"64 to the inch"

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dw
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Re: "64 to the inch"

#76 Post by dw » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:55 pm

I would love to have access to something close to the old Russia calf. May I request an email as well?

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#77 Post by jkrichard » Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:10 pm

Janne,
I just realized why you had such an interest in the smokehouse at the Bar-B-Q place we visited when you dropped by. You realize though, that you'll be looking for new dairy cows every few months... O.o

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#78 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:41 am

DW.
sure, I'll send you a copy!

Jeff,
we have two calves in the barn and they soon gonna end up on the smoker :-)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#79 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:21 am

I have started making a Derby pair of the "Russia" calf skin. It is without the birch oil so it will not be the same smell as the origin leather.
But the tanner made some oil to treat it with instead of the birch oil. I'll post a photo of the pieces before/after the treatment.

Anybody who knows where to find birch oil? In the recipe if I remember right it says how to make it and that the final product should look like linseed oil in color and consistency. The birch oil I have seen is black as tar! The way to do it is to distill the birch-bark to get the flammable oil out of it.

The birch-oil is a crucial thing for Russia skin. The skin is supposed to be treated with it after tanning and the tanners had a special wood stick to press it into the skin.

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#80 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Wed Dec 09, 2009 9:48 am

Jan
I would like the recipe also.

I shall ask a local first nations person if they know how to make Birch oil. We have a lot of birch trees around here.

I wold also like to make so Smoke or Brain tanned leathers. They have a almost felt like consistancy. are all hand stitched some with intricate beading.

Regards
Brendan

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#81 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:26 am

Brendan et all,
I found it probably ten years ago on the net and I didn't believe it would still be there but I found it on another place when I searched the net {http://www.hexenkueche.de/rezept_daba/DieBereitungdesJuchtenleders,http://www.hexenkueche.de/rezept_daba/DieBereitungdesJuchtenleders}(RezeptausdemJahre1807).html
If any one is going to try it please keep us informed

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on December 09, 2009)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#82 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 09, 2009 12:03 pm

http://www.hexenkueche.de/rezept_daba/DieBereitungdesJuchtenleders(RezeptausdemJahre1807).html
This link will work, I hope

ps it didn't! copy and paste all of it and then it should work

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on December 09, 2009)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#83 Post by marcell » Wed Dec 09, 2009 1:29 pm

What happened with my favorite topic? Image
So today I tried my 100 yrs old Singer cylinder bed machine. Believe or not - it makes more delicate, smaller stitches, than the young (20 yrs) old ones. Why the hell the level of the industry doesn't go forward, but back? How those old guys could make better machines than today? That (called bootmaker's sewing) machine hardly make any noise, I believe it doesn'r see any technician.. and easily made 55-60 spi. (modern one could make 40-45)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#84 Post by das » Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:33 am

Thanks Janne!

Yes "Juchten" that's the stuff. I got some pure birch tar oil once, but it was very dark colored too. I did get some samples of boot/leather dressings from Swedish and Norwegian sources a few years ago that have the right smell, but does not darken the leather. If I can find the tin cans I'll try to post the firm's or product's names.

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#85 Post by das » Sat Dec 12, 2009 5:45 am

Janne,

Here are the two Scandinavian leather-dressings I was talking about that smell like Juchten/birch tar oil, and they do nice things to veg-tanned leather too but the aroma does fade.

The better-smelling one is:

Wilmas Kangsko-Smorning, Wilmas Naturproukter 0940/201 29

The more acrid burnt-smelling and less desirable one is:

Garvarens Ladersmorningar, Morjarvs Skinn, Garvereiet 950 42 Morjarv

Sorry if I mis-spelled anything and left out the umlauts--it's all Greek to me Image

If you can find more Wilmas, I'd be interested in a few more tins of it too.

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#86 Post by janne_melkersson » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:25 am

Al,
Thank you for the info! Both of them are from the north of Sweden and the guy who makes Garvaren Lädersmorning makes good reindeer leather of which have made both shoes and boots.
I'll give Wilmas a call on monday and let you know if they still makes it.
Another name for there stuff is "tjärsmorning" in English tar grease.
No problem with the spelling you just forget the dots above the a :-)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#87 Post by das » Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:11 pm

Janne,

Glad you know of them. LMK Monday if Wilmas is still making the grease, I'd like to buy some more if so. Sorry but my computer keyboard apparently doesn't type umlauts Image

I had samples of that reindeer leather. Nice stuff. When you talk to these folks see if the "tar" in the grease is Birch or Stockholm (pine). It's the smell of the old Juchten!

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#88 Post by dw » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:34 am

I have a tin of Garvarens Lädermorningar Morjärvs Skinn. I like the smell. I sure would like to smell the difference between that and the Wilmas.

I got some Reindeer and some calf from them some time ago.

The calf looks like it could be a somewhat coarser grained Russia Calf. The reindeer is surprisingly firm. Neither of them has a finish but I thought the calf would make a nice "country" shoe especially if dressed with the Garvarens.

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(Message edited by dw on December 14, 2009)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#89 Post by dw » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:45 am

Didn't display correctly for some reason...worked above.

(Message edited by dw on December 14, 2009)

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#90 Post by janne_melkersson » Mon Dec 14, 2009 11:49 am

Al,
Wilma still make the stuff they charge 35 Swedish kronor plus taxes and shipping which will make it in your end about 9-10$ per can. They sell them in package of 16 cans I can order one and send you half of it?

One ingredient is distilled pine tar which here is called pine pitch oil and is mostly used for anti-mosquito preparation.

I asked if they could make birch tar oil and even though they have not done it before he was interested to give it a try.

However, it will be expensive, but probably not as much as the pine pitch oil which cost about 140-150$ per liter!

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#91 Post by dw » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:15 pm

Al,

Despite my success, then failure, there is always another way to skin the cat.

I got alt codes to work in the one post but couldn't get it to work again (??) That said you can always insert umlauted vowels fro the Character Map, if you are using windows.

Go to Start> All Programs> Accessories> Character Map and chose a common font such as Times New Roman scroll through the display until you find the ä, then "select", "copy" and crtl+v in the editing window.

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#92 Post by das » Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:17 am

Janne,

Hummm... $80 (plus airmail?) for 8 tins of Wilmas???? Well ok, but do not send until Jan-Feb--I'm skint from Christmas Image

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#93 Post by janne_melkersson » Wed Dec 16, 2009 10:25 am

Al,
I got the price today and 1 tin cost 6,25$ plus shipping. I don't know if there is any tax on your side but I will send send it as "samples with now value" which use to be tax free.

If you like the stuff you might order more becasue the man who makes it got cancer and even though he believe it will not kill him he might have to retire because of it.

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#94 Post by dmcharg » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:19 pm

THE STRESS TEST on 48spi (yay!)

I've been very busy recently so only got to do the stress test this morning as there was a window of nothing happening.

I took the first row I did (which turned out to be 48spi), went around the stitches with a blunt knife to make sure the glue I had used to keep them together during the original stitching was broken, and not contributing to the strength, and placed it in two small vices with pads of leather to ensure that the edges of the jaws wouldn't cut into the leather. One, a bench vice, was hung upside down from a desk. The other, a hand vice, had cords tied to it which were attatched to a board, and the weights were placed on this.

I'm afraid it's with a web cam so the pictures aren't stunning, but here we go...



The setup, close.

image{close}


In total

image{total}



1kg

image{1kg}



4kg using 2 2litre bottles of milk.


image{4kg}

8kg. A 4kg slab of steel was introduced to save space.

image{8kg}


A 10kg "brick" of iron Sandra uncovered in the garden (we live in an old Gold Rush town and gardening can be an archaelogical enterprise!)


image{10kg}


And with 2kg of kitchen weights added. Note that the board has a bit of a bend.


image{12kg}


And back with the 4kg slab to make 14kg (WHOOPS!)


image{14kg}


Ahh, there we are...

image{14kg aftermath}


But what transpired was that the hand vice had lost it's grip, and in letting go had 'tweeked' one end and torn a few stitches.

image{damage}


image{damage closeup}


I'm thinking about taking out the leather shims and continuing with it and see how the rest of it goes. Also, remember that I had skived the 'roo down to about .25 of a mm. Strong stuff.

What do you reckon? Think that qualifies as lastable strength?

Cheers
Duncan

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#95 Post by dmcharg » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:33 pm

AAAARRRGG!! Take 2.

THE STRESS TEST on 48spi (yay!)

I've been very busy recently so only got to do the stress test this morning as there was a window of nothing happening.

I took the first row I did (which turned out to be 48spi), went around the stitches with a blunt knife to make sure the glue I had used to keep them together during the original stitching was broken, and not contributing to the strength, and placed it in two small vices with pads of leather to ensure that the edges of the jaws wouldn't cut into the leather. One, a bench vice, was hung upside down from a desk. The other, a hand vice, had cords tied to it which were attatched to a board, and the weights were placed on this.

I'm afraid it's with a web cam so the pictures aren't stunning, but here we go...



The setup, close.
10956.jpg



In total
10955.jpg




1kg
10954.jpg




4kg using 2 2litre bottles of milk.

10953.jpg


8kg. A 4kg slab of steel was introduced to save space.
10952.jpg



A 10kg "brick" of iron Sandra uncovered in the garden (we live in an old Gold Rush town and gardening can be an archaelogical enterprise!)

10951.jpg



And with 2kg of kitchen weights added. Note that the board has a bit of a bend.

10950.jpg



And back with the 4kg slab to make 14kg (WHOOPS!)

10949.jpg



Ahh, there we are...
10948.jpg



But what transpired was that the hand vice had lost it's grip, and in letting go had 'tweeked' one end and torn a few stitches.
10947.jpg


10946.jpg



I'm thinking about taking out the leather shims and continuing with it and see how the rest of it goes. Also, remember that I had skived the 'roo down to about .25 of a mm. Strong stuff.

What do you reckon? Think that qualifies as lastable strength?

Cheers
Duncan

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#96 Post by dmcharg » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:49 pm

Nobody interested it this thread anymore Image

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#97 Post by dw » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:33 am

Duncan,

For me, at least, it is very interesting but so far in advance of anything I have practical experience with, I don't have any useful comments.

I am impressed with the stress tests but never thought that 64spi or even 48spi was done or characterized by high strength.

What we need is for you to come to AGM and show us how you do it. Image

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#98 Post by dmcharg » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:10 pm

Sandra and I are hoping to get a 10+meg. dig. camera sometime soon, and one of the reqirements will be an ability to take movie. Then I'd be able to try to clearly film the prosess and send over a copy for the AGM. That way everyone gets a ringside seat Image
I didn't think that the hyper-fine stitched shoes were for strength either, but there were doubts raised as to wether it was possible to last seams that fine. 14kg = 30lbs pull.

Cheers
Duncan

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#99 Post by kaspar » Sun May 09, 2010 3:24 am

Hi.
John Lobb in London has one old exhibition boot that has ca. 51 stitches to the inch. Sole thickness, including the welt is ca 1 mm. And its stitched through. Uppers are stitched ca.36 to the inch. I say ca. cause my eyes went blurry when counting these with magnifying glass. The last is still inside the boot. You probably would rip the upper if trying to pull it out.
K.

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Re: "64 to the inch"

#100 Post by dw » Sun May 09, 2010 6:13 am

Kasper,

What does "ca" mean?

Is this the St. James Street shop? So they have them on public display?

Where on the boot is it stitched 51 to the inch? I would expect that if it is 51 to the inch on the welt it would be 51 spi on the upper.

The next time you get through there it would be interesting if you could seek permission to take some photos. I would like more than anything to see these...or a pair stitched at 64 to the inch...in person or in photos. 64 to the inch has always been a icon of ingenuity and perseverance for me and even though I realize that those who doubt will always doubt regardless of the credentials and expertise of the researchers who have seen and catalogued 64spi, I would wish to take it out of the realm of hearsay.

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