The Crispin Colloquy

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself. "
— Eleanor Roosevelt

I ran across this quote while in search of other data and figure it pretty well expresses the spirit of sharing on this forum. And, why some of us groan over our computer screens to see our new friends cover the same ground we have.

Contact me Chris if you are in search of green board, Texon type insole board, heat moldable counter, top line tape and all the things commonly used in women's shoes that may suit your quest for thin, highly flexible dance footwear.

Fabric is one material experienced shoe makers often hate to use because it does not "last" with the same molding characteristics as leather. Fabric is usually backed with thin leather, or another thin fabric, usually with a heat sensitive iron-on adhesive. And of course, you can't skive the fabric to finish the edges.

Denim is not always an optimum choice as the very weave has a tendency to skew or twist. In all fabric shoes you need to make sure the pieces are cut with the same grain perpendicular and parallel to the joint and length of the last or the bias nature of the fabric will give unpredictible results during lasting and the shoe will have a sloppy, stretched out fit after only a few wearings.

Cheers,
Georgene

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You can’t live long enough to make them all yourself. "
— Eleanor Roosevelt

+100

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Georgene, yes, I may be contacting you for some of these materials.

I was actually using the denim to try to make a composite shankboard rather than for the shoe itself. Didn't work nearly as well as the polycotton shirting and gorilla glue did (at about heel counter weight), apparently I did not get enough in there to saturate the gaps in the denim weave and or had it too water wet. I have a white glue version drying pending a shopping trip for titebond.

You can get Bontex and Texon from Lyn Flex @ http://www.lynflex.com/

I hope this isn't too rudimentary a question. I am having trouble getting my Barge cement to stick. I can peel the layers apart after using it.

I have tried letting it dry for hours but then it does not stick at all. So I have been letting it dry for 15 minutes because then it seems it sticks too well. But apparently it's not really sticking at all if I can just peel it apart.

What am I missing?

For most materials you should rough the surface, glue both sides and let it dry. When it's ready it's slightly tacky and will readily adhere. With vibram materials I roughly trim it at this point, then let it all cure overnight before finishing the edges.

What are you gluing? If you are trying to glue oil tanned leather it may never adhere.

Good luck

Diane

Let the glue dry as you have, and then heat one surface with a hair dryer until it gets tacky. Then press the two surfaces together. The surface to be heated is never the one you have lasted the upper onto as it will let the upper go if you apply heat.

It's the re-activating that does the job. Be wary of putting surfaces together when wet as the solvents are trapped and can weaken the bond.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Thank you. I have glued the shiny side of some leather to Vibram and it peeled apart as if it wasn't there. I have glued the suede side of some scrap leather to Vibram and it appeared to stick well, but wearing the shoes while hiking they started to come apart. I've tried gluing Vibram to the textured side of some rubber soling and I may as well not even bothered. Mostly I've probably been gluing stuff together that maybe had no business being glued together, but when even the suede side of the leather wasn't working, something had to be wrong. I'll try heating one side next time and see if that helps.

Diane

You can't glue the shiny side of anything, the glue has to key into the surface so any shiny surface must be sanded first. It doesn't hurt to sand the rough surface of the vibram to remove grease and dirt.

Try using two thin coats of glue, allowing each coat to dry completely before doing the second one.

Tim

Diane,

You want to rough up the Vibram (or any rubber soling/build up)on the sander as well. This gets rid of the mold release and oxidized layer making a nice, rough surface the cement can really grip.

Ideally you would be cementing 2 surfaces that are rough, dry, and clean.

Are you hammering them together? I didn't do that when I started out and it took a while to figure out why they always came apart.

Keep up the good work. You are getting really close.

Paul

I've mentioned favorite glue container, the wide mouth salad dressing bottles that are readily available. I only put a maximum of 1/2 inch of glue in the bottom so that it is always fresh.

This means I have to get out the ungainly big can for refills often.

I recently spotted these new aluminum Coke bottles (where you can buy half as much Coke for twice the price!).

I have found that these bottles make a great intermediate size storage that allows me 5 or so easy refills before I have to get out the big can again.

Ok, I'll admit, I'm easily amused.

Rick, What you have is very similar to what I'm using. I'm using a Tostitos salsa jar. I've poked a hole in the metal lid. When I put the lid on, the brush handle extension (bamboo skewer) pokes through that hole. When I'm not using it, I put the whole thing in a quart ziplock and zip it shut.

I like your Coke bottle refill idea, though it would be hard to see the level for adding thinner (I use Barge Cement).

At some point I'll come up with a better brush and will update my lid accordingly.

Hi,
Hope the question is under the right subject.

Could I use fibreglass resin as press cement, to harden the toe boxes of boots and shoes?

Hi Derrick,

Fiberglass resin on it's own will soak into the lining leather and make it brittle. This can be a problem at the top edge after a while.

I have made work boots with fiberglass toe stiffeners, using the cloth, I suggest coating the lining with all purpose cement first.

If you're looking for hard toe boxes...

I made myself a pair of firefighting boots to use for our wildland fire calls, I used two layers of celastic for the toe stiffeners, as recommended by the NFPA. After a few years of abuse the toe boxes are about the only thing left standing.

Maybe I've gone on a tangent and you're looking for regular hardness in your toe boxes, in which case you can't beat Hirschkleber, it's non toxic and easy to clean up.

Derrick,

I'd use wood lacquer before resorting to anything like fiberglass resin. Wood lacquer is pretty much the same thing as press cement only slower to dry.

It kind of depends on what you're using for a toe stiffener...what weight and temper of leather(?).

Ordinarily, I use press cement but I like to experiment. I've used Hirchkleber, dextrine and even Titebond III to stiffen toe boxes.

Press cement dries quickly and it allows me to refine the contours and edges of the toe stiffener before pulling the vamp.

My teacher just used AP--no hardening to speak of but it did bond the liner, stiffener and vamp together and that creates some stiffness right there.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

(Message edited by dw on August 03, 2011)

Thank you all for answering the question.

Currently I'm using a product out of the Gotz catalog. Ko Spezial, product no 740016. Synthetic resin, is this the same as the press cement you are using, or would you not know?

I'm getting fed up with Barge cement. I buy it from the hardware store and glue leather directly to Vibram rubber. It just doesn't hold.

I do not have fancy heating things or solvents and I don't have access to anything that has to be purchased wholesale or with a special permit. I only have the tubes of glue from the hardware store. Is there some other kind of glue I can get from the hardware store that sticks better? I'm tired of my homemade shoes falling apart after wearing them a little while.

Sometimes I'm not even sure it's the glue so much as the leather itself peeling off a thin layer that remains glued to the sole. If there's a solution that, I'm happy to hear it too.

Are you roughing up the leather prior to gluing it to the Vibram and/or roughing up the Vibram a bit as well?

As for 'special heating' things, an ordinary inexpensive heat gun is sometimes helpful. I like to put 2 thin coats of glue (I have tried all kinds too, with varying success) let the individual coats dry thoroughly in between the first and second one, until they aren't even tacky, then heat the glue on the Vibram (not on the leather) with the heat gun till it regains a bit of tack, and then press the pieces together.

Athan

Every major urban area that has a shoe repair has a finder as well. Even if you are not in an area where there is a finder you can often go to a shoe repair and buy or order cement and thinner. If all else fails go on the Internet. (I buy rubber cement...not suitable for attaching vibram...on the 'Net)

I use Dual 88. I don't like Barge and it has a long standing reputation of being less than strong when it comes to vibram.

That said, you need thinner for whatever you use. You need to wash down the rough side of the vibram with thinner to remove any dust...common or vibram dust. And you need to make a priming solution from cement and thinner--maybe 4-1 (I've never measured it.

You need to split or thoroughly rough the flesh side of the leather to remove all traces of "fluff."

Apply primer to the flesh of the leather and to the rough side of the vibram. Allow to dry thoroughly ...hours rather than minutes.

Next liberally apply cement, full strength, on both the vibram and the leather. Allow to dry and cure...overnight.

Reactivate both surfaces with a hair dryer and immediately press and hammer together.

All this advice comes directly from the Quabaug and cement companies as well as many decades of experience.

If these tools, techniques and materials are not available, then you will never be successful with vibram.

PS...some people have success using much the same techniques as outlined above with a contact cement engineered for laminating formica to counter tops. This cement ought to be available at any hardware store or Lowes, Home Depot, etc.. That said, you still need the thinner.

[hr][/hr]
Without "good," there is no "better," without "better," no "best."
And without the recognition that there is a hierarchy of excellence in all things, nothing rises above the level of mundane.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

I think actually that in the most recent case, the leather itself came off. It was very rough and I think the rough stuff just peeled off. There wasn't any glue on the leather side remaining, and there was a lot of leather fuzz on the sole.

Previous gluing efforts do seem to come apart at the glue though, especially if I walk though something dusty. I don't know what a "finder" is but maybe I can find some of this dual 88 stuff. What is the chemical that constitutes the thinner? Finding thinner be a problem here in California as they recently banned a lot of volatile organic compounds from the shelves.

Diane

You definitely need to sand all the soft, loose stuff off the leather. Glue will only sit on the surface loose fibres and it needs to key into the leather properly. Do you have a sander of some sort? It would help.

Once you have sanded back to the body of the leather, sand the surface of the vibram as well. Then, apply two coats of contact. I don't think it matters what you are using really, it's the preparation that is the problem.

I wouldn't thin down the glue, but making sure it is runny, apply a THIN coat of glue to each surface and put aside for an hour or two to dry COMPLETELY. When completely dry, apply a second coat, also thinly. DONT use thick coats, it doesn't work properly.

Once your second coat is completely dry, heat the soling surface with a hair dryer, or paint stripper, until the glue becomes tacky. The difference in feel is quite dramatic.

If you heat the bottom of the shoe and you have attached the upper with glue, then you run the risk of having the upper come loose with the heat. Something you don't want to happen.

Stick the warmed sole to the upper and the heat in the glue will re activate the upper glue. Then press and hammer the two surfaces together to get all the air out.

Let is cool and you should have no more problems.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

Capital Findings in Toronto has two small containers of Hirschkleber in stock if anyone is looking for some. Also it seems that Warkov will be carrying topline tape now as well.

Jon,

while shopping for leather at Moore-pearsall yesterday,I visited capital findings down the street for some supplies i needed and bought those containers of the Hirschkleber,after a test it reminded me of the hide glue i made some time ago,which took about 12 hours cooking deer hides,i can't read German,but is it hide glue,it sure smells and acts like it, I like this glue.

Nasser

Excellent, I'm glad they found a home. It takes a while, but Capital is happy to bring this kind of thing in for people.