Glues and Cements

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dw
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Re: Glues and Cements

#101 Post by dw »

Not true.

Yes is dextrine glue.

Hirschkleber is, IIRC, glue made from the hooves of calves or maybe deer.

I believe Hirschkleber remains a bit more flexible after it dries than the Yes.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#102 Post by romango »

I agree, they are not the same. But they are fairly similar in their behavior. I use it all the time on fitters but I have not run out of Hirschkleber yet so I haven't used it on finished shoes.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#103 Post by sharon_raymond »

No, I just use one coat, I think turn-around time is longer than 60 min, I'll send you a small sample. Sharon
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Re: Glues and Cements

#104 Post by dw »

Sharon,

I tried the Titan DX (thank you) and while my results and observations are preliminary...I must say I like it. It seems to have no odor whatsoever and so far exhibits a remarkably strong bond.

I was a little concerned because it was touted as being thin enough to spray but that doesn't seem to be a problem.

What's more my preliminary tests show that the drying time can be shortened with a little heat (hair dryer). I put two pieces together in less than 15 minutes--the cement had gone from white to transparent with the heat yet it was still tacky. That test is going to have to cure for 24 hours before I will be satisfied but it already seems strongly fixed.

The other test sat about 45 minutes...air drying...but after 30 min. didn't seem to change much. So I suspect I could have bonded the two pieces sooner.

I think I'm gonna give a gallon of this a shot. If things pan out the way they seem to be, it might be the best water-based contact cement I've run across.

Thanks again for bringing this to our attention.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#105 Post by courtney »

i'm not sure where to post this so,

I have some oil tan leather and want to do a cement construction, Am I gonna have problems with the AP sticking to oily leather?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#106 Post by dw »

Yes.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#107 Post by paul »

Courtney,

Speak to the folks at Mid-West Industrial about your glueing questions. 314 781-5831 They'll let you describe your needs to a chemist.
Let them know you were refered by the Colloquy.

They have sent out pint samples in the past.
I just got one of their rubber cements.

Probably you'll find what you're looking for from them.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#108 Post by courtney »

Thanks Paul & D.W.,

I just finished folding some edges and they dont really want to stick, Sounds like a good tip about mid-west, but,

I guess these need to be welted to hold without some specialized glue, I dont mind doing that if I know they'll fit,

Do you guys have any suggestion about how to get them to a place where I can try them on and then welt them if they're o.k.?

I think youre gonna say make fitters?

Thanks,
Courtney

I almost ordered some more of this stuff cuz when I was working with it it skived real good and it seemed to almost mold itself to the last when I held it against it, but this gluing thing is kind of a drag.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#109 Post by courtney »

Paul, I just talked to Mid-west, I spoke with Paul the chemist and he could'nt have been nicer or more helpfull. Thanks for the tip.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#110 Post by romango »

I have a pair of shoes where I'm attaching a Vibram sole with only glue. I had a little trepidation about the strength of the bond, so I did a few experiments. I'm using Duall 88 All Purpose cement. Also, it's not actually Vibram but similar product called Pyramid Strip.

I will say that it's pretty much my standard practice to heat up (at least one of) my surfaces with a heat gun before bonding. But, in one of my tests, I put the Pyramid Strip, with 2 coats glue applied, into a ~200 degree oven for 2 minutes, not only activate the glue but soften the Pyramid Strip so that it would more easily conform.

I was shocked to find that the bond was an order of magnitude stronger than any of my previous tests using the more casual heat gun approach.

In all my other tests, I was able to pull the two pieces apart with sufficient effort. With the oven activated test the bond was so strong, I could not get the pieces apart at all.

Of course, I wouldn't want to put a leather sole in the oven but I think I will look into one of those infrared lamp units for my future glue sole work. The effect was that dramatic!

Just thought I would share this observation.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#111 Post by luckyduck »

Rick,

Great find. I am always concerned about the bond when I put a rubber outsole over a leather bottom.

It doesn't help the bonding that my shop runs about 50 degrees in the winter.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#112 Post by romango »

I took a look at an infrared $1000 "heat activator" and it's not much more than a few $5.00 infrared lamps and a timer. I think I'll just patch one together myself. Image
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Re: Glues and Cements

#113 Post by jon_g »

I was concerned about the bond when using vibram lug soles, so I called and talked to a representative, who suggested letting the glued together soles cure overnight before touching them to a grinder. This has been very successful. I try to let all of my leather to rubber glue bonds cure now.
andre

Re: Glues and Cements

#114 Post by andre »

Rick,
you're right, an old steel box, like jewelery home safe, put a good heat coil and you're done. Even a timer no need, for that one pair you do you can look at your watch, isn't it.
I'm not sure about the material you're using, but if it's a kind of rubber or PU I'm testing for a good activation like that: I press the activated sole/insole on the inside of my lower arm, about 5 inch over my watch, there the skin is sensitive and I need to feel a light, but reasonable pain in the arm, than the activation is 100%, if it's just feels warm, it's certainly not good enough for a good bonding.
I don't know about cooking a leather sole in the oven, but with any kind of activator you should put your leather sole in, than you will get a good bonding. Of course I do not know your adhesives either, but that you can check with your supplier, if this product is suitable for activation purpose.
Have a merry Christmas to you all!
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Re: Glues and Cements

#115 Post by romango »

Jon,

I agree. Letting the sole cure overnight definitely increases the strength of the bond. The initial bond is known as the "green strength" which becomes greater over time.

Ok. I stole the bathroom heat lamp. This configuration works well for heel lifts. Maybe 2 in tandem for soles will be sufficient.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#116 Post by producthaus »

I did a test with the below variables to see how I could make a pair of shoes using Horween Chromexcel (natural). Forget cement-lasted, all I wanted was to be able to glue the folded edge, during lasting until inseaming, and stiffeners...

Surfaces:
Grain-to-grain
Grain-to-flesh
Flesh-to-seam tape

Glues:
Hirschkleber
Titan DX
Barge AP

The only test that worked was that barge AP works fine for gluing the folded edge. The surfaces are flesh-to-seam tape.

The Hirschkleber did not hold at all on either surface type - how do I manage lasting in order to inseam? How do I manage gluing stiffeners?

Titan DX and Barge AP achieved a bond that was, at best, similar to a temporary hold with rubber cement.

Anyone have experience with oily chromexcel?
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Re: Glues and Cements

#117 Post by romango »

Nick,

You absolutely must rough up any grain surface with sandpaper. Then Barge AP will hold like gangbusters.

Glued surfaces must be dry before adhering but not more than ~3 hrs.

This is for any leather. I have no experience with Chromexcel specifically.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#118 Post by dw »

Nick,

You face two problems...first, any solvent based cement will thin and draw ambient oils into itself. This prevent prevents the cement from drying as the solvent can never entirely evaporate away and the cement cannot cure.

And neoprene cements rely upon curing around the fibers and pores of the leather to create a bond. To the extent that the cement does cure, the oil all by itself is still present as a lubricant--the cement is effectively bonding to the oil.

There are water based contact cements...most of them are latex. I used to get a product that was known colloquially as "Java Milk" that seemed to work fine. I have also experimented with WB contact cements from Upaco and other chemical companies. I think it is the Upaco 1812 that worked the best but it has to be bought in fairly large quantities and will go bad after a while.

I believe the Titan DX would work but it differs from most contact cements in that it is touchy about drying time it needs to dry 20 minutes or so before the pieces can be put together.

Hirshkleber is not meant for assembly but should still work good in the heel stiffener area. It too needs to dry and set to obtain maximum strength.

Ricks comments about roughing the surfaces is spot on...and bears repeating.

As a last resort you might call or email Nick at Horween as ask him about suitable cements for ChromeXcel.

Hope that helps.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#119 Post by noonan »

The only way to go is with Upaco Latex. I used it whenever we worked with Cordovan, or for cementing leather bottoms which used to be impregnated with Butyle.(Golf shoes) It's not the best bond, but keeps everything together until you outsole stitch, then youre all set. Lett it dry real good. On the pressed toplines and such, Sometimes the fold will lift up in spots, but no worry, it gets top stiched down, and again youre all set. DW is correct, you gotta order 5 gallons minimum, and a small shop won't use that in ten years. It will get congealed over time, where it gets all elastic strands of spaghetti and kind of messy, and bugers and you find yourself taking off the top of the bucket with a ladle what's left of the clean cement.
Happy New Year Crispinites
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Re: Glues and Cements

#120 Post by dw »

Parenthetically, I got some ChromeExcel samples from Horween some weeks ago and this morning, I cut a small strip and skived the end as if I were preparing to do a folded edge--half inch wide skive on the flesh side.

Then I applied Titan DX. 15 minutes later I folded the edge and tapped down with a hammer.

The result is solid. I am sure I could pull it apart if I tried but I have no doubt that I could fold the entire topline of a pair of shoes and not experience any failure of the bond or the fold before I got the lining in and stitched along the edge.

I might add that this whole issue is a good reason to suspect any glue-on soling technique. Yes, I know that some shoes/boots are made with glue-on soles and do very well, but there is always the possibility of residual oils or oils being applied to the shoes after they have been worn for a while. It begs the question whether such after-the-fact oils can affect the bond long term. Sewing or stitching is always the most reliable approach, in my opinion.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#121 Post by producthaus »

I will try and find some Upaco, does it bond on contact? I guess my worry is that lasting requires a working window where the glue is not quite dry and you can make adjustments before letting the glue cure.
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Re: Glues and Cements

#122 Post by sorrell »

I bought a gallon of the Titan DX and I like it OK. I do have a problem with my brush getting hard, and it's sitting in the glue in my glue pot... any suggestions?

I occasionally make a boot where I do all of the decorative stitching before I cement in the lining leather. The only stitching that goes through the lining is at the top beading. In these cases I cement the tops and liners together with Barge All-Purpose. Would the Titan DX be a good substitute or is it a temporary bond like rubber cement?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#123 Post by dw »

Lisa,

This cement is new to all of us, I think. But I have had a chance to work a little with it.

First, either wash your brush immediately after using or keep a jar of water on your bench and drop the brush into it when done spreading cement.The cement is water soluble so as long as it doesn't dry on the brush it should clean up easily.

Second, I think the cement is equivalent to an all-purpose cement. I think it has a roughly equivalent tack and I don't think that it should be regarded as the same as rubber cement.

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Re: Glues and Cements

#124 Post by luckyduck »

Lisa and DW,

I got some Titan DX as well. Keeping the brush in a jar of water did not work for me at all as it still got hard sitting in the water. It was like it catalized instead of dried if that makes any sense. I've backed off using it as I don't want to get a new brush every time. Maybe someone else has had better luck?

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Re: Glues and Cements

#125 Post by ccs »

Back up the page a bit in October

http://www.thehcc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=33585#p33585

Sharon recommended dishwashing soap in water for preserving titan DX brushes (irony that bit of a google research lead right back here!)

Haven't tried it yet myself as I haven't picked up the actual cement yet - specifically trying to figure out how to source it other than by mail order, given the freezing temperatures. Any retail chains carry it?

(Message edited by ccs on January 14, 2011)
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