Glues and Cements

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
romango
8
8
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
Full Name: Rick Roman
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Glues and Cements

#1 Post by romango » Mon May 18, 2009 9:33 pm

There is a new formulation of Barge all purpose cement to replace the one that has been around forever. Apparently, without toluene??

Does anyone have any report on it's performance yet?

Is it thinned with the same solvent, or is there a new one?

User avatar
dearbone
8
8
Posts: 1032
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 12:23 pm
Full Name: Nasser Vies
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Re: Glues and Cements

#2 Post by dearbone » Tue May 19, 2009 4:04 am

Rick, I opened a gallon of Barge to pour to my cement container a couple weeks ago and noticed the color has changed to dark brown,i think it is better than the old cement,it doesn't dry/thicken in few days,but stays liquid longer,the Oder is still there and performance is good,i assume the solvent works on it,but have not tried it on the new batch yet.

Nasser

User avatar
jon_g
5
5
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:46 am
Full Name: Jon Gray
Location: Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#3 Post by jon_g » Tue May 19, 2009 4:23 am

Rick,

I don't know about the all purpose, to be honest I haven't been happy with it in the last year or so, it's seemed very chalky or something and thickens up really bad. So we're trying out some of the european cements, Renia, so far so good, and Koraplast, which seems to need to coats.

The new Barge TF Rubber Cement, toluene free has replaced our use of Cat's Paw in making uppers. The odour does not seem any more healthy, even if it doesn't contain toluene I don't think you want to inhale too much of it. It does work nicely, never gums up the glue pot and seems to stick even oily leathers.

Jon

tmattimore
5
5
Posts: 206
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:00 am
Full Name: Tom Mattimore

Re: Glues and Cements

#4 Post by tmattimore » Tue May 19, 2009 4:41 am

The "new" Barge AP does not perform as well as the old it will barely hold vibram products on the shoe. I have had numerous call backs since it changed, it costs more, still stinks and they have replaced Tolulene with methyl ethel keytone. Boy that is much safer, instead of a slow death from cancer a nice painful quick one.....wear gloves on large gluing jobs. All this done to comply with the stupid California EPA. At least the new Barge rubber works. I have switched to a cheaper cement available from ace hardware etc. It is the same formula as masters, sticks as poorly as barge but costs $10 a gallon less. If all you can buy is inferior products why pay top dollar? Not that I have any strong opinions on the subject.
Tom

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#5 Post by dw » Tue May 19, 2009 5:10 am

Talk about the "Maytag Repairman Syndrome"!! This is the first I've heard of any of this.

I use Barge Rubber Cement...is there a new version of it, too?

I do not use Barge All-Purpose, it never was all that great on Vibram, and I hated the yellow residue when the cement dried.

I use Duall 88. I'm sure that it has toluene in it but for some reason it outgasses far less than any other cement I've ever used--that means it doesn't stink near as bad. The Renia was among the worst in that regard. And Duall 88 is clear, so if you don't get every last drop cleaned off the edge of the sole, or you smear a little on the upper, it's transparent. Not making excuses for sloppiness, just sayin'...

If people are really worried about toluene and MEK maybe it's time to switch to a water based contact cement...for leather soles and heel, anyway. Not much remedy if you're gonna work with Vibram except to quit it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

User avatar
jon_g
5
5
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:46 am
Full Name: Jon Gray
Location: Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#6 Post by jon_g » Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:52 am

HIRSCHKLEBER

What is this? How does one use it or find it? Much appreciation to anyone who can answer my questions.

Jon

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#7 Post by dw » Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:24 am

Jon,

Gee, I use HirschKleber and at least this early morning I'm not sure what it is made from. I think hooves. It is a glue rather than a cement. It tends to remain a little flexible when dry and is reportedly breathable.

As for where you get it...I get mine from McPhersons of Seattle, but I note that a Google search will reveal a couple US outfits that carry it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

User avatar
jon_g
5
5
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:46 am
Full Name: Jon Gray
Location: Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#8 Post by jon_g » Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:52 am

I'm wondering what people are using to close up the seam on the bottom of the soles of their handsewn shoes and boots. I've been trying to improve my sole finishing but have been reluctant to experiment. Been using all purpose for this but I'm wondering if I could use dextrine or would it just open up again the first time they stepped in a puddle.

Jon

gshoes
5
5
Posts: 205
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2008 10:41 am
Full Name: Geraldine Rabey
Location: Elgin, IL, United States

Re: Glues and Cements

#9 Post by gshoes » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:53 pm

Hi Jon,

I can not comment on closings of the seam of the sole because I have not tried it yet. But it is something that I too have wondered about. I assumed that it was barge cement. I am anxiously awaiting to see what the masters are doing this with. I have used the dextrine on some other leather items and I was pleased with the results. It added just the right amount of stiffness without the extra weight that another layer of leather would have added.

Geri
9912.jpg
9912.jpg (36.97 KiB) Viewed 4005 times
9911.jpg
9911.jpg (72.95 KiB) Viewed 4005 times

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#10 Post by dw » Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:51 am

I've kind of been waiting to see what others, more versed in shoemaking, might have to say.

Oh well...I have experimented with several cements and glues. Of course, substances like HirschKleber, dextrine, and potato glue are "glues." While Barge, Duall 88 and press cement are "cement."

So, in the case of Hirschkleber, Dextrine, potato glue and press cement, all need some degree of pressure applied to close the channel and allow the glue to set. If you don't do this, the results are uneven at best.

All purpose cements on the other hand do no need that pressure...just allow to dry till tacky and then hammer and iron into place.

Sounds like a "no brainer," eh? but if you need to sand or scrape of a channel that begins on the grain surface, channels closed with A-P become somewhat problematic. Whereas a channel closed with press cement will sand off clean.

Also water soluble glues such as Hirschkleber and dextrine are probably going to come loose and flap around. Many years ago, I built a pair of boots for a fellow using a horizontal channel on the outsole. I closed it up with A-P and the customer was amazed. Months later he brought them in with quite another attitude. the channels were ragged and loose and he said he couldn't wear them like that.

If I could figure out some way to keep the channel closed tight while it dried, I'd use press cement all the time. It's waterproof, sandable/scrapable and strong.

Well, there's my Image...FWIW.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

bootmkr
1
1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 9:00 am
Full Name: Lonnie Smith
Location: Lyons, Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#11 Post by bootmkr » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:09 pm

Hello to everyone,
I have a question, I bought a glue container with the paint brush and a dome cover on it, I love the the container but when i put rubber cement in it the next day it was all over my bench, any suggustion on how to seal it. Here what i've done I took a hot knife and ran it around the edges, I think it made it worse, so please help!!!

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#12 Post by dw » Sat Sep 05, 2009 4:33 pm

Lonnie,

First don't fill your container more than half full. Second when you quit for the day, turn the container on its back, so that the cover is horizontal.

What's happening is that the cement is outgassing into the holding chamber and creating a high pressure pocket which forces the cement in the only direction it can go...out.

I don't know if you made it worse with the hot knife or not. But turning the pot on it's back will help. the only thing I would worry about is that the cement would tend to dry out faster if the top doesn't have a good seal.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

bootmkr
1
1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 9:00 am
Full Name: Lonnie Smith
Location: Lyons, Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#13 Post by bootmkr » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:03 pm

Dw, I have tryed that and still leaks, I even contacted the company and they sent me 2 more and again they leaked.

I guess what i'm looking for is how to seal them.
What kind of glue to use that what ever the cement made from won't eat though.

Lonnie

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#14 Post by dw » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:17 pm

Maybe you ought to post a photo of these glue pots. I use Duall 88 and Barge Rubber Cement in mine and never have the kinds of problems you seem to be having.

Dual 88 is not exactly the the weakest cement with regard to composition or solvents and I just don't have any problems with it eating through.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

bootmkr
1
1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 9:00 am
Full Name: Lonnie Smith
Location: Lyons, Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#15 Post by bootmkr » Sat Sep 05, 2009 5:53 pm

DW,
I'm useing barge too but it that new stuff, I don't like it. Are there different makers of these pots? The ones I have came for woodmaker company that carrys glues and ect.

I'll post a picture soon. Thanks!!

Lonnie

User avatar
romango
8
8
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
Full Name: Rick Roman
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#16 Post by romango » Sat Sep 05, 2009 10:38 pm

I have had lots of trouble with this same issue. I hope to build a nice temperature controlled shop one day. But until then, I work out of my garage where the temperature can swing wildly. This is hell on glue.

If you have reasonable temperatures and use your glue almost daily, the standard glue pots can work pretty well for you. But they don't work that well if the temperatures go too high or you leave them for a longer period of time.

I don't like putting them on their backs because then the brush can get dry and they still tend to thicken up quickly.

So, until I get my dream shop, I just use small mayonnaise bottles that have good screw seals and small utility brushes from the craft store that I can cut of the handles to fit in the jar. These do not leak or thicken regardless of time or temperature.
9981.jpg


I get a little glue on my fingers but it's not too bad. And I like my glue to always be as thin or thinner than it is when fresh from the can.

Marcell has some very small versions of the standard glue pots that he refills constantly. This also seems to work pretty well. But I don't know where to get these in the US.

bootmkr
1
1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 9:00 am
Full Name: Lonnie Smith
Location: Lyons, Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#17 Post by bootmkr » Sun Sep 06, 2009 7:49 pm

Rick,

Thanks for info but my shop is heated and aired so thats not the problem, I hate to give up on these container with out a fight.

Lonnie

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#18 Post by dw » Sun Sep 06, 2009 8:21 pm

I'm not sure what they look like but I'm not certain that glue containers designed for wood glues are intended to stand up to cements using toluene or MEK.

The cement pots I have are German or Danish made and are designed for chemical solvents. They can be bought through dealers like McPherson's in Seattle.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

danfreeman
3
3
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 10:00 am
Full Name: Dan Freeman

Re: Glues and Cements

#19 Post by danfreeman » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:05 pm

I had one of those gluepots (the polyethylene ones with the dome over the brush receptacle)fail--the seal around the bottom, where it was attached (glued?) to the top leaked, from the first filling. I complained, and got a replacement that has worked well since. I think they are still working on the concept.

jask
2
2
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:30 pm
Full Name: jask

Re: Glues and Cements

#20 Post by jask » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:28 pm

I have not had any luck with the plastic glue pots, if the joint on the bottom edge didn't leak then the plastic always distorted and cracked (always on the bottom section..),from what I assumed was the solvents in the glue.
I use a couple of the Teflon coated Atco glue pots and have had them for 10+ years.

User avatar
jon_g
5
5
Posts: 207
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:46 am
Full Name: Jon Gray
Location: Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, Canada
Been Liked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#21 Post by jon_g » Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:52 pm

Having always had great success with the plastic glue pot you guys are talking about (glue staying liquid longer) I was reluctant to try the glass jar type with the brush sticking through the lid. Let me tell you I'm converted. I don't know if it has to do with the glue pot or the simultaneous switch to Duall from Barge, but the gluing area in our shop has undergone a revolution. On top of all that the glue pot stays clean.

frank_jones
3
3
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:00 am
Full Name: Frank Jones
Location: Lancashire, England
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#22 Post by frank_jones » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:20 am

Lonnie Smith

There might be some Colloquy readers who do not know what the adhesive dispenser with “dome cover” looks like.

Image

This gadget was first seen in shoemaking and repairing shops just over 25 years ago. Then it was always called a TS Boy and was made in Germany. In more recent years, like many other things, it has been produced in East Asia and is much cheaper. However, as has been noted here, the seal between top molding and the bottom has become more unreliable.

I believe the German ones were “welded” together using technology not unlike that used to attach the outsole to the classic Dr.Martens footwear. If the East Asia version uses some type of adhesive to attach the top molding to the bottom, perhaps the solvents used in sole attaching adhesives are breaking down the bond. I have seen the German models used in dozens of workshops in a number of countries with no problem being mentioned by anybody.

Frank Jones - HCC Member
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

(Message edited by Frank_jones on September 11, 2009)

frank_jones
3
3
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:00 am
Full Name: Frank Jones
Location: Lancashire, England
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#23 Post by frank_jones » Fri Sep 11, 2009 7:34 am

Lonnie Smith

There might be some Colloquy readers who do not know what the adhesive dispenser with “dome cover” looks like.
10012.jpg
10012.jpg (34.93 KiB) Viewed 4005 times


This gadget was first seen in shoemaking and repairing shops just over 25 years ago. Then it was always called a TS Boy and was made in Germany. In more recent years, like many other things, it has been produced in East Asia and is much cheaper. However, as has been noted here, the seal between top molding and the bottom has become more unreliable.

I believe the German ones were “welded” together using technology not unlike that used to attach the outsole to the classic Dr.Martens footwear. If the East Asia version uses some type of adhesive to attach the top molding to the bottom, perhaps the solvents used in sole attaching adhesives are breaking down the bond. I have seen the German models used in dozens of workshops in a number of countries with no problem being mentioned by anybody.

Frank Jones - HCC Member
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

User avatar
romango
8
8
Posts: 854
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:40 pm
Full Name: Rick Roman
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#24 Post by romango » Fri Sep 11, 2009 9:14 am

Jon,

Do you have a picture of this glass jar type you refer to?

bootmkr
1
1
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun May 11, 2008 9:00 am
Full Name: Lonnie Smith
Location: Lyons, Nebraska, USA
Contact:

Re: Glues and Cements

#25 Post by bootmkr » Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:31 am

Frank

Thats what I'm talking about, the picture of that pot you posted is like the one I have but mine said made in china and they leak around the bottom. Now DW turn me on to the pots that Mcpherson Leather carries so I ordered 2 the other day( have'nt got them yet) they are made in Germany so we'll see if its the one you talked about.

Lonnie

Post Reply