Turnshoes

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dearbone
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Re: Turnshoes

#26 Post by dearbone » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:00 pm

David, Thank you for sites, It is for me to find
out, whether the boots & shoes are hand sewn or not, I think they are, I put one shoe in the water and tomorrow I will open it to see, whether it was machine sewn or hand sewn? I will sir send you any information you request regarding the construction of these shoes & boots. kasper I am glad you like the lot.
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Re: Turnshoes

#27 Post by dearbone » Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:49 pm

6185.jpg

When I posted these shoes, I was looking for someone to answer my questions, I end up taking my shoe apart to answer your questions, but hey ,I always liked taking things apart since I was a kid,please look at that horse shoe! The insole & heel materials were not pure leather, but something I might call leather board, The toe stiffner is wowen sort of fabric, The thread, linen 6 starnds,no tracses of wax, well twisted,looks like the ready made unwaxed thread of today, the shank is wooden, that is what I use today,the shoe has a middle half sole, it was sewn to the upper,this is where I think the shoe was sewn & turned and the sole were added,sewn by hands in a mckay stitch style method. your thoughts are welcomed. Nasser

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Re: Turnshoes

#28 Post by dearbone » Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:35 pm

6187.jpg

The other option, half sole& sole added and than sewn by hand, the stitch sizes are not the same length, that is why I think they were sewn by hands,

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Re: Turnshoes

#29 Post by dearbone » Mon Dec 03, 2007 5:14 pm

6198.jpg

People of the gentle craft, Take a good look at this fine shoe, it is a turn shoe of high craftsmanship, We will discuss the details later, The upper sewing is so fine that I want to through away my sewing machine, I need your help here, It saya HUGGINS PASADENA as its label, has anyone heard of this company? I weted the insole to see what was under the lip (channel), there it was , burried under the lip, the thread, in the picture you see only one side of it. Nasser

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Re: Turnshoes

#30 Post by dearbone » Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:06 pm

6204.jpg

Here is a profile of this fine shoe. the buckle is out of this world. sorry about the back ground.
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Re: Turnshoes

#31 Post by headelf » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:01 am

Nasser, the Pasadena is Pasadena, California the same place that televises the Rose Bowl football game and the Rose Parade on New Years Day. Higgins was a retailer catering to the uppercrust. According to the Google books site where my Google search led, Higgins stores were run by an ancestor of Charlie Munger, one of the billionaires of Berkshire Hathaway a famous company in the USA. Since the 1890's Pasadena was a winter resort for midwestern millionaires like the Wrigley chewing gum family. Apparently there is a book out called "Damn Right" that is a history/biography of Charlie Munger that mentions Higgins stores. One of his female ancestors married a shoe salesman named Higgins and they opened their own stores. Not sure if the stores still exist or evolved to another name. When do you think the shoe was made? Must have been a while ago as women's shoes have not been made as turnshoes for a long time. Perhaps our historians can chime in on a guestimate of it's age.

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Re: Turnshoes

#32 Post by headelf » Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:12 am

Sorry for the misspelling of Huggins as Higgins in the above post--it's after midnight and the fingers are typing on autopilot. It is Huggins!

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Re: Turnshoes

#33 Post by das » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:26 am

Nasser,

What a great find of old shoes! (exclaims this historian) As to dating, it's hard from the photos, as the styles are not "trendy" to any tight date-range or decade. My best guess is they are 1910-30s, but I'd need to see each one. Being a "family" grouping, they may have been a ritual concealment, purposely placed in the building for superstious reasons that are unknown today. Being from a rather romote region in Scotland, they are especially interesting, and a good selection of working-class, factory-made stuff. As tempting as it might be, taking them apart is not a good thing to do to antiques Image

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Re: Turnshoes

#34 Post by dearbone » Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:48 am

Georgene,

Thank you for your research about Huggins, The shoe I have is a turn shoe for sure,and I think it was machine sewn,I found a page in my book,describing the process for machine sewing which are very similar to the hand process, I will copy the chapter from the book and I will post it here. It is chapter 83 page 449 Edited by J. KORN, Principal of the Cordwainers' technical College, london 1953
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Re: Turnshoes

#35 Post by dearbone » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:19 am

6216.jpg

I scaned the page, If you can not read it, I will type it.

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Re: Turnshoes

#36 Post by dearbone » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:26 am

6218.jpg

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Re: Turnshoes

#37 Post by dearbone » Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:40 am

6220.jpg

This is the end of the chapter, for machine sewn turn shoe. I hope some of you find this helpul, I did.
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Re: Turnshoes

#38 Post by dearbone » Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:56 am

Al,
Thank you for your insight into the scotish find. I have a general question regarding a place for donating old footwear or outstanding new ones to the HCC, Somthing like a museum, will you with the other members of HCC consider such an idea?

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Re: Turnshoes

#39 Post by das » Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:31 am

Nasser,

I'm glad you brought this up. Indeed, the HCC has planned a guild museum-collection since our inception in the 1980s. We have accumulated a small representative collection of footwear (18thc-20thc) lent/donated by members, but until we find a "bricks and mortar" facility to house it, we are asking that members hold off on sending any more objects. If you would like to donate these shoes, that would be fantastic, however for now just keep them safe, away from bugs, dust, and direct sunlight, and don't take anymore apart Image

We currently have a committee negotiating a long-term loan of our collection to an existing reputable museum, so the HCC collection can be viewed and shared with one and all. Until then there is an HCC video (DVD) showing each object (as of the date it was made) if you would like to see what we hold so far.

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Re: Turnshoes

#40 Post by dearbone » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:43 am

Al,

I am glad to hear the answer was not a stright forward NO, when there is strong will, there is a way, All you mighty men and women, You heard the cry of the boot/shoe makers for "bricks and morter" facility to house the historical or outstanding modern work of boot/shoe makers. I did put the shoes back in a box,they been there for 17 years and whenever we find a house, I will be glad to donate them to the HCC guild museum-collection. You know there is Bata shoe museum here in Toronto,the biggest in the world, I was a guest on the opening night,They said, Nasser, you wanted a museum, we built you one. Regards.

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Re: Turnshoes

#41 Post by das » Wed Dec 05, 2007 7:59 am

Nasser,

Good going, and I appreciate the offer on behalf of the guild. I may have met you at Bata Shoe Museum's opening--I was there all week tweaking their hand-tool exhibit and going to meetings and receptions--know the place well. But the USA needs it's own shoe museum, not only of shoe fashions, but telling the story of how the trade was established here by 1610 from humble beginnings; then factories by the 1660s; went on to develop most of the mechanical innovations still used in one form or another the world over; grew to world dominance by the 1880s-90s (the "American Invasion" they called it in the UK), and then the awful decline after the "Crash" of 1929. According to the US 1850 census, shoemaking and its allied trades were the single largest waged occupation in the country--second only to agriculture, which at that date was still largely using slave-labor.

It's a story that needs to be preserved and writ large, but that's why this guild was established, to preserve our skills and history, as the coat of arms says.

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Re: Turnshoes

#42 Post by dearbone » Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:19 am

Al,
What a missed opportunity, I had my shop in kensington market, which is about five minutes walk from the museum. when I read your historical narratives about our trade, I am sadden and at the same time delighted that you and other respected member are here today, The task of a museum is huge, I wonder, If big oversea's shoe manufacture and importers to the USA, can pay the cost of building the collection. I like to see the video (DVD) collection.

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Re: Turnshoes

#43 Post by das » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:05 am

Nasser,

Thanks for the kind words. Too bad I never met you at Bata, it was a long week and it would have been fun to hang out with another real shoemaker. Check out the HCC Videos page, and the shoe collection DVD.

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Re: Turnshoes

#44 Post by dearbone » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:02 am

Al,
The title shoemaker, I have been wearing for some time and one may say, I traded it for the world, coming from you, I will wear it with pride, Having said that, Thanks for directing me to the HCC page, for whatever reason, I never went there. I bought a couple videos AND enjoyed very much reading some of Golding sections, posted by DW, which, I was looking for for some time.
Regards.
Nasser.

stever

Re: Turnshoes

#45 Post by stever » Sun Dec 09, 2007 4:50 pm

Perhaps Al and the other Historic Shoe Gurus can answer a question.....

I was asked a question regarding a shoemakers claim that his reproduction ladies booties is an exact reproduction of an original. A claim is made that the repro was made using a MacKay stitcher like the originals to attach the uppers to the soles. I saw a picture of the original that did not have stiches on the soles but did have two visible holes from the lasting. Also the repro sole has a stitching channel with the flap pasted over the stitches unlike the original. Having limited knowledge of mid 19th C technical approaches I come to you-all. I know that there were specific turnshoe sewing machines in the early 20th C but was there such a device or attachement or even a machine that did the same thing in the 1860s?

Steve Ratterman

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Re: Turnshoes

#46 Post by das » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:13 am

Steve,

There was a world of difference between turnshoe vs. MacKay sewn construction. Old MacKay didn't even get his first chain-stitch sewing machines into production until he got awarded lucrative US Army contracts in 1861, and I doubt with all those juicy Army contracts he had any spare machines, or bothered leasing any machines out to factories making women's shoes until after the war. The first sewing machine that could inseam turnshoes was an adaptation of Goodyear's welt-sewer, which I think is like late 1870s...? Maybe even 1880s...? Of course hand-sewn turnshoes was "the" way most fashionable women's shoes were made 19thc. US, so I think the repro shoe vendor is just fibbing to sell his MacKay'd repros Image

So, in a word "no", there was not a turnshoe sewing machine or attachment in the 1860s, and doubtful if even MacKay's were used for anything but the cheapest, lowest-grade Army work. The 1864 USA QM Manual specifies the construction methods for Army bootees, for contractors/inspectors, in descending order of desirability: 1) hand-sewn welted; 2) wood pegged; 3) metal nailed, and 4) MacKay sewed. Further it states that for MacKay sewed, two rows of machine stitching must be used in place of any one row of hand-sewing/stitching. There's a goofy 1860s Army bootee at the Smithsonian--a huge size for a soldier who never wore them--MacKay sewed with a spiral of stitching covering the sole. I bet they were stiff as a board.

stever

Re: Turnshoes

#47 Post by stever » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:09 am

Al,

Thank you for your reply. Sometimes one's gut can sense something isn't right but can't put a finger on it due to lack of specific information or background. Your research offers a lot to help air out the MacKay hype and misinformation commonly cited. The transitional period from hand work to machine is an area in which I don't really have much of a handle as my interest is mainly pre-industrial. More research topics for me to investigate!

Steve Ratterman

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Re: Turnshoes

#48 Post by das » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:09 pm

Steve,

Glad to have been able to help. That's why we're here. The CW repro woman's shoemaker would do better making contact-cemented soles, and claiming they "at least look like turnshoes", more than trying to pass off MacKay'd work as turnshoe IMO.


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Re: Turnshoes

#50 Post by dearbone » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:20 pm

Marcell,

You know most of us can't read Magyars,so translate for us,where were the shoe found and so forth?

Nasser

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