Turnshoes

Message
Author
marcell

Re: Turnshoes

#51 Post by marcell » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:09 am

Oh yes.. How could I forget..


http://larsdatter.com/wordpress/?p=687

alexander
1
1
Posts: 16
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:00 am
Full Name: Alexander van Abswoude
Location: Oegstgeest, Zuid Holland, Holland

Re: Turnshoes

#52 Post by alexander » Fri Nov 20, 2009 6:33 am

Hi All,

Interesting subject, Turnshoes. I once made a sample of that construction. It is not very easy to make. You have to work inside-out, use light substance leather or fabric, the most difficult is the toe. It has to be sewn in and turned also.
I know it s been done in a type of goodyear inseam machine, even today the frech Repetto company makes shoes this way. Turnshoes are very flexable and make beatiful fine shoes, however their difficulty is they cannot be repaired when worn thus should only be used occasionally and word indoors.

Alexander

User avatar
athan_chilton
4
4
Posts: 163
Joined: Sun May 17, 2009 7:03 am
Full Name: Athan Chilton
Location: Urbana, IL, USA

Re: Turnshoes

#53 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:50 am

But, Alexander, the shoes I recently posted are Turnshoes, and these have been made for outdoor (as well as indoor) wear for at least 35 years here in the US. Several small companies have made or are still making bespoke turned shoes, with industrial belting or even Vibram soling for an outsole. They wear quite well in fact, are endlessly resoleable until/unless the uppers get too worn out. When made of heavy bullhide or bison, they are indeed very difficult to turn right side out after sewing. Bald Mountain Moccasin company used to display turned shoes of their work that were 20 years old and still quite wearable!

marcell

Re: Turnshoes

#54 Post by marcell » Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:23 pm

Oh sure can be repaired! 100 years ago all the farmer boots in Hungary were made like that, and bootmakers had to repair those stuff! They not just changed the sole, but the whole toe also.

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#55 Post by peggy » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:14 pm

I apologize in advance for this stupid question and thank you in advance for your patience, I'm a beginner. I'm trying to make a turnshoe with a covered heel. I know you sew down to the waist, then the sole covers the breast of the heel and is sewn to the heel cover there. What do you do with the quarters and the rest of the heel cover? A shoe I have from the "Gay 90's" (1790s that is) looks like they glued in a scrap of leather the same as the sole leather that they skived a little at the waist, but it it is short, maybe 1/3 of the shoe and ends nowhere near the vamp. There are 4 holes in this piece of leather but no holes going any further down than that. The heel looks to me like there is a peg or maybe two on the breast, the highest of the two only 3/4 inch up and a third peg at the bottom of the heel, though that leather looks sewn on too. Please can someone explain to me how the back of the shoe is made? I can try to post photos if that would help, but I'm not sure if they go here or in the Gallery and I think the resolution is not supposed to be too high and I hope I don't goof up there. Thank you very much.

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#56 Post by dearbone » Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:45 am

Peggy,

Some Pictures of the shoe your are talking about will help,As to your question,"what do you do with quarters and the rest of the heel cover?" Without seeing your specific shoe,the quarters can be sewn just like vamp,The heel is covered and than attached to the the seat after shoe is turned and ready to receive the heel.

Look up "ART OF THE SHOEMAKER" By D.A SAGUTO, page 238-241 He is the interpreter of historical footwear techniques here.

Nasser

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#57 Post by peggy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:46 am

Thank you Master Cordwainer Vies, I will attempt the photos. I'm not sure, but I think my problem is that this shoe doesn't have any sort of rand and the Garsault book I think only deals with randed shoes although I could be wrong. I thought randed shoes would be harder make so I started with a turnshoe. The photos won't upload, so it may be a little while before I can work the problem out.


(Message edited by peggy on March 09, 2011)

(Message edited by peggy on March 09, 2011)

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Turnshoes

#58 Post by dw » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:51 am

Nasser,

A point of information...François Alexandre de Garsault is the author of the 1767 Art du Cordonnier (Art of the Shoemaker).

D.A. Saguto translated it from French to English.

That said, Saguto's translation is so heavily annotated and so well researched that it is almost a new book in its own right.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

elizavt
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:23 pm
Full Name: Eliza West
Location: Vermont (At school in Nova Scotia), USA

Re: Turnshoes

#59 Post by elizavt » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:09 am

Peggy,

I gather you are making an 18th century lady's shoe? I did a similar project this past summer. I took photos of the process to document it: http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=469139&id=733355000&l=2e594bc443

I too am a beginner and am afraid I will not be able to put my process smoothly into words but perhaps the photos will illustrate a solution to your problem.

Eliza

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#60 Post by peggy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:19 am

Eliza, The facebook photos would be helpful, but I'm not on facebook. Are they posted anywhere else?

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#61 Post by dearbone » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:21 am

DW,

Thank you for the correction,I am aware of it,it was for the sake of being brief and D.A Saguto was easier to remember than Francois Alexandre de GaraultImage

Peggy,

Our moderators here will show you how to post/upload pictures, looking forward seeing them.

Nasser

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#62 Post by peggy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:08 pm

13447.jpg
13446.jpg
13445.jpg

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#63 Post by peggy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:24 pm

Eliza, Thank you, I was able to see the photos through your link, just not close-up. I am of the Geritol Generation and not the Facebook Generation. The shoes are beautiful, especially the red ones. I think maybe my shoes don't have a separate sole from the insole though. I suppose I could pry the leather piece off the heel seat to see what is underneath although it seems a little brutal. I already wet the sockliner and pulled it back. I'm sorry for not clarifying the D.A. Saguto/Garsault connection when I wrote Garsault. I love the Saguto/Garsault book, it is a masterpiece, and I'm just beginning to understand it. It is much better and clearer for beginners than the John F. Rees reprint "The Art and Mystery of a Cordwainer" you cordwainers often refer too. For me it is a little art and a whole lot of mystery. I hope with my whole heart that someday I understand what he has written.

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#64 Post by dearbone » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Here is good different way to cut the vamp channel for turn shoes,The thread come out about 5mm from the edge on slant cut edge,when the shoe is turned it will cover the the upper easier,Take a look at the green shoe on the top of this page,one piece serves as both insoles and sole.
13449.jpg

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#65 Post by peggy » Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:45 pm

Nasser, The green shoe is very lovely. Please can you tell me how you cut the channel & shaped the holdfast on your turnshoe at the bottom of the page? I apologise in advance if I use the wrong terms. Is the inner channel widened into a v or u with the bone and the outer edge skived into a slant instead of cutting closer down to the skin side? That is good advice as I left too much space on my first turnshoe. What is the bone thing, did you make it yourself? It looks kind of like a spoon.

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#66 Post by dearbone » Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:47 pm

Yes indeed the green shoes were very well made,The channel is cut in such a way that your thread comes out 5mm from the edge,i think you understood it correctly,the channel is cut with a knife and open with some tool like a flat screw driver or a deer bone,i use deer bones to smoothen the soles from hammer marks and to open my channels,I use bones out fear of ions in metal tools when contacting veg tan leather,If you know some deer hunters,ask them for the feet bones,they make great shoe tools.

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#67 Post by dearbone » Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:31 pm

Not to stray away of topic, Here are some deer bones i use,The two on top are for sole rubbing to remove hammer marks,they have concave shapes like the bottom of the last/sole,the two at the bottom i use for channel/lip opening,The two bones at the bottom was one piece bone with a crack which i split into two and sharpen the ends to my liking for opening channels.
13455.jpg

tomo

Re: Turnshoes

#68 Post by tomo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:28 pm

Hahaha Nasser,
My Jack Russell likes the look of that top one!
T.

tomo

Re: Turnshoes

#69 Post by tomo » Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:28 pm

Hahaha Nasser,
My Jack Russell likes the look of that top one!
T.

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#70 Post by dearbone » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:52 am

Tom,you are right,they are very tempting for a dog,they can smell the marrow inside,but that's between you and your dog,mine for 15 years realized they were tools not food,but he chewed a shoe when he was teething and only few months old,I was very upset,so i told the dog angrily,he can't be a shoemaker dog if he goes on chewing shoes,it never happened again.

Nasser

peggy

Re: Turnshoes

#71 Post by peggy » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:25 am

Nasser, They look like the very traditional 'long bones' from the Saguto/Garsault book, but I'm afraid I should 'stick' with wood. In your shop it looks manly, like you vanquished the beast. For me, my shoemaking attempts are stolen time, and it reminds me guiltily of my many pressing kitchen duties and visitors would just wonder "was it soup or roast and is there anything to eat?" It would be safer all around if I found something made of boxwood.

Eliza, Please can you tell the source of the heels on your red shoes? They are just right and I would like to get some like that.

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Turnshoes

#72 Post by dearbone » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:43 am

Peggy, Wood sticks will work well, Hammer handles are used by some makers to remove marks of soles.

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Turnshoes

#73 Post by dw » Thu Mar 10, 2011 9:08 am

Treen...If I'm not mistaken that's what wood implements and artifacts are called.

I use some bone smoothers and some treen.

If a large thigh bone from cattle is sawn (not cracked) in half lengthwise, it may be shaped and polished until it looks and feels like ivory. Very few woods can match the smoothness of this surface.

Wood, on the other hand, must be chosen carefully for density and fineness of grain.

Boxwood would be ideal but getting a solid piece (with no pith) that is large enough might be a problem in this day and age. Boxwood is a shrubbery and as such large pieces are scarce and moreso in recent years.

Some rosewoods are pretty close--tulipwood (Dalbergia decipularis) polishes up really well.

Other woods (including some species of rosewood)...even woods we think of as "hard"...have relatively coarse grain and there will always be pits and rough structure no matter how highly polished.

I use my hammer handle almost as a default but not for the final rubdown. Hammer handles are usually hickory or some other similar wood (they have to be to stand up to the repeated banging away) and have a very coarse grain structure.

For final rubdown I go to bone or a rosewood tool I made.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

elizavt
Posts: 6
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:23 pm
Full Name: Eliza West
Location: Vermont (At school in Nova Scotia), USA

Re: Turnshoes

#74 Post by elizavt » Thu Mar 10, 2011 1:24 pm

Peggy,

I carved those heels myself from a piece of wood. I am sure there are sources for heels, but someone more knowledgeable than I shall have to tell you about them.

Eliza

User avatar
amuckart
6
6
Posts: 338
Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:45 am
Full Name: Alasdair Muckart
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Contact:

Re: Turnshoes

#75 Post by amuckart » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:10 pm

Eliza,

I just had a look through your facebook album and I think your shoes are lovely. You're having a lot more success with your first go at straight comb lasts than I am!

Post Reply