Tools

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dw
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Re: Tools

#76 Post by dw » Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:44 pm

Nasser,

Oops...sorry, I more or less duplicated your post. I agree with your analysis 100%.

Tight Stitches
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(Message edited by dw on January 08, 2009)

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Re: Tools

#77 Post by dearbone » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:04 pm

DW,

With utmost modesty, there was no direct duplication, goes to tell that great minds think alike, as the saying goes.

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Re: Tools

#78 Post by romango » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:59 pm

Thanks all,

It would seem the tool does not so much pull up the stitch as perhaps jiggle the holes to be the right distance apart. Plus possibly round the top of the stitch.

This makes some sense to me as the leather of the welt, at each hole, could have been pulled left or right and the tool could realign the holes.

I have found that, no matter how carefully I make my holes, some stitches look longer and some shorter. Hence my interest in the tool.

Any opinions on this theory?

Marcell, I would like to see a close up of your tool teeth, if you have a chance.

chuck_deats

Re: Tools

#79 Post by chuck_deats » Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:43 am

Marcell,--I agree, plus it is much nicer to have someone local to talk to and work with. Sounds like the gentleman is well qualified.

marcell

Re: Tools

#80 Post by marcell » Fri Jan 09, 2009 2:26 pm

I will make the photo tomorrow, just I need to collect my photo set with my close up zoom. .. and I will check the pages you mention. Actually that guy on the pictures is my classmate from the shoemaker school. So, just ask.. Image

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Re: Tools

#81 Post by amuckart » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:19 pm

Hi all,

I was reading The Shoemakers Holiday the other day looking for a reference and got to thinking about this passage (copied from Marc's site):
"And hark you, sko-maker, have you all your good tools, a good rubbing-pin, a good stopper, a good dresser, your four sorts of awls, and your two balls of wax, your paring knife, your hand- and thumb- leathers, and good Saint Hugh's Bones to smooth up your work?"


Can anyone tell me what the "four sorts of awls" would be in the late 16th century?

I was thinking perhaps scratch, sewing, stitching and pegging but I don't really know what the difference between sewing and stitching awls at this time was.

Thanks.

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Re: Tools

#82 Post by marc » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:05 am

Alasdair,

A sewing awl is the bent (what most people will want to call a curved) awl, or an awl used for things like closing.

A stitching awl goes through the leather from grain to flesh. Usually straight.

There is a sort of awl, usually actually curved, with a flat rectangular cross section. This is used for stitching outer soles (there are indications that this was used on the 1604 Watford shoe).

The 4th awl is likely the pegging awl, which was at this time considerably larger than the usual modern style (Take a look at Holme for a picture of this).

Marc

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Re: Tools

#83 Post by amuckart » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:34 pm

Thanks Marc.

I didn't realise the curved sewing had been invented this early. For some reason I had it in my head that people were still closing with straight awls at the turn of the 17th century.

Is the awl for stitching outer soles the same sort of thing as today's 'square' awl?

Cheers.

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Re: Tools

#84 Post by lancepryor » Mon Apr 19, 2010 6:40 pm

Does anyone have an address or other contact information for Seigenthaler in Switzerland? I've googled them but cannot locate any information whatsoever about them.

Thanks,
Lance

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Re: Tools

#85 Post by kemosabi » Thu Dec 15, 2011 6:29 pm

Found these while digging through a old tool box at a garage sale last summer and was very surprised once I realized what was in my hand.
Can anyone tell me the vintage and maker? Even a guess. The bolt appears to be hand made. I don't see any makers mark.

Thx,
-Nat
14196.jpg
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Re: Tools

#86 Post by dw » Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:38 pm

Typically used more for saddle and harness making than shoemaking...AFAIK.

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Re: Tools

#87 Post by tomo » Thu Dec 15, 2011 10:30 pm

No they aren't saddlers ones, ours have a big boss to act as a fulcrum when you pull the seat down and the overall plier is curved......... Good score all the same Image
Ps. whats AFAIK? Image

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Re: Tools

#88 Post by das » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:36 am

Nat,

Best guess, 1880s-1930s, continental style lasting pincers, AKA the "Swedish pattern" in 19thc tool catalogues. The symmetrical head w/ two flats dates way back, but I think these are "late". The flats are the fulcrum/hammer, and being symetetrical, it doesn't usually matter which way round you pick them up, the fulcrum/hammer is same either side. Yours have such wildly modified reins (handles), they obviously had an "up" side though.

See: Salaman's 'Dictionary of Leatherworking Tools', (or my 'Art of the Shoemaker" for earlier examples). This style of lasting-pincer, more than others, was handy in other trades too, and had adaptive uses. The pair in Salaman were acquired from a guy using them to stretch/tack cloth over billiard tables for instance.

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Re: Tools

#89 Post by das » Fri Dec 16, 2011 5:05 am

CORRECTION --"Swiss" not "Swedish"

In the following US shoe tool catalogues: 1890 Hirth & Krause, the 1874 Henry Arthur, c.1905 Higgins, 1871 Page Bros., and c.1886 Alfred Scannell, this style of lasting-pincer is called, "Laufenbeger's Swiss" pincer. In the c.1882-3 Fralick & Sherman cat. they are called "Swiss Steel Pincers". They are called "French Pincers" in the 1890 George Barnsley (UK) cat.

Obviously a very popular style in their day.

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Re: Tools

#90 Post by dw » Fri Dec 16, 2011 6:43 am

Yes, I see it now. Figure 2:26 in Salaman, attributed to the Barnsley 1898 catalogue., there's an illustration of a French pincer.

I mistook it for a Blucher Plier which Salaman describes, on page 261, as follows:
The jaws of these pliers are straight and serrated. They are used for gripping leather when straining it over a saddle tree in places where there is no room, or no necessity for an anvil to act as a fulcrum.


If I recall correctly...over forty years have gone by...Frank Finch, my old saddle teacher, had a pair like the ones Nat found but without the curved handles.

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Re: Tools

#91 Post by dw » Fri Dec 16, 2011 7:12 am

Al,

I have a Wm. Higgins catalogue. I don't know what year it is but after your post I dug it out and there they are:

Laufenburg Swiss pincers, large, $1.45
................................medium, $1.35
....................................small, $1.20

Never seen a pair in action though.

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Re: Tools

#92 Post by kemosabi » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:33 am

Nice! Thanks guys.

Interesting; The old catalog price is about what I paid for them ($1).

Now if I can just find a pair of vintage narrow-nose pincers for lasting around the toe and heel. Image

-Nat

(Message edited by Kemosabi on December 16, 2011)

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Re: Tools

#93 Post by hidesmith » Fri Dec 16, 2011 10:58 am

Like Lisa, I buy lasting pincers from junk shops and such. I have a pair of narrow nose pincers that I bought from an estate in Southeast New England several years ago, but aside from them, I ground down a pair of pincers that looked like they'd seen better days - you get the idea. I used them until I bought the replacement pair. Regrinding them will remove the temper, but many of the vintage pairs I own had little or no temper to begin with - or they has all been annealed over time. I also considered the fact that the pair I ground was a size that I had a duplicate of, so I took the least desirable pair and reground them. They functioned as I required them to.

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Re: Tools

#94 Post by das » Fri Dec 16, 2011 12:18 pm

Like Bruce, I've ground a few "dogs" into narrow nose too, but if you do not grind too hard/too fast you can avoid drawing whatever little temper out of them. Usually the jaws are pretty soft, only the hammer is hardened. Hand-filing would be safer in that regard if you have the patience, but try to grind the dime-a-dozen Timmons or Wynn pincers, not the rare and desirable ones.

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Re: Tools

#95 Post by dearbone » Fri Dec 16, 2011 1:52 pm

Here are two old pincers,they both 20 and 15 written on them which i think refers to the width of the jaws in mm, on one there is a logo of crown and the word GARANTIE, I asked my Paris born apprentice and he said it is a French word,I asked if they could be Swiss and he said, there are Swiss French.on the smaller(15mm),there is goat head logo and W.S. is written under it.
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Re: Tools

#96 Post by kemosabi » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:19 pm

Is there a purpose for these holes? If the jaws are opened, I can see the metal was rolled into a circle across the full width, with a slot down the middle.
14202.jpg


I see that Nasser's pincers don't have this. Seems like a lot of extra work just for decoration.

-Nat

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Re: Tools

#97 Post by dw » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:21 pm

Well, I'm ready to be "schooled" on this one but I cannot imagine these pincers being very useful in shoemaking. I suspect that the angle of the jaws...or the lack of an angle...would tear leather, especially if the teeth were sharp.

It worries me.

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Re: Tools

#98 Post by dearbone » Fri Dec 16, 2011 3:56 pm

DW,

Honestly they are not much different than the modern pincers except the hammer part and maybe a little getting used to,The old teacher used this type of pincers and the ones i posted came from another well known shoe maker who used them to the last day.

Nasser

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Re: Tools

#99 Post by das » Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:28 pm

My guess is that the holes in the head were vestiges of the 18thc open-frame ones (see AotS) which were open forgings curled back under to make the jaws--the holes lightened them from being heavy solid lumps of iron.

I never bonded with my "Swiss" pincers, but like so many tools, you get used to what you get used to. The "Swiss" pattern were offered in so many US catalogues for so long, they must have been popular once, like the Timmon's/Wynn pincers found everywhere. I never bonded with Timmon's either. I was raised on "Whitcher Pattern", then made the leap to Berg's.

The 18thc ones I use at the museum are close to the Timmon's pattern, and it took some getting used to. If you use the very corner of the jaw to grab the tiny wrinkles around the toe--rather than the full jaw width--you can pull-in tiny "pipes" just fine without a narrow-nose. I grab, pull, twist them up, and then lay them flat, nestling the toe wrinkles as small as I can get them liker fine knife pleats. Hard to describe.

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Re: Tools

#100 Post by romango » Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:54 am

Just purchased these at a flea market in Florence, Italy (on my way to the leather show in Bologna). The heel iron is particularly rounded and the edge iron has a very long face. Both in excellent shape.
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