogon, [1745], credits J. Martin of Taunton, UK; Roland de la Platiere [1788], CH, credits "my shoemaker" with insights--he sent him his ms. and had him vet it for him.. Hartwig [1775] GR, mentions leading artisans of Berlin, but no names; Schreber [1769] GR; Griselini [1768] IT; Panckoucke [actually Robinet, 1776] FR, and Bertrand[1775] CH/OS, mention no helpers, native to their countries, or foreigners except vague allusions.

Also, O'Sullivan [1830] UK, mentioned above, ripped-off and abridged Rees [1813] UK--as though nobody'd notice, but claimed to be "the first" in English--nevermind Martin of Taunton [1745]. I think the upshot is, yes, modern standards of citing sources were unknown to these guys.
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#62 Post by das »

Pablo,

Well thank you, I think, for toning it down a bit anyway.

==========
"not too cozy or friendly just in case "
==========

Wha???? Contact me privately like the old days if you're in doubt--it's still me.

Glad the short answer sufficed.

Not sure what your 1812 source is for US two-piece boots. Care to share that one? There are refs. to "Hussar" boots back to the 1760s in VA, but the Brits made these with back-seams before they mastered crimping as Rees says, etc., so be careful. First side-seamed US examples I've handled are c.1815-20 [Quincy, MA concealment].

==========
1. Most claim the English version is the only one that spawned the cow boy boot. I ask - is that correct?
==========

If you're asking for input [?], my guess is if cowboy boots [1870-1910] don't get spawned from the Anglo-American wellington tradition [most likely in my book], then maybe from the German-speakers and central Europeans who settled Texas, and made the first boots there????

==========
2. Can it be that pockets of independent makers developed what has become a regional cow boy boot without the incursion of the English version into their methods? I like that idea a lot.
===========

Whatever floats yer boat. I wouldn't think that the Texas bootmakers were as influenced directly by British-made boots, as much as they were awash in American boots, which included the same boot. As far as spontaneous invention of a side-seamed boot in some sort of vacuum, I think the odds are pretty low--they borrowed it from somebody. Philadelphia, among other centers, was exporting side-seamed boots with scalloped top-lines out west mighty early. And then there are all those Civil War surplus boots, etc.
shoestring

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#63 Post by shoestring »

With time and coffee on my hands this morning I searched yahoo and found an interesting site.I typed in "1812 shoes" then by luck and chance I strolled down and hit number 5 which presented some nice information on shoe history.Thought I would pass it on.
mephit

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#64 Post by mephit »

I hope I'm posting this in a proper location, please excuse me if I'm incorrect. I'm a recreational medievalist (SCA and the like) trying to make myself some mid- to late-15th century pointed toe turn-shoes. I found this fine group via Marc Carlson's excellent "Footwear of the Middle Ages" site, which is also where I found the information I needed to get started making my shoes. I've done a fair amount of leather-working and wood-working over the years, so making the lasts and uppers wasn't too hard with Mr. Carlson's site for help. OK, my stitching is pretty sloppy. I definitely need practice. Heh.

I have a question or two about some details on shoes of this period before I go much further, though. I've seen references on Mr. Carlson's site and elsewhere about corked soles appearing about this time in Venice and spreading outward. The cork platform referred to; what thickness were these? Are we talking a Chopine type of platform or a thin sheet of cork? I'm thinking of putting in 1/8 or 1/4 inch of cork between an insole and outsole. Would this be even vaguely "period" or is it just cheating? Not that I mind cheating. Just want to know what to tell people if they ask.

Also, what is the method one would use to attach the welt to the outsole around the cork? It looks like you would sew the welt flat against the edge of the outsole, correct? How does one do this? Is the stitch passed completely through the sole edge to edge (ouch) or is it a blind stitch looping in and out of the same edge? Where would I find an awl with a sharp enough curve to do a blind stitch like that? Or for that matter, a needle? I guess I'd really have to use a bristle of some kind. Any pointers on where I can get them in small quantities? Real or synthetic doesn't really matter to me. I just want it to work.

Final question before I start sounding too demanding. Can anyone point me in the right direction for finding the necessary ingredients for coade in small quantities? I'm not really planning on becoming a professional cordwainer in the near future. I just want to make some shoes for myself. I'd prefer not to have to buy pounds/gallons of the stuff when all I need are a few ounces. Alternatively, does anyone actually sell coade or a usable alternative?

Thanks in advance for any help you fine ladies and gentleman may provide me.
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#65 Post by marc »

Michael,
I'm pretty sure this is still an acceptable topic Image

First, your cork question. Part of the question of construction is going to be just how pointed you want the pikes of the shoes to be, since the more pointy the toe, the less of a welt you are going to have to work with.

However, with mid to late 15th century pointy toed shoes, I'd have to say that the cork inner sole would be, um, an interesting combination of atyle details not generally found together at that point in history Image

Finding a sharp awl isn't that tricky. I know that Osborn makes a long pointed straight awl blade that isn't that expensive. I'm sure there are other suggestions as well.

The bristle question is an interesting one, and comes up fairly regularly. One source that's been suggested on various lists has been to contact
CLEVELAND LEATHER ["2627 Lorain Avenue/Cleveland, OH 44113/Please direct Boar Bristle inquiries to Herb" to quote a nice young lady who signs herself as Yseult]. There are also other options, not the least of which are fishing line, steel bristles, and even very thin wire folded over and twisted. My belief is that you can use almost anything that is very thin, stiffer than the thread, but more flexible than a needle.

My suggestion for the code is what I tell most of my classes = especially when you are just starting, use beeswax and resin (which can be purchased easily at any music supply store in the quantities you need [you want the stuff that violinists use], although prices appear to vary by region and what only costs me a couple of bucks here, can cost as much as $10 a brick elsewhere.

When you finally decide that Medieval Shoemaking is where it's at and you want to do it right all the time, then you can join the rest of us on the perpetual quest for sources of pitch Image

My other major suggestion would be to practice that round closing [aka the "edge-flesh stitch"] regularly. Even when you aren't working on a project, sew scraps of leather together. There are certain aspects to it, like learning to feel the leather, how deep a bite you can take with your awl, how tight you can pull the stitches, and so on, that can only come with practice.

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask. If I can't answer it, certainly someone else around here can,

Marc
mephit

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#66 Post by mephit »

First, your cork question. Part of the question of construction is going to be just how pointed you want the pikes of the shoes to be, since the more pointy the toe, the less of a welt you are going to have to work with.


Not very. I think, strictly speaking the pikes of my shoes are shorter than 15th cent. fashion would have dictated, being only about 10 - 15% the length of my foot. I wanted these to be at least somewhat practical for walking about at events and such, so I didn't feel like doing the truly ridiculous long-toe look. I'm' also quite duck-footed (narrow heel, very low arches, wide, squat ball with short toes and very little taper), so creating shoes with a fine point would have required truly idiotic pike length.
However, with mid to late 15th century pointy toed shoes, I'd have to say that the cork inner sole would be, um, an interesting combination of atyle details not generally found together at that point in history


I thought some of the poulaine/crakow style shoes I'd seen before had a fairly thick sole which could have had several layers of leather or cork. Perhaps I'm getting confused with pattens designed for use with said poulaines. Well, I'm mostly making them to make the shoes a little softer since I'm a wuss and like comfortable shoes. If it's not quite right for the period (and I was kind of expecting it wouldn't be), so be it. On the off chance anyone notices I'll just tell them I cheat.
Finding a sharp awl isn't that tricky. I know that Osborn makes a long pointed straight awl blade that isn't that expensive. I'm sure there are other suggestions as well.


Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word "sharp". I was meaning one with a very tight curve, so that the stitch could be passed into and then back out the same edge close enough to produce a useful stitch yet deep enough to get a solid grip on the leather.

This still leaves the question of how one sews the welt/rand to the outsole on corked-sole shoes. I expect it has to be some type of stitch which keeps the thread from showing (and therefore wearing) on the bottom. This leads me to think the thread is passed all the way through the sole from one edge to it's opposite or that some form of edge stitch is used.
The bristle question is an interesting one, and comes up fairly regularly. One source that's been suggested on various lists has been to contact CLEVELAND LEATHER. There are also other options, not the least of which are fishing line, steel bristles, and even very thin wire folded over and twisted. My belief is that you can use almost anything that is very thin, stiffer than the thread, but more flexible than a needle.


Hmm... when using wire-based bristles, wouldn't you have a problem with the wire wanting to poke straight into the leather rather than passing through the (usually) curved hole pierced by the awl? I suppose its hardly difficult to pre-curve your wire, though.
My suggestion for the code is what I tell most of my classes = especially when you are just starting, use beeswax and resin (which can be purchased easily at any music supply store in the quantities you need [you want the stuff that violinists use], although prices appear to vary by region and what only costs me a couple of bucks here, can cost as much as $10 a brick elsewhere.


So you can use powdered rosin? I was wondering. Everything I'd seen made me think you needed plain gum rosin. Incidentally, I've found that gum rosin can be found at places which sell traditional soap-making supplies.

I thought part of the point of coade was that it acted, not as a lubricant, but as a sealant. Doesn't using beeswax negate much of this?
When you finally decide that Medieval Shoemaking is where it's at and you want to do it right all the time, then you can join the rest of us on the perpetual quest for sources of pitch


So it isn't just me! Good. I was beginning to think I'd lost my edge! I can usually find damned near anything inside of 48 hours.
My other major suggestion would be to practice that round closing [aka the "edge-flesh stitch"] regularly. Even when you aren't working on a project, sew scraps of leather together. There are certain aspects to it, like learning to feel the leather, how deep a bite you can take with your awl, how tight you can pull the stitches, and so on, that can only come with practice.


Indeed! "Cabbie! How do you get to Carnegie Hall?" "Practice, practice, practice!" I made myself a full-size mock-up on one of the lasts out of cheap (and really hideous) thin suede to make sure my pattern ideas would work and that the last would produce a shoe which would fit me. Trying to do an edge-flesh seam on cheap suede is an interesting proposition, I found. As to how tight the stitches can be pulled, when the thread starts cutting into my fingers, it's tight enough! What's a bandaid or two, after all? Heh. It helps that I've done a fair amount of leather-working (for boy scouts, SCA, Revolutionary war reenacting and other things) ever since I was a child. I've even made shoes and boots before, just never in these styles or using these techniques. Mocs and the like, mostly.

Oh, yeah! One other question. What do you do about the holes left in the leather by the tacks once you remove the shoe from the last? Do you just leave them? Do you soak the shoe to swell them shut? Fill them with coade?

Thanks and apologies for the length of this message!
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#67 Post by marc »

Not very. I think, strictly speaking the pikes of my shoes are shorter than 15th cent. fashion would have dictated, being only about 10 - 15% the length of my foot. I wanted these to be at least somewhat practical for walking about at events and such, so I didn't feel like doing the truly ridiculous long-toe look. I'm' also quite duck-footed (narrow heel, very low arches, wide, squat ball with short toes and very little taper), so creating shoes with a fine point would have required truly idiotic pike length.


That's a fairly typical length actually. You should be fine then.
I thought some of the poulaine/crakow style shoes I'd seen before had a fairly thick sole which could have had several layers of leather or cork. Perhaps I'm getting confused with pattens designed for use with said poulaines. Well, I'm mostly making them to make the shoes a little softer since I'm a wuss and like comfortable shoes. If it's not quite right for the period (and I was kind of expecting it wouldn't be), so be it. On the off chance anyone notices I'll just tell them I cheat.


There are examples of what are called "winter shoes" that have a thicker sole of cork, but these are very rare. So they wouldn't be wrong Image
Sorry, I shouldn't have used the word "sharp". I was meaning one with a very tight curve, so that the stitch could be passed into and then back out the same edge close enough to produce a useful stitch yet deep enough to get a solid grip on the leather.


I generally bend the leather rather than use a curved awl. This works better with a straight awl and damp leather.
This still leaves the question of how one sews the welt/rand to the outsole on corked-sole shoes. I expect it has to be some type of stitch which keeps the thread from showing (and therefore wearing) on the bottom. This leads me to think the thread is passed all the way through the sole from one edge to it's opposite or that some form of edge stitch is used.


Again, I bend the leather.
Hmm... when using wire-based bristles, wouldn't you have a problem with the wire wanting to poke straight into the leather rather than passing through the (usually) curved hole pierced by the awl? I suppose its hardly difficult to pre-curve your wire, though.


Practice. And since bending the leather makes a straight hole, you can slide the "bristle" through straight, and then tighten the stitches as you go.
So you can use powdered rosin? I was wondering. Everything I'd seen made me think you needed plain gum rosin. Incidentally, I've found that gum rosin can be found at places which sell traditional soap-making supplies.


Interesting. I've never used the powdered, but it might melt better than solid. I'll keep the soap-making supplies in mind though.
I thought part of the point of coade was that it acted, not as a lubricant, but as a sealant. Doesn't using beeswax negate much of this?


Yes and no. It softens the resin enough to actually use it, while the resin remains sticky enough to lock the threads.
Trying to do an edge-flesh seam on cheap suede is an interesting proposition, I found. As to how tight the stitches can be pulled, when the thread starts cutting into my fingers, it's tight enough! What's a bandaid or two, after all? Heh. It helps that I've done a fair amount of leather-working (for boy scouts, SCA, Revolutionary war reenacting and other things) ever since I was a child. I've even made shoes and boots before, just never in these styles or using these techniques. Mocs and the like, mostly.


Cheap suede bad Image Try it with leather with the grain still intact -- it's much easier.
Oh, yeah! One other question. What do you do about the holes left in the leather by the tacks once you remove the shoe from the last? Do you just leave them? Do you soak the shoe to swell them shut? Fill them with coade?


The holes will generally close up fairly quickly on their own, as you wear them. Not completely, but so that you won't notice them. If you relast the shoes after you turn them, before you put on the outer sole, you can wet the soles and burnish them with a stick and this will also help close the holes.
Thanks and apologies for the length of this message!


Not a problem.

Marc
mephit

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#68 Post by mephit »

That's a fairly typical length actually. You should be fine then. There are examples of what are called "winter shoes" that have a thicker sole of cork, but these are very rare. So they wouldn't be wrong.

Any chance you can point me towards any illustrations or photos of surviving examples? Why are they called winter shoes?
I generally bend the leather rather than use a curved awl. This works better with a straight awl and damp leather.

How do you bend the edge out with something as stiff as sole leather? Bending flesh out or grain out is relatively easy with most any leather, but edge?

Perhaps we are talking cross purposes. It can be so hard to describe what one means in something as restrictive as vanilla ASCII.

ASCII....

ASCII art! Please bear with my poor attempts at text sketching. Unfortunately, the message board system ignores multiple spaces even when set to fixed width, so I had to use filler characters. I hope these aren't even more confusing than the text has been!

Through the sole from edge to edge, stitching the welt/rand flat to the edge of the outsole, viewed in cross-section. This does not require bending the leather, but does require a very long, very sharp awl.
SHOE sssssssssssssss|
====================
CORK ccccccccccccccc|
cccccccccccccccccccc|
====================|
OUTSOLE oooooooooooo|
--------------------|- <-- Stitch
====================


In through the edge and out the same edge. This would require bending the edge outward or using a very tightly curved awl.
SHOE sssssssssssssss|
====================
CORK ccccccccccccccc|
cccccccccccccccccccc|
====================|
OUTSOLE oooooooooooo|
oooooooooooooooooo -|- <-- Stitch
====================


Or as a third option, stitched to the top of the outsole (I'm assuming this would be the flesh side). This would make the outsole larger than the cork or the insole, producing a flange. This would also require bending or a curved awl, but much easier to produce than the previous.
SHOE sssssssssssssss|
====================
CORK ccccccccccccccc|| Stitch
cccccccccccccccccccc|V
====================\|=
OUTSOLEcccccccccccccc c|
ooccccccccccccccccccccc|
=======================
Interesting. I've never used the powdered, but it might melt better than solid. I'll keep the soap-making supplies in mind though.

Shows what I know about classical music instruments. I thought bow rosin was powdered! I've now picked up a couple of blocks from a local music store. Does it matter if its dark or light rosin? The dark seems to be what is preferred by violinists and therefore more expensive.
Cheap suede bad. Try it with leather with the grain still intact -- it's much easier.

Indeed it is! Took much less time to put together the first real upper and insole than it did the suede mockup.
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#69 Post by marc »

Any chance you can point me towards any illustrations or photos of surviving examples? Why are they called winter shoes?


The only ones that I've seen pictures of are in Goubitz, Olaf, Stepping through time, Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric Times until 1800. Zwolle: Stichting Promotie Archeologie, 2001.

I assume they are called "winter shoes" because the thickened soles might be warmer in the winter.
How do you bend the edge out with something as stiff as sole leather? Bending flesh out or grain out is relatively easy with most any leather, but edge?


I soak them before trying to attach them. I'm afraid that I don't have any photos at this time, or I'd upload them
Does it matter if its dark or light rosin? The dark seems to be what is preferred by violinists and therefore more expensive.


I personally think the lighter colored is stickier.
Indeed it is! Took much less time to put together the first real upper and insole than it did the suede mockup.


Cool Image

Marc
mephit

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#70 Post by mephit »

The only ones that I've seen pictures of are in Goubitz, Olaf, Stepping through time, Archaeological Footwear from Prehistoric Times until 1800. Zwolle: Stichting Promotie Archeologie, 2001.

Which my local library system does not have. Nor does any local college or university library list it as part of their collection. Good thing I found an online dealer who lists it as still in stock, considering it's out of print. Now I just need to cough up the seventy bucks it'll cost me. (hack! choke! moan!) Guess that'll wait a few weeks. Heh.
I assume they are called "winter shoes" because the thickened soles might be warmer in the winter.

Perhaps also the thicker sole is somewhat dryer? I can't imagine that a medieval turnshoe with a single layer sole withstands muddy ground very well. I know my dance moccasins never did. I expect two layers of leather with cork between are much more waterproof.
I personally think the lighter colored is stickier.

Cool! I guess that means being cheap might have paid off for me. The prettiest light amber rosin at the music supply store was also the cheapest.

Question. Is pine pitch the same as pine tar? If so, then you can probably get it in relatively small quantities from equestrian supply companies. Pine tar is used to pack horses' hooves to add strength, maintain flexibility and cut down on microbial infection. I found an online Amish (!) store selling quarts of pine tar for 10$ plus shipping/tax. I can post the link if anyone is interested.
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#71 Post by marc »

Far be it from me to contradict your ILL people Image, but yes, in fact, it is available for ILL. Go to your ILL staff and give them that information and OCLC number 49379842 (they should know what that means). There are currently 16 holding libraries listed, of which 13 are in the US.

As for dry, I maintain you can't make medieval shoes water -proof- without sealing them completely (which keeps the leather from breathing, and isn't a medieval thing anyway). At best you can make them water -reluctant- with a reasonable oiling. But anyone who claims that anything will keep the water out of them, has never really worn medieval shoes.

As for pine pitch=pine tar, I would say yes, except that the equine pine tar I have gotten has been this runnie liquid, rather than than hard resin-like stuff. I -think- (and let me stress this is a guess) that if you boil the runny stuff out in water and render it, you might be able to get the worst runniness out of it, and get at least some pitch - but since I have no idea what they put in there, I can't say.

Marc
dai

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#72 Post by dai »

Reduce veterinary stockholm tar by about one third of its substance by heating. The volatiles given off are foul and inflammable so best to do it outside perhaps. Check progress by letting a drop of the heated tar fall into cold water, then check the drop to see if it has hardened. The desired result is a solid ball of pitch. I tried this last week and mixed the residue with its weight in common resin, then remelted it, poured the mix into cold water, folded in the sides of the warm blob as it cooled, then when cool enough drew it out like toffee. Add oils to soften if needed.

Extensive detail of destructive distillation of wood tars is provided on an Indian library digital archive at http://www.dli.gov.in/home.html Can't remember the title, but type in leather and pitch or whatever else comes to mind at the search function and lots of stuff worth looking at appears including boot dressings.

Amateur telescope mirror grinders use burgundy pitch in their antics.
mephit

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#73 Post by mephit »

Far be it from me to contradict your ILL people , but yes, in fact, it is available for ILL. Go to your ILL staff and give them that information and OCLC number 49379842 (they should know what that means). There are currently 16 holding libraries listed, of which 13 are in the US.


I'm quite certain I could get it on Inter-Library Loan. I was meaning that I couldn't find it in the local collections. I'm just not sure I want to got to all the trouble of doing an ILL. I'm too impatient! Heh. Besides, I enjoy costuming and re-enactment, so it may well be worth it to me to pick up a copy of this and "Shoes and Pattens" to go along with my costuming histories, mask-making books, prop-making books, makeup treatises, and so on.
As for dry, I maintain you can't make medieval shoes water -proof- without sealing them completely (which keeps the leather from breathing, and isn't a medieval thing anyway). At best you can make them water -reluctant- with a reasonable oiling. But anyone who claims that anything will keep the water out of them, has never really worn medieval shoes.


Oh, I understand perfectly. I've spent a goodly amount of time in the outdoors in various weathers in hand-made moccasins and such. Any improvement in water resistance over the norm is highly appreciated and I expect was then as well. Certainly, a thicker sole helps immensely. I have a pair of moccasin boots I made years ago with goodyear boot tread soles on them. Between the thick rubber soles and the heavy oiling/waxing (beeswax and neetsfoot oil mixture), they manage to stay pretty dry in anything but heavy downpour. They're hardly waterproof, but they're decently water resistant.

On the subject of coade, I've seen reference to using "fine oil" to add softness to the mixture if it's too hard. What kind of oil? Lamp oil? Olive oil? Wesson? Petroleum distilate?
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Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#74 Post by marc »

I believe that "fine" in this context means pure, without flaw - some sort of light oil, like olive oil, but I might be mistaken on that.

A major problem with making shoes perfectly waterproof, of course, is that in keeping the water out, you are also keeping water in, which leads to all sorts of nasty horticulture... So really, I'm more concerned with how well they will dry back out, than that they will stay dry in the first place.

If you can get the books, great. If not - at least there are options.

Marc
erickgeer

Re: Through the Mists of Time...

#75 Post by erickgeer »

I couldn't think of a better place to post this.
I was poking around the web, looking for texts on shoemaking, and found a link to Maybole History. There is an online copy of what seems to be a promotional booklet about a shoe and boot factory there. It is 15 pages. An interesting overview of the factory works.

http://www.maybole.org/history/Books/JohnLees&Co/lees.htm

Hope others find this interesting

Erick
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