Glues and Cements

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Glues and Cements

#51 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large »

Nasser
You amaze me with making your own hide glue. Were did you get the raw hide from? Is there a cow walking around with a skin graft or in the freezer?

I just started using hide glue for woodworking. It sure has opened some doors. I have been using Titebond Liquid hide glue, not the granular heated type. I will try some on a test piece with leather soon and see what happens.

Lee Valley Tools has all sorts of things, wood work and leather work do share some common items. I got some Diamond sharpening stones and they are the best. I can sharpen a Tina knife and a chisel or plane blade faster than anything.

To all.
As for non toxic glues well ain't that a real head scratcher. I know one fellow that uses water based contact cement that you would use for laminating kitchen cabinet tops. He said it took a little learning but said it worked well, if let to dry real well and hit it with a little heat and press. Cost is cheap.

I have used old blue jeans for a fiber and Titebond III to stiffen leather, works better than celastic, no acetone. again low cost and readily available.

Just a random thought??? I have been using shellac for woodwork. It is less toxic ugly that other finishes, and I wonder in the past, was shellac used in the finishing of footwear? It does have some moisture resist properties.

It is one of those old type things that used to be a standard hardware thing, but was replace by new and better wood finish products. but now regaining popularity.

I am going to try that YES glue also. Thanks for the tip
Regards
Brendan
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Re: Glues and Cements

#52 Post by dearbone »

Brendan,

it is good to hear from you after long,i hope all is well with you and family,the reason for turning to hide glues is the fact that i got tired of sniffing toxic for most of my life,enough is enough with the AP and all it's forms,think of the many thousand of years people made shoe/boots without cements,i want to sing in my shop while making shoes rather than get high on toxic fumes,I am learning a lot doing these tests and trying to produce a good enough glue as the AP,like DW asked for,i can say the glue i made so far is good enough for upper edge turnings,heel stacking and i am %90
sure i will get it to secure the soles too and when i make a pair without cement,i surly will post it here first.

Cheers
Nasser
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Re: Glues and Cements

#53 Post by dearbone »

Brendan,

I am looking for some deer raw hides,white tail or whatever,if you know of a source,please let me know.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#54 Post by jon_g »

Nasser,

Being deer season here in Nova Scotia it seems every other garage has a deer hanging in it. I'm sure you could hook up with some hunters in Ontario who have no use for their hides.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#55 Post by dearbone »

Jon,

Thank you,i will look into it,i know there is some white tail hunting goes on in Ontario and to be honest if i weren't grown softy in the land of Maple leaf,i would have done the hunting myself,last time i wanted to hunt a duck,but when i saw the chicks behind her,i gave up, i am not sure hunters will take out the hair and i don't have the space or the equipments to take the hair myself,but you never know,i might just get lucky and find the hides near-by.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#56 Post by dw »

Has anyone tried to use PVA (Elmer's White woodworking glue) straight out of the bottle?

I have been using Hirschkleber and Yes! to insert and stiffen heel and toe stiffeners. But I don't think...especially in the case of Yes!...that it is stiffening much. I'm not even sure that it is acting as a reliable glue, for that matter.

Mixing PVA in only makes the Yes! curdle.

So I'm thinking about going to straight PVA and I'm wondering about it getting brittle or any other deficiencies.

Anyone?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#57 Post by dw »

Nasser,

How's the experiment with hide glue coming along?

I really want more information on this stuff and how to use it...such as how long it has to be pressed into place before you can let go and rely on it to hold. You said something about using it to fold edges. That raises all kinds of questions about how it's used and how reliable the hold is.

Would you consider doing a demo/presentation at Delavan on how you made it and how you apply/use it?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#58 Post by djulan »

DW,
I have used Elmers carpenter's wood glue (yellow color) a few times straight out of the bottle. Recently I used it on thin, 2 1/2-3oz veg for toe boxes in unlined shoes. It has not appeared to become brittle when set. I applied it at the moment of lasting the toes to the already dampened or "cased" veg toe box. Maybe applying it to damp leather keeps it pliable when set? I can squish around the toeboxes with my thumbs and not hear or feel any crackling at all in the glue. And done this several times on heavier toe boxes and counters without any problems.

David
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Re: Glues and Cements

#59 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

Never have tried it by itself.

I have the same questions about the YES paste. The bond the YES makes seems somewhat questionable to me. On the other hand, my heel counters seem firm enough to me.

Has anyone tried either hide glue or fish glue?

Lance
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Re: Glues and Cements

#60 Post by dearbone »

DW,

Out of three tests i was working on,Two of them resulted in good glues for pasting and for the third test i needed 33% acidic acid to mix with hide gelatin,but couldn't find the acid,so i used simple vinegar which is 6% acidic acid and that one didn't work well(too watery)
The real raw hide cooked for 8 hours or so on slow heat and has to be attended is a good glue but requires the patience of Job to make, The hide gelatin cooked in water is a good paste and for best result both surfaces must be spread evenly and enough time for it to dry before putting them together.

I am looking for a hard to find small book(translation) which has a old recipe for hide glue on chapter 10,The book is " Medieval Arabic bookmaking and its relation to early chemistry and pharmacology" AD 1025 By Muizz ibn Badis, Translated by MARTIN LEVEY for the Transactions of the American philosophical society.

My friend Rene has a copy,but i have to travel some 3 hours to his house to read it and have not found the time yet.


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Re: Glues and Cements

#61 Post by dw »

Nasser,
The hide gelatin cooked in water is a good paste and for best result both surfaces must be spread evenly and enough time for it to dry before putting them together.


So is this "hide gelatin" what was left when you cooked the raw hide for 8 hours and then strained it? Did you have to do anything else to it? How do you store it?

As for the other, I wonder if oxalic acid crystals would work?

David,

Hmmm...I wonder what the difference between the white and the yellow is? I've heard about using white in various combinations (I think Tim mixes it with wall paper paste) but I've never heard of anyone using the yellow.

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(Message edited by dw on August 04, 2010)
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Re: Glues and Cements

#62 Post by dearbone »

DW,

The hide gelatin is the dry crystallized form of it mixed with water and slow heated,much shorter time than the "Raw hide" which is the real skin cut to small pieces and cooked slow for 8 hours or so until becomes syrup like liquid, than strained to get the left over hide pieces out and let cool and it becomes like gel,temperature heat/cold effect the it's condition from hard gel if left in the fridge or very soft in warm spots,tricky operation,i like to try another test, the crystal gel is good one and the longer it stays the harder the bond.
For heel stiffeners i buy the polymer paste in dry crystal form mix 2 or 3 tea spoons of it with a cup of water in a jar to desired thickness,It holds for months in a sealed jar without mould,if mixed with carpenter glue to make stickier,that it will, but it spoils the rest of paste by going green inside the jar,The polymer paste is not holding leather like cement but i like the way it hardens the stiffener and i also use it for the top of the toe stiffener.

Nasser
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Re: Glues and Cements

#63 Post by amuckart »

Nasser,

I've been reading your exploits with hide-glue manufacture with interest, but I'm curious. Are you trying to do this for the sake of learning to make hide glue, or are you just having trouble finding a source of ready-rendered hide glue in dry crystal form.

I have a kilo or so of the dry stuff for various projects. It's annoying to work with but sticks and stiffens leather very well. Just don't leave the resulting articles anywhere near a dog. Apparently hide glue + leather == chew toy as far as dogs are concerned.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#64 Post by dearbone »

Alasdair,

I am trying to find a replacement/substitute for contact cement,mainly to find /make a glue to fasten my mellow sole to the shoe before stitching and without resorting to putting three tacks through the sole to hold it for me until i am done stitching.

Nasser
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Re: Glues and Cements

#65 Post by tommick »

DW,
I'm in the middle of making a pair of boots that I used Titebond II Weatherproof woodworking glue on the toeboxes. It's made for exterior use. I thinned it a little with water on the first coat. Don't know how it will hold up over time though. It has some advantages and I really hopes that it works longterm.

Regards all, Tom Mickel
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Re: Glues and Cements

#66 Post by jenny_fleishman »

Nassar,

I may have found a copy of the book you're looking for. I sent a link to your personal e-mail.

Jenny
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Re: Glues and Cements

#67 Post by dearbone »

Jenny,

Thank you,It is the right book,APS is the "American philosophical society" I think they go by different name now,I ordered a copy,I was going through some of his other works online earlier,The man is/was indeed a scholar. Thanks again.

Nasser
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Re: Glues and Cements

#68 Post by danfreeman »

I have been using Elmer's Glue-all for years. It is a casein adhesive, no PVC or toxins. When I would forget to cook up some cornstarch or cassava paste for stiffening and securing counters and toe boxes, I would sometimes use Elmer's straight out of the bottle. It claims to be flexible when dry--a joke to Barge users, but far more flexible than most adhesives: I consider it excellent because it will bend just a little, with the shoe, rather than cracking or crumbling. True, it will eventually dissolve if the shoe is immersed in water for a day or two: treatment I hope my shoes never receive. The only aspect I dislike is, it's too grabby--it locks up too fast, in case you've got it wrong the first time, and need to reposition the stiffener.
The other paste I used for this purpose was cornstarch paste (3 parts water to 1 cornstarch, stirred then brought to boil, stirring the while, cook until it starts to become clear). The only downside to this easy-to-use paste is, it's not so strong or hard when dry, and takes a few minutes to prepare.

When I told clever Georgene about my two stiffening paste choices, she asked why I do not do as she does--use a mixture of the two, it is slipperier than Elmer's, and stronger than cornstarch. That's what I use now.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#69 Post by dw »

Dan,

When you refer to "Elmer's Glue-All" are you talking about the white carpenters glue? I thought that was poly-vinyl acetate?

What is the recipe for the cornstarch/glue-all concoction? Proportions is what I'm after. And when do you add the glue-all? Etc.. I think Georgene presented this at AGM-Guthrie but I didn't get a good copy of the recipe. Besides we should have it archived on the forum, shouldn't we?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#70 Post by 1947redhed »

Guess this is my cue to post the recipe. I've treated the text as a jpg picture file, so you can store it where you want.

I've also volunteered to present the second installment of "Sneaky Tricks for Women's Shoes" at the next AGM where I'll share other inside tips like this paste. Originally this paste was used by bookbinders. The more PVA the faster it sets. The more "paste" the slower it goes. Does a great job with sock linings. Allows you to slip them around for the best position.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#71 Post by 1947redhed »

Sorry if that was too big, hard to judge what the size will be, but y'all should be able to read it, with or without glasses!
Regards, Georgene
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Re: Glues and Cements

#72 Post by dw »

Georgene,

Thanks for that.

Why won't this keep? The PVA is stable, so that probably isn't the source of the problem.

If cornstarch is used, is it going to get moldy? turn rancid? smell? what?

(I don't have fridge in my shop.)

Also does it have to be warmed or brought back to room temp to use?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#73 Post by djulan »

All,
I previously did quite the same recipe as Georgene's, (gotten from Central American shoemakers) I used corn starch and Elmer's. But got curios enough to try just straight Elmer's after feeling the mix was a little soft. And without refrigerating it, I was shy of using the mix after several days, when it got funky.
I do not know the chemical composition of the Elmer's' various glues, but find them surprisingly flexible when set (I've used both white and yellow carpenter's glue), and they do harden the box toes, counters nicely.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#74 Post by 1947redhed »

DW, It should be fine to use through the day and return to the fridge at night and when not in use. It's the organic flours that will go bad at some point. I've used it straight from the fridge but with all things in the chemistry realm and cooking, it's usually best to have things at the same temperature. Just the friction of brushing it out to a thin coat basically room temps the glue that goes on your application.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#75 Post by dw »

Georgene,

Thank you again.

One quick clarification: a quarter cup of cornstarch and a cup of water equals somewhat over a cup of "slurry." Do you add a full cup of pva?! Equals two plus cups of glue mixture. That's got to be a big bottle of Elmers.

I was just trying to figure out how I could make a small amount up in the morning and use most of it before days end.

1 T. cornstarch
4 T. water
yada yada
4+ T. Elmers.

Might be hard to control the boil and cook but in a tuna fish can and on a hot plate, it might be do-able.

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