Finishing techniques

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homeboy
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Re: Finishing techniques

#76 Post by homeboy » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:06 pm

What about "Rit" dyes? Anyone ever tried dying some leather with Rit dyes?

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Re: Finishing techniques

#77 Post by lancepryor » Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:07 pm

As noted previously, the edge inks I'm referencing are water based, not alcohol based. For alcohol based products, there is always the many colors of Fiebing's leather dyes, which is what I'm currently using for edge coloring before adding the edge wax/heel ball. Here is a picture of the stuff CarreDucker use:
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See the whole discussion here:

http://carreducker.blogspot.com/2010/11/ink-and-wax.html

Aniline powder is something I'm considering trying. It is water (or alcohol) soluble, and is sold in many colors by folks in the woodworking trade. It is preferred by many due to the transparency of the finish when compared to wood stains.

Here is one example:

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=20081&cat=1,190,42942

Lance

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Re: Finishing techniques

#78 Post by romango » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:28 am

I did a little test where I glassed off some sole leather, put down a coat of gum tragacanth (let dry) then a couple of different dilutions of TransTint wood dye in water.
Then I put a layer of neutral Lincoln wax on top.

I think the gum tragacanth acts as a resist and prevents the water based dye from making a big strike. Overall, I'd say this worked very well. I easily got two different shadings of reddish brown without much in the way of brush marks or heavy strike pattern.
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Re: Finishing techniques

#79 Post by walrus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:08 am

Rick
You can eliminate the line all together by using an air brush for applying the die.That's all I used when I was dying the shoes I was making .it makes for a much smoother application .That's how they die leather in the tannery only their sprayers are much larger.LOL Try it and see.
Hope this helps.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#80 Post by dw » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:32 am

Well, I'll be the odd man out here and say that unless there is a heavy paint job on the grain surface of the outsole (some Italian brands) one should be very careful about glassing the forepart. I don't glass it at all.

Both Thornton and Carreducker say to fine sand the grain surface. You have to create a slight nap so that the dye will strike correctly.

The problem with glassing the grain, esp. in the forepart and esp. on a pretty much "naked" outsoling...like the chestnut tan from M-S..is that it is all too easy to expose corium. If you do that, you'll never get an even transparent finish, as the corium will absorb any dye, water, etc., more readily than the grain.

I once ran across an old shoemaker...long before this became an issue for me...who told me that the trick was to "work clean" and never allow the forepart to become stained. That way, theoretically, you'd never have to do anything but wax the forepart.

I've never been able to do that entirely but the closer I get to that idealized standard the better my results.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#81 Post by tjburr » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:16 pm

Rick,

If you look at the great pdf copy of Thornton, pg. 424, that DW produced you will find a description of developing a mixture of dye and Gum Trag. I'm assuming that is to avoid the fact that Gum Trag. makes it really hard to put dye on afterwards.

I have seen leather sites that talk about dyeing then putting on Gum Trag.

I put some research in as I was trying to improve my soles. I purchased some powdered Gum Trag. from a cake decorating place and I hope it will work since it is supposed to be pure Gum Trag. powder.

Once again thanks for the great work DW. It is so wonderful to be able to point people to such a resource. A side note: I did find it interesting though that my hard copy had it on page 468. I wonder if the page spacing was different between 1st and 3rd (my version) editions or if more content was added. I may need to look some at the content and compare.

Terry

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Re: Finishing techniques

#82 Post by kemosabi » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:18 pm

What is a good (preferably traditional) wax for sole edges after polishing with gum trag?

Carnuba maybe?

Tried to do my homework on this, but so far just going in circles.

-Nat

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Re: Finishing techniques

#83 Post by dw » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:36 pm

Yankee wax is mostly carnuba, IIRC. But there is hard carnuba and soft carnuba and grades in-between.

Even edge burnishing ink has carnuba in it.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#84 Post by romango » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:36 am

I can't speak to following gum trag but I have been experimenting to get a more translucent finish. I prepared my heel sample by sanding then wet hammering and finally wet sanding with a very fine grit.

Let that dry.
Then I painted on a dilute (ethanol) Fiebings oil dye.
Let that dry.
Rub in Sno-Seal (basically white bees wax) and heat gently to get the Sno-Seal to absorb.

Use the horse hair wheel on my finisher to apply neutral Yankee wax. (mostly carnuba)

Finally, finish with neutral or colored Lincoln wax.
14576.jpg


This seems to work pretty well. My theory is that the Sno-Seal penetrates deep and will protect from moisture. The hard wax on top give a nice shine and depth.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#85 Post by kemosabi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:18 am

Didn't know Yankee wax was Carnuba.

Did some more experimenting last night (using yankee) and I'm starting to think my problems have more to do with application rather than the wax itself. Tried using Carreducker's trick from his blog (same blog as Lance's picture from above) of rubbing the wax on dry, then heating with an iron. This worked much better, but I still don't like the idea of having to rub so hard on the leather in order to get the wax to transfer from the stick to the leather. I also noticed that the 2nd and 3rd coats rubbed on easier because the previous wax on the leather helped pull more wax off the stick.

Mostly; I want to know if I'm barking up the wrong tree here.


Thx,
-Nat

(Message edited by Kemosabi on April 18, 2012)

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Re: Finishing techniques

#86 Post by dw » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:24 am

Lincoln is a "fake" or paste wax--shoe polish, really.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#87 Post by kemosabi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:33 am

Got it... Thanks DW.

Here's my process so far:

-Clean up raw edges and finish with 150 grit.
-apply dye.
-brush on gum trag, then polish/burnish the edge.
-rub on Yankee wax right from the stick.
-Iron it in.
-repeat for 2 more coats of yankee.
-polish by rubbing hard with a rag on my finger.

-Nat

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Re: Finishing techniques

#88 Post by kemosabi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:41 am

Rick,
Have you had any problems with the hard wax flaking off; not sticking to the beeswax?

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Re: Finishing techniques

#89 Post by romango » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:59 am

Not yet. But it is very thin when applied with a horse hair wheel. I doubt it will flake.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#90 Post by jon_g » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:53 pm

Nat, if you're having trouble getting the wax to stick on the leather, heat it up a bit, just run it over a flame for a second. You don't want to heat it too much, or melt it, just soften it a little.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#91 Post by kemosabi » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:54 pm

Tried pre-heating the wax with a lighter, but got it too soft... went on like cake frosting!

I'll try again with less heat.

Thx,

-Nat

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Re: Finishing techniques

#92 Post by athan_chilton » Thu May 03, 2012 12:11 pm

All,
I've just finished my first at-home-with-no-instructor pair of Packers (lace-up Western) boots), at least, I'm up to the point where I want to shine them up a bit (the uppers). I don't have access to a finisher, so am wondering what I might do to get a nice gloss, maybe some added depth of color, etc. Upper leathers are black, pebbly Edelman Scotch grain and medium brown "burnishable" water buffalo calf. What would any of you use to finish these nicely?

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Re: Finishing techniques

#93 Post by romango » Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:40 am

Does anyone know how these seems are done in this photo? I can't even tell is they are seams or some sort of raised lines.
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Re: Finishing techniques

#94 Post by artzend » Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:38 pm

Rick

It looks like a closed seam with the top folded over the stitching making it more like a bagged seam.

Tim

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Re: Finishing techniques

#95 Post by janne_melkersson » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:42 pm

I think it is a "rope seam" without a seam at the sides. I do it with a thin rope which I tape to the flesh side of the vamp. It is a method used on machine stitched aprons but on a apron you put one seam line on each side.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#96 Post by dw » Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:42 pm

To me this looks like a technique that we've seen in western bootmaking since time out of mind. It isn't a seam at all but a raised underlay. Like making the corded beading on a toe bug.

In this instance, a simple double line of stitching is sewn through the vamp and through a thin backing leather. Then a sailmaker's needle or some sort of custom hook will be used to pull a heavy cord through between the layers of leather.

When lasted and antiqued this exact same look will result.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#97 Post by romango » Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:44 pm

I like the rope seam or corded beading concepts (same thing?) although I cannot see any stitching (on either side of the cord), which argues more for the bagged seam... although I cannot see a seam line.

I know it's not the highest resolution picture in the world but you can see other stitches.

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Re: Finishing techniques

#98 Post by paul » Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:15 am

It sounds to me like Jan and DW are referring to the same method.

To me it looks like several different seams. The oxford edge around the quarters looks to be turned and top stitched.
The toe cap looks like right sides stitched together and the cap pulled over w/o top stitch.
And the one in the middle looks to be the aforementioned corded effect.

At least that my view from here in Arizona.
Paul

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Re: Finishing techniques

#99 Post by janne_melkersson » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:17 pm

Rick/Paul
"It sounds to me like Jan and DW are referring to the same method."
Yes, I think so
Janne

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Re: Finishing techniques

#100 Post by zach » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:40 am

I just got some of the soft milled veg-tanned lining leather from Waterhouse and it's lovely. I would like to dye it and am wondering what to use. I've used Fiebings's oil based dye on some sandals and found that it pretty much got rid of the moisture wicking abilities of the leather and of course that's something I'd like to keep. Do the water based dyes keep the wicking property? Do they hold fast or do they dye socks? Is dying the lining a bad idea?

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