The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#51 Post by das » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:56 am

Yup. Just a typo--Al

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#52 Post by dw » Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:21 am

Phew! :thumb:
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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#53 Post by das » Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:22 am

At least I didn't type "heal" for heel, or "soul" for sole. I see this a lot, and in print too. Wonder what editors are smoking these days.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#54 Post by dw » Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:11 am

I suspect you think I was "dinging" you about spelling...but it's not true. I honestly half thought that "hell" might be some archaic and obscure word that described a part of the shoe we don't see much these days. I guess it was a combination of the complexity of the subject and the density of the conversation.

But you are dead right about editors and people who write for any kind of public venue--literacy is almost beyond the pale for them. They cannot be bothered because, for them, communication is self-justification. They do not really care about the reader and whether what they are writing is understandable.

For me...and the other hat I wear (admin)...that notion is inimical to the purpose of the forum. The intent and the purpose of the forum is to be an archive and a compendium of information...information that can be, ought to be, "ageless" as who should say. Not ephemeral or transitory. If only for the sake of posterity.

For it to be that, a certain respect for literacy...and accuracy...has to be the watchword. There are no language or formatting police here but "communication" is what it's all about. If only for the sake of posterity.

That's why the ability to edit a post is open for four days.

That said, Admin recognizes that discussion has to be allowed to flow freely and even randomly at times--that's why rambling digressions into nonsense and non sequitur...such as this post...are also allowed. :devil:
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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#55 Post by SharonKudrle » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:09 am

I will respect literacy and accuracy, and going forward will make all suggested edits to my posts within four days.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#56 Post by das » Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:39 am

Sharon, here's a link you might find interesting--lots of women's 18thc high heels: https://historicalcostume.wordpress.com ... la-moment/

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#57 Post by SharonKudrle » Sun Aug 06, 2017 5:28 am

I only found 2 lasts in museum collections online. The HCC video was indispensable. I wouldn’t recommend trying to buy, make or copy an antique last without seeing the video first.
Thank you for the link to the detailed photos of the beautiful workmanship on women’s high heeled shoes.
The photos of men’s shoes I refer to most are in Garsault on pages 235 and 244.
Garsault page 235 shows your method of feathering as you explained it here in the forum next to an original shoe, with lots of other construction details too.
Garsault page 244 has wonderful illustrated photos of original shoes with explanations of construction methods.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#58 Post by das » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:01 am

Sharon,

Stay tuned, as I plan to e-publish a PDF on here this Fall of yet another 18thc how-to text, sadly with no photos, but a few copper plates.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#59 Post by SharonKudrle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:32 am

Al,
I would like to refer to your posts #80 on this Forum under “The SpeakEasy” Re: “…a great way forward?” from Sun Feb 10, 2013 without quoting those posts about advice and learning shoemaking in this section. I am wondering if you have any insights and advice you wish to share about:
Frank Plucknett Chapter II, sections 26 and 27 on page 18: on the contours of lasts.

James Devlin, Guide to the Trade, page 11 in the preface of the book (available from the HCC), about instability in shoes.
Saskia Durian-Ress: Schuhe: Vom spaten Mittelalter bis zur Gegenwart (German Edition)
The shapes of 18thc shoes in her book from the Bayerischen Nationalmuseums and the Munchner Stadtmuseums looked different to me than English shoes of the 18thc. The quality of the shoes was wonderful, and so were the photos of early lasts in the back of her book. There were far more shoes than I expected to see, which was also very helpful.

I would love to see more photos of construction details of shoes and more photos of lasts.

Duplicating an antique last: I am in the line to speak with someone in J&V who would be able to duplicate an antique last. In the meantime, despite my poor woodworking skills, I’ll try to make something close to the original using Marc Carlson's website which includes your instructions. I am also working on getting a 3-D scan and having the last printed in plastic, but progress has been slow.

I am looking forward to a re-do of your video presentation on antique lasts and your PDF of an 18thc how-to text.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#60 Post by das » Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:00 pm

Hi Sharon,

Busy week here, so no chance to dive into Plunknett or Devlin. In fact it might be better for all viewing/reading here if you were able to scan the images/passages of text and post them so everybody would know what we were talking about--everybody might not have access to these books to see the images. Ditto, really, on shoe images in Ress' book. You've a keen eye too. German and English shoes had, and still do have different "looks", same with French. As for photos if I had them I'd post them, but when I record lasts and shoes it's usually with measured drawings, and not sure I'd want to "publish" those on-line before I get to publish them in my next book--lots of copyright scofflaws on the Internet. I doubt J&V have access to reliably dated "antique" lasts to copy for you, unless they're copying models of antiques other clients have sent them, which would probably make later hopping mad if J&V were selling them without permission. Folks may have sent J&V any old straight last and called it "18thc", when it's really 1840s. The only way you can be certain you're not buying a pig in a poke is to provide J&V with your own models, like 3-D scans of the Ruggles' lasts. Not sure when we can get around to doing another 'Ubiquitous Shoe Last' video, as these are usually shot during HCC AGMs--it won't be this year at all events. Maybe next year? The "how-to" text is 1770s, from German--look for it up here late in the fall or over the winter.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#61 Post by SharonKudrle » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:28 pm

das wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 12:00 pm
Hi Sharon,

Busy week here, so no chance to dive into Plunknett or Devlin. In fact it might be better for all viewing/reading here if you were able to scan the images/passages of text and post them so everybody would know what we were talking about--everybody might not have access to these books to see the images. Ditto, really, on shoe images in Ress' book. You've a keen eye too. German and English shoes had, and still do have different "looks", same with French. As for photos if I had them I'd post them, but when I record lasts and shoes it's usually with measured drawings, and not sure I'd want to "publish" those on-line before I get to publish them in my next book--lots of copyright scofflaws on the Internet.
Copyright issues might be a problem for me if I scan pages and post them here. Anyways, it's the ideas behind the text that I hoped to have your input on. Devlin is available through the HCC as a reprint. I'll try to re-state the question, as time allows.


I doubt J&V have access to reliably dated "antique" lasts to copy for you, unless they're copying models of antiques other clients have sent them, which would probably make later hopping mad if J&V were selling them without permission. Folks may have sent J&V any old straight last and called it "18thc", when it's really 1840s. The only way you can be certain you're not buying a pig in a poke is to provide J&V with your own models, like 3-D scans of the Ruggles' lasts.

I didn't ask J&V for their catalog, but that is a great idea.
Not sure when we can get around to doing another 'Ubiquitous Shoe Last' video, as these are usually shot during HCC AGMs--it won't be this year at all events. Maybe next year? The "how-to" text is 1770s, from German--look for it up here late in the fall or over the winter.
I'm looking forward to seeing it.
Last edited by SharonKudrle on Thu Aug 17, 2017 9:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#62 Post by das » Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:46 am

OK. I'll be watching.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#63 Post by SharonKudrle » Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:20 am

I was thinking about Plucknett, Devlin, and Garsault; and how the heel dome might help center the heel, the combination of heel and shank in one, keeping the quarters tight, and if women’s cloth shoes had anything like modern heel counters that keep the heel from treading over.
Frank Plucknett, Introduction to The Theory and Practice of Boot and Shoe Manufacture, from the Longmans’ Technical Handicraft Series, Longmans, Green and Co. 39 Paternoster Row, London 1916
In Plucknett fig. II, the line CED runs along the bottom of the last from toe to heel. Point C is the toe, point E the ball, and point D is the heel.

Page 18 Section 27: “The line CED in fig. II is sometimes termed the range of the last, although the term is also used in connection with the relative prominence of the outside joint; the line CED however is not the only curve in the bottom of the last, there being a transverse curve under the heel which serves two useful purposes, since it forms a cup which is more comfortable for the heel than a flat surface would be, and by centralizing the heel reduces its liability to tread over. In the forepart there is generally a similar transverse curve, but the amount is very variable, sometimes the bottom being nearly flat ; it is however generally conceded that making the bottom of the last convex assists the foot to keep in the centre, and thus lessens the tendency of treading over. There is also another important advantage since a considerable amount of the girth measurement can thus be provided for without increasing the apparent size of the finished boot.”
James Devlin, Guide to Trade, The Shoemaker, Charles Knight and Co., London, 1839 (reprint for sale through the HCC).
Page 11: “Is, let me ask, the principle of the right and left lasts, in shoemaking really valuable, or otherwise? And if valuable, why is it that the great majority of master shoemakers are yet in almost entire ignorance of the true properties of these lasts?—alleging, wherever they cannot complete a fit, an imperfection of foot, though the fault be entirely in their own insufficiency of skill. Or, why again is it that the light shoe or pump of the drawing-room sits often so loosely along the quarters, and in a most inelegant and injurious hollow curved line, where there should be no such curve whatever, making the foot appear thick and clumsy, while, day after day, the shoe becomes more and more ugly? “
And further down on page 11:
“In the ladies’ branch, also, how much is there to be effected! The handsome feet of our fair countrywomen being in the first instance pressed into a pair of miserable looking leather, stuff, or silk stocks—falsely denominated shoes, and which in a day or two’s wear are usually seen writhed into the most offensive contortions; the heel of the shoe in one direction and the heel of the foot in another, while the vamp at the outside toes is scraping along the ground, and the sole, on the inside is turned twisting up towards the face , as if to make complaint of the at once painful and unsightly deformity.”
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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#64 Post by das » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:33 am

By "heel dome", do you mean the concave "cup" of the wooden heel Garsault mentions? On 18thc women's shoes that are in pieces, I've seen, neither the "cup" of the wood heel block, nor the convexity of 18thc last bottoms, IMO, would be enough to lock the heel on center. The wood heel was merely held in place by being encased within the heel-cover, and the sole sewn down the breast--not what we'd call today "rock solid" in every instance. The rather deep "cup" on the man's wood heel, on the right, Fig. 25, 25B, pg. 236, is deeper than most women's heels I've seen. Yes, the extended heel breast of the women's heel served as a shank-piece to stabilize--the longer and thicker, the better. And yes, some 18thc women's shoes had a stiffener inserted between the fashion fabric and lining of the (textile) uppers, but nothing as rigid as modern footwear. Probably this served just to avoid that unsightly "belly roll" bulge that can develop around the base of quarters that are too soft and get pressed downward in wear.

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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#65 Post by SharonKudrle » Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:00 am

So, what you are saying is that on 18thc women’s lasts, the heel was too flat to keep the foot centered on it in wearing, and on men’s lasts the heel was convex enough to do so. On women’s shoes, the main and sometimes only source of stabilization was the extended heel /shank. You derived this information primarily from 18thc women’s shoes in poor enough condition that you can study the construction details. Thank you for the clarification.
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Re: The Art of the Shoemaker--Garsault, 1767, Saguto, 2009

#66 Post by das » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:56 pm

Just to clarify: the number of men's 18thc wood heels disembodied to study the depth of "cup" are like 1 or 2. But IMO, no, women's wood heels were not cupped deep enough to keep the wearer's heel in place. Yup, on the women's extended heels-cum-shank-pieces. After you handle some you'll see what I mean.

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