Glues and Cements

[1947redhed]

I've given up on plastic containers for cement. It stays much fresher and doesn't darken so much if stored in a glass amber colored jar.
You can order empty cement jars here:
http://www.misterart.com/g1151/Best-Test-Rubber-Cement-Dispensers.htm

And if you are afraid of knocking the jar onto a cement floor, nail or velcro an auto cup holder to the end of your work bench so the jar has an official "home".
Georgene

[dw]

I don't doubt that people are having trouble with the plastic glue pots...especially the Chinese made ones. But I've been using TS Boys for over ten years--I have them in three sizes--and the only problem I've ever had was when my adult daughter set one on fire (don't ask...I didn't, I didn't want to know).

That said the biggest disadvantage I've found with them is that if you do allow your cement to dry out, you cannot easily clean them out. Another disadvantage is that crumbs of leather dust, etc., accumulate in the bottom of the pot and form a nasty brown sludge that is, once again, hard to get out.

On the other hand, I never did like the glass pots none--they are like cheap new shoes...they fit fine for the first 20 minutes and after that they are pure hell. The cement will eventually make the cap nearly impossible to get open without a monkey wrench and/or heat and after the first go-round with the wrench the cap will never be the same again.

The Atco pots were good but they let solvent evaportate too easily. And despite the "teflon" coating, cement would eventually stick to the sides and lip pretty strongly. They also encouraged nearly ceaseless and obsessive picking at the dried cement to remove it from the teflon. I don't know how many hours I've wasted at that enterprise. The only person I ever knew who came to terms with these drawbacks had a cone of cement build-up an inch and better above the lip of the pot. Every time he was done cementing for the day he would brush fresh cement around the inside of the cone and stick the brush in it. The wet cement would seal the pot but it just kept building up higher and higher. I think he must have cut it down on occasion with leather shears. But I saw it with my own eyes.

Hey...it's an occupational hazard. None of these pots are perfect. Switch to natural glues and you won't have these problems.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by admin on September 11, 2009)

[dw]

Since there is a conversation about sources of gelatin based glues going on in another thread, maybe I'll ask this question again (first time I asked it, everybody was on vacation )

I'm wondering what everyone is using to close up the channel on hand sewn outsoles?

I have found that HirshKleber and dextrine (Yes) as are flexible when dry but dry so slowly it is difficult if not impossible to keep the channel closed tightly while the glue cures.

I've tried the white glue and if I hit it with a hot air gun before I iron the channel closed, it seems to thicken and set up pretty fast. But I worry about flexibility.

I also worry about the channel coming open and flapping in the wind if these water based glues get wet.

I've used AP and press cement. AP is good but rubbery and press cement is ideal except for the fact that it too won't dry quick enough to keep the channel closed.

So...what do you use? And what tricks or tips can you pass on for using it?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I can't afford to go on vacation,so i better tell how i deal with the issue of the closing the channel on hand stitched out soles.

First the channel must be scraped by a diamond/triangle shape tool/awl to remove some fibers form the sole to embed the thread as well as possible.2nd I don't close it right after stitching,but a day later when the soles are dryer,but still a little mellow. i live in a very wet country and the west coast is wet too from what i hear,i use Barge cement to close the channel, nothing short of that will work here and i use those small nails,4 or 5 mm long on front and the sides and honestly my customers like them. if you worry about the cement rotting your thread in the channel,than use a small brush and cement the edges of the channel,but making my thread myself i have full confidence in my thread covered in pine wax and bees wax will stand the effect of the cement, the alternative is a lot worse,if the thread become exposed the elements.

10179.jpg

Nasser

[dearbone]

A little correction here,I close the channel and bone rub the sole to remove marks after stitching,but open and cement the channel the next day.

[dw]

Nasser,

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

AP is what I'm currently using as well. But I'm not satisfied with it. I'm not worried about it rotting the threads...I'm using Teklon...but all-purpose is too rubbery. If I cut my channel in from the edge of the sole, that's not much of a problem, but I like to scrape and shape the waist of the shoe after the waist channel has been closed and sometimes that results in a ragged edge to the channel.

But it occurs to me that cutting a channel for the stitches of the outsole pre-dates all purpose cement by decades if not centuries. What did they use to close the channel BB (before Barge)?

Somewhere in this world is a shoemaker or an old established firm that still knows how and still does it the old way. What's the secret? Or has it been lost forever?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on October 04, 2009)

[dearbone]

Think animal glue/gelatin made paste, I have personally seen a master shoe maker for the oldest boot/shoe shop in London using it and this is the old way after the other old way,the secrets are not completely lost,just maybe highly guarded and only whispered.

Nasser

[dearbone]

I have been experimenting,trying to make glues from raw hides and also hide gelatin with dilute acid.

My first test was with the raw skin you see,i sliced some French fries size pieces, added some water and cook on low heat for 5 to 6 hours,my advice,if you decide to do this,make sure the rest of your family are not around or do it in the back of your shop,so after boiling,i let cool down a little and i strained it to separate what ever was left from the raw hide,I pour this liquid into a small jar and in two hours turned into jelly,So today i brushed some this glue to two pieces of sole leather to see how strong the bound was and to tell you the truth,i was surprised at how well it hold,of course AP is stronger and i was making the glue for the inner parts,(side lining,stiffeners)but i can see it hold the soles to be stitched as well,maybe by some tweaking of the recipe, my other test with hide gelatin is setting,but i think it is even stronger.

10492.jpg

Nasser Vies
HCC-Member

[dw]

Nasser,

I am going to be very interested in seeing what comes of this...will the glue keep? Will it need to be "reconstituted" each time it is used? Will it hold in moist conditions after it has had time to set and cure? How long does it take to set? ...and other questions.

Are you going to use it to close channels?

I bought some hide glue from a high class woodworking source but it is always "liguid" (excet when exposed to air)and has some sort of synthetic compound in it that I have never heard of. I don't know whether it is a preservative or a booster for the glue.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dearbone]

DW,

I am doing these tests with you in mind The glue is holding/keeping in the form of jelly 3 days after it was made and it is very fine and easily spread on leather and the bound gets stronger when left to dry over night,I have not tried it on moist leather yet,but i will,I also heard it helps to mix some sinew with the raw hide,that means more tests.I will be using it for stiffeners and side linings and stacking heels and possibly soles before stitching,i am running a second test,but with vinegar rather than the higher percentage acid needed,but i was unable to find,that's why the curing is slow,but it is working,the 3rd test will be done with hide gelatin and water on slow cooking heat,which i am hoping it takes less time to cook. i will let you know what comes out in few days.Oh,I read somewhere that the glue can be left to dry in the air for the purpose of later use which it can be reconstituted as you suggested.

Nasser

[janne_melkersson]

I am using AP for closing the channel and it works good if it is fresh. One thing of importance is to scrape away "left over" pitch/beeswax from the flesh side of the channel cover flap, if that is done the AP will keep the channel closed. I use a piece of glass for that. I have used Teklon a couple of times and even though I didn't use no pitch or beeswax it was marks of the tread on the flesh side of the flap which needed to be scraped away.

Also, when the channel is closed I run a fine file over it after I have hammered it down, that will close it definitely.

ps I forget to add that I am embedding the tread the same way as Nasser does. It makes it easier to close the channel because there is room for the tread. If a only a cut is made there will be no room for the tread.

Nasser, you did a great job on the sole!

(Message edited by Janne_melkersson on November 27, 2009)

[dearbone]

Before i make a report on the progress/development of the hide glue,i thought to say something about my intent here, The aim/goal is now to reduce or totally eliminate the use of AP in all it's forms in my shoe shop,a shoe made with no chimerical cement,but with organic glues,i have managed to get good results 2 out of 3 tests,almost %75 of the of strength the AP and that's good enough for me for now,i always thought,it is an over-kill to use AP to fold upper edges or to stack heels to be pegged,the hide glue will do this and much better,I am thinking of making a shoe without using any AP chemical/cement in it's making,but only with the organic hide glue i made.

DW,

The hide glue to my surprise works much better on mellow leather than dry,it took me a while to understand this after some thinking,it closes channels so well i can't even see the seam,but keep in mind there is no thread in the channel yet,another careful batch of the hide glue was made today and is now setting.

Nasser

[dearbone]

Jan,

Thank you,just a shoe maker trying to do his best out of not so good sole leather.

Regards
Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Well, I would like to do the same thing...eliminate all solvent based cements. I am not sure it can be done and yield the same certainty that AP will give sometimes but I sure would like to try some of your hide glue.

But a question...the hide glue isn't tacky, or is it? So, how do you hold the channel tightly closed until the glue has set?



Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[hidesmith]

DW,
Hide glue is an old staple in woodworking shops. The stuff Nasser is making is used hot - but no more than 160 degrees. Luthiers use this glue a lot, and it can be purchased in flake form, with instructions as to how to reconstitute it. My father told me of working in a cabinet shop as a young man. As the last hired, it was his job to get to work early enough to turn on the glue pot so it was hot enough to spread once everyone else got there. The hide glue is applied hot and sticks as it cools. It should be left to finish curing/drying/hardening for 16 to 24 hours.

Be aware, though, that hide glue is water soluble, and this is one of the reasons it is used in lutherie - the instrument is easily repaired or tuned up. Adding water is a way of softening the glue. Both heat and moisture affect the hardness and strength of the hide glue's bonding capability. Atmospheric humidity also affects the hardening of hide glue. During a hot humid spell, I've seen a hide glued joint take up to 36 hours to cure.

Hide glue also tends to be increasingly brittle as it ages. It has been used extensively in bookbinding in the past, and you'll notice that once the spine is exposed through wear and heavy use, the back of the signatures is filled with brown flakes that often rub off easily.

I have also used white glue, AKA PolyVinylAcetate, or PVA, as well as wheat paste. Of the two, I prefer the PVA for most uses - it is water soluble, dries relatively fast (2 hours or so), makes a fairly strong bond, allows you to reposition before it starts to get tacky and is more flexible than hide glue, at least in the long run. Wheat past is a slow drying adhesive and is also water soluble, but if you can apply it and leave it in the press for several hours, it makes a good bond, leather to leather.

Either PVA, hide glue or wheat paste will slow down the construction of the shoe, but if your goal is to get away from the smell and toxicity (I think I just invented a word!) of the contact cements, they might be worth experimenting with.
I hope I've helped,

B

[dw]

Bruce,

Thanks for the info. I guess I knew that hide glue was water soluble but I was hoping that cooking it like Nasser is doing might make it less soluble.

The longer I look the more frustrated I get...nothing does the job I want a cement/glue to do--be tacky like contact cement so that you don't have to hold pieces in place while the glue dries, and/or dry fast...maybe fast enough that if you do have to hold pieces in place your hands won't cramp up, be flexible, and be waterproof. And be a naturally derived product with little or no toxicity. I'm not asking much, am I?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[hidesmith]

DW,
Cooking rawhide is how hide glue is made. Nasser is MAKING hide glue. By the way - one of the side benifits of hide glue is, in a desperate situation, it has some nutritional value. Eat it with a lot of water, though, or suffer the constricting consequences.

If I'm not mistaken, the old time makers used wheat paste or rice past (a tip-o'-the-hat to June). Al can verify or correct me on that, if he wants to weigh in here?

If you have an old screw type sole press, you can create the paste joint and then put it and leave in the press until it's dry.

If you're pasting flat pieces, get an old copy press, or book press and some sheet soling mat'ls. Create the pasted joint and place it in the press between two sheets of cloud, or something like it.

Obviously, you'd have to experiment with it before you put it on a customer's feet, but . . . well, there it is.

Are you asking too much? Of COURSE you are - it's what tiggers to best! (mind, I'm talking about all of us)

B

[hidesmith]

When using hide, I quote Pat Morita - "Patience, Daniel-San, patience. Breathe in, breathe out."

B

[dearbone]

DW,Bruce,

The hide glues i made are jelly-like soft and easy to brush on leather and do not need to be reactivated to use every time,although i made a batch from hide gelatin and heated in water which became hard jelly which meant i have to reheat a little every time i need it,so i abandoned this recipe for now,but gelatin in vinegar/acetic acid produce a very good jelly-like glue,it takes days to set if the acid is weak,the best glue so far turned out to be the one made from raw hide cut to pieces and slowly cooked until the skin falls apart and i mean it literally here,it took 8 hours for my second batch and it is ready when i put two fingers in the goop,they will stick together in few minutes time,when that happens,the heat is turned off,than the liquid is stained from the goop in few minutes and put in some plastic container and let cure, the liquid will become sticky jelly and when that happens,put the cap on the container to seal it and it will stay like that for ? I am turning my attention to the dead Arab chemist of the 8 c and up for clues and recipes for organic glues,the search goes on.

Nasser

[dearbone]

Bruce,

Wheat glue is the water and flour glue that every kid made when we were little,i buy it dry in flake-like and add water to it and use it for the inner parts in my shoes,but it is a weak glue and is intended for paper.
Your comment about being patient making the hide glue is so true,i started to hallucinate staring at it for so long and stir it occasionally not to stick to bottom of the pot,I wouldn't dare to eat it after all that work, Rather buy the most expensive pate instead.

Nasser

[athan_chilton]

Has anyone tried the non-toxic glue called YES? Also, I cannot find anyone online that sells Hirschkleber--will call MacPherson's in Seattle if they might carry it? Their online catalog doesn't show it.

[romango]

Athan,

Yes, I have used Yes! glue.

IMHO, it is very close to Hirschkleber. I did side-by-side comparisons with strips of veg shoulder and I could not see any difference. They both set up equally stiff and were both equally softened when re-wet.

I'm still using the Hirschkleber I have left but plan to use Yes! when supplies run out. I currently use it for fitters.

[tia_brun]

THe Yes! glue is available at Michaels Craft Store for about $10. I have not use it yet but it was recommended on this site before for individuals that could not get their hands on Hirschkleber paste.

T

[das]

For the traditionalist shoemakers you want to use RYE flour and water to the consistency you like, brought just to a boil to activate the glutens. If you use it with only cold water, all you have activated are the starches, hence it is weak.

Hide glue flakes can be got from Woodcraftsupply.com, like a can of thin fingernails.

[dearbone]

Al,

Thank you for your insight,i think my raw hide and hide gelatin will make a good glues,i might try the rye flour recipe sometime,thank you for the source to get some more of the hide glue flakes,i need some more for future use,but i think i made plenty to go for a while.

Best Regards
Nasser