Bottoming techniques

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#426 Post by dw » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:57 pm

dmcharg wrote:We own an old British car, and the sound deadening used is black tarred felt. You can get this at old vehicle supplies.
It tends to be stiff, so you heat it up (heat gun, hair dryer) to mould it. Just wondering if this might work?

Cheers
Duncan
I suspect, from your description, it's tar-paper. We can get that here in the states too. But it's not the same. The tar is mineral tar and the paper itself would be a little too dense compared to real felt.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#427 Post by lancepryor » Mon Mar 10, 2014 1:23 pm

brooklyn_edie wrote:Thanks to all of you for this exchange. It's very informative. I will try all of these at some point.

Also, as per Jake's and Lances exchange... I did not know that a rand may be attached before the sole. I'd love to understand that better.

Again, thanks to all of you, and DW for starting the discussion.
Edie
Edie:

Here is a picture of a rand attached (and roughly shaped) to the shoe shown above. I don't sand the upper in the heel, because the only point of the cement is to hold the rand temporarily 'til it can be pegged. With the stresses that can be put on the heel when taking the shoe off the foot, the rand is dependent on solid pegging (or nailing, if nails are used) to keep the it and the heel attached to the upper. You can see that I've used quite a lot of pegs in a 7 1/2 inch rand. Of course, the attached sole and the various lifts will also be pegged through the rand and into the insole at the heel.

Image

Lance

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#428 Post by brooklyn_edie » Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:13 pm

Lance, thank you. This is great.

I'm wondering if there are any particular reasons to use the rand in this way, before the sole goes on... as opposed to using one after the sole has been attached. Also, is this a method that could be used on western boots... let's say, to modify the pitch in the heel area?

Thx again.

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#429 Post by lancepryor » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:15 am

brooklyn_edie wrote:Lance, thank you. This is great.

I'm wondering if there are any particular reasons to use the rand in this way, before the sole goes on... as opposed to using one after the sole has been attached. Also, is this a method that could be used on western boots... let's say, to modify the pitch in the heel area?

Thx again.
Edie:

I don't know for sure the reason. I think it makes it easier to get the leather to conform to the curve of the heel, since the rand can be skived before it is applied, and it can also be pounded tight to the upper. With a fairly rounded back of heel, I would think it would be harder to get a thick outsole to conform to that curve at the back of the heel. FWIW, with a very curved bottom -- e.g. with a beveled waist -- I also use a rand/half-lift for the first lift after putting on my outsole. This makes it easier to get a flat heel surface. I believe most shoemakers use a rand prior to putting on the sole.

I'm not sure what your question about altering the pitch of the heel means.

Lance

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#430 Post by homeboy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:18 am

dw wrote:Sutherland Felt...248.280.0450. I think I talked to Phil (ext 22?). IIRC, I ordered F51 at 3/32" But I'm not sure that's not a "compressed" thickness, because looking at a couple pieces just now they look every bit of 1/8". That said, I'm not sure my eyes could see the difference...not anymore.
Dee-Dubb,

Before I buy a large supply of this, are you happy with the F51 @ 3/32"? Thicker? Thinner?

Thanks, Jake
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#431 Post by dw » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:56 am

homeboy wrote:
dw wrote:Sutherland Felt...248.280.0450. I think I talked to Phil (ext 22?). IIRC, I ordered F51 at 3/32" But I'm not sure that's not a "compressed" thickness, because looking at a couple pieces just now they look every bit of 1/8". That said, I'm not sure my eyes could see the difference...not anymore.
Dee-Dubb,

Before I buy a large supply of this, are you happy with the F51 @ 3/32"? Thicker? Thinner?

Thanks, Jake
Jake,

I think it's just about perfect. But talk to Phil and ask him to check on my order. One of my few strengths is that I write things down; one of my many character flaws is that I write things down--so I have notes about my dealings with Sutherland and, unfortunately, they include several different products that I inquired about.

IOW, I'm pretty sure the F51 is the product I ordered but not 100% positive. So talk to Phil, he'll know.

If not, get back with me, I'll rummage around through the computer files and see if I can't come up with an invoice.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#432 Post by homeboy » Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:55 am

UPDATE!

F55 @ 3/32" thickness......talk to Phil. Very helpful!

Jake
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#433 Post by dw » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:02 pm

Jake,

Thank you for that. I'll update my notes.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#434 Post by lancepryor » Wed Apr 09, 2014 4:50 am

DW:

Elsewhere on this forum we discussed using an inseaming awl to sew the waist of a beveled/fiddleback waist. I was looking at the Carreducker blog this morning and realized another reason for using this rather than a square awl. If the welt is cut extremely close in this area (as Carreducker do), it is almost certain that a square awl would cut the inseam stitches. (Look at a pic here for how close they cut the welt in the waist: http://carreducker.blogspot.com/2012/01 ... tions.html). Because of the orientation of the square awl blade to that of the inseam stitch -- perpendicular -- the square awl would be like a knife cutting across the line of stitching. On the other hand, the inseaming awl, with an oval blade tip oriented along/parallel to the threads of the inseam, will likely be able to penetrate the inseaming thread without severing it.

I have never had the guts to cut my welt this close in the waist for fear of severing the inseam cord, but I may give it a try sometime.

Lance

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#435 Post by dw » Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:57 am

Lance,

I am convinced.

However, this is one area where I look to other makers. Check out the feather/holdfast/channel on the Anthony Delos insole posted over in the Cutting the Insole thread.

If the feather is cut wide in the waist, the welt will be well inset under the edge of the insole. You don't have to trim your welts so close to the inseam and can still achieve a narrow, well hidden beveled edge.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#436 Post by lancepryor » Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:08 am

dw wrote:Lance,

I am convinced.

However, this is one area where I look to other makers. Check out the feather/holdfast/channel on the Anthony Delos insole posted over in the Cutting the Insole thread.

If the feather is cut wide in the waist, the welt will be well inset under the edge of the insole. You don't have to trim your welts so close to the inseam and can still achieve a narrow, well hidden beveled edge.
DW:

Right you are. I do cut my feather -- particularly the inside feather -- in at the waist when doing the beveled waist. Carreducker don't seem to do that very much; I had noticed that fact, but then sort of forgot -- I was so amazed by how narrow they cut the welt.

Lance

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#437 Post by Janne Melkersson » Thu Apr 10, 2014 1:05 pm

Sad to say I don't understand how to post photos even though I read thei nstruction! Anyone who can guide me?
Janne

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#438 Post by dw » Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:45 am

Janne,

First you need to know the name and the location on your hard drive of the photo you want to post. Let's say, for instance, it's jannes shoe.jpg on C:/my photos.

When you enter the editing window to post a message, just below the editing window you see the grey bar with the words "Upload attachment" on the bar. Below that the word "filename" and a small box with a button entitled "Browse..."

You need to click on the "Browse," button, at which point a window will open up giving you access to the files on your computer. Open C:/my photos and select jannes shoe.jpg. Click on the button (in this window) that is marked "Open".

The window showing your files on your computer will close and the name of the file will appear next to the Browse button in the editing screen.

Now you need to "Add the file"--below the browse button there's a small window for add a comment regarding your photo and next to it a link that says "Add the file." Click on that.

A new window will open up showing the progress of the photo being uploaded to the forum. Let the upload run to conclusion.

When it does you will see the filename listed directly below the editing window, above the "options" list and next to the word "Attachments." Next to the filename will be the words "Place inline."

Position your cursor in the editing window where you want the photo to appear and click on "Place inline"

The code to attach your photo will appear at the location of your cursor and all you have to do is click on "preview" or "submit" to post the photo.

I hope this helps...it's worth remembering that the Crispin Colloquy has a Test Messages area and a subforum entitled "Photo Test." You can experiment posting photos there all you want.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#439 Post by dw » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:50 am

Here's a couple of photos of bottom work. I was discussing the practice of cutting a channel wedge out of the insole and laying in a filler after inseaming, with Lance the other day, and I mentioned that although I had done that early on in my career, I didn't consider it "best practices."

So here's a couple of photos of the bottom of a pair of boots just after inseaming. The inseaming thread is standard stuff--9/10 strands waxed. The insole is probably a 9 iron and the stitches are embedded in a channel cut less than half the substance of the insole. Yet they are not only invisible they are fully protected. This is not an angled channel but a strictly vertical channel that provided a solid holdfast against which the stitches snuggle up.
DSCF2750_(1024_x_768).jpg
And another as I am about to mount the outsole.
DSCF2753_(1024_x_768).jpg
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#440 Post by dw » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:56 am

And speaking of bottom work, here's a photo of another pair I am just finishing up. I've been experimenting with using heavy shoe lace for a wiping strip around the toe. Many students have asked me how to get rid of all the pipes and wrinkles at the toe. The short answer is that you don't. You just move them out of the way...where they can be trimmed off after inseaming. In the previous post, the boot was elephant and the pipes at the toe were a lot worse. The elephant is much stiffer and the pipes don't draft out easily...as you can see by comparing the heel seats of both.
DSCF2756_(1024_x_768).jpg
And here's a close-up of the toe to show the effects of the wiping strip.
DSCF2759_(1024_x_768).jpg
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#441 Post by homeboy » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:01 pm

Dee-Dubb,

Deem are goooood pics!

Not bad on the bookmaking neither!! :thumb:
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#442 Post by dw » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:53 pm

homeboy wrote:Dee-Dubb,

Deem are goooood pics!

Not bad on the bookmaking neither!! :thumb:
Thank ye, kindly. :wink_smile:
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#443 Post by petrache » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:00 pm

dw wrote:Channel Stitching pt. 1

So, here's a photo tutorial of what I believe is called channel stitching. It is essentially a hand-sewn Blake method. I've been fooling with this concept in my mind for several years and upon seeing the videos that Tim posted of George Koleff doing something similar if not identical, and Randee wanting a new pair of shoes with a very trim look, I decide to give it a go.

I started out with one of my fancy new shoe lasts with the "break forward" hinge (SAS?)
13783.jpg


I used a fairly thin, for me) 8 iron insole and I did not channel or hole it.

After I had the shoe lasted and it had dried, I peeled back the vamp and lasted the lining as if I was going to do a cement sole construction.
13784.jpg


Then I mounted the toe stiffener and re-lasted the vamp.
13785.jpg


I don't trust cement construction and I don't like it. So I did Hasluck's whip stitch variation to connect the upper to the insole.
13786.jpg


To be continued...

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Can someone who used this method ca explain me,please:
-where i cand find a tutorial about Hasluck's whip stitch ?
-which material is used to fill the bottom?

when you stich the insole with the outsole,
-is it real necesary to have a heel seat and not a complete outsole?can i stitch the whole edge,and the heel too?
can i use this tool ,only i will cut on the inside of the shoe and the move will be oposite to what it is in this video ?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_92MrMHXPQ

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#444 Post by dw » Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:44 am

Somewhere here I posted a photo essay of channel stitching using the methods that Geoge Koloff illustrated in a video. Using piano wire in lieu of any bristles but still making a shoemaker's stitch.

Today I just finished channels stitching a pair of shoes using the method that Garsault describes in Art du Cordonnier...or at least as I understood it.

Two bristles, shoemaker's stitch.

In some ways once I figured out how to "catch" inside bristle in the thread coming from the outside, it was actually easier and faster than using the piano wire.

Unfortunately I didn't photograph the process (it was my first attempt) but maybe it I will the next time. Or maybe it would be a good demo at AGM.

petrache,

None of the photos are showing nor can they be opened, and there's no link or indication where the original post was....so it's hard to comment.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#445 Post by dw » Sat Jan 24, 2015 2:52 pm

So...as a follow-up to the post above I'm gonna take another shot at it!

Here is a pair of women's shoes I'm making. I am planning to channel stitch the process in the style of Garsault and will photograph what I can of it.

The first photo is the preliminary step in the process of preparing the shoe for the channel stitching. This and the next step would be the way I would approach a cement sole construction, as well.

The toe and heel have been wiped and the upper pasted down. The vamp is Ostrich leg and fairly thin, so the lasting margin (and a little) was backed. It's thick around the toe. Even so, you can see that I have a half inch or so flat, clear space...no pipes or wrinkles... around the back of the heel and a little less in the toe.
DSCF2822 (1024 x 768).jpg
The next photo is a close-up of the heel...
DSCF2823 (1024 x 768).jpg
And the toe...again there is a clear margin from outward from the pipes...
DSCF2824 (1024 x 768).jpg
The next shows the upper after it has been whipped to the insole. Note that I have not trimmed the toe pipes yet (that's next) I deliberately left them intact so that I could place my stitches in solid leather.
DSCF2828 (1024 x 768).jpg
The toe pipes are trimmed and the shank secured.
DSCF2835 (1024 x 768).jpg
And finally (for now) a 3/32" felt forepart filler is added. The shoe is now ready to have the outsole added. Essentially that's a glue job (cement construction) and depending on the strength of the cement and the bond, the shoe outsole could be then finished off. But again I'm going to stitch every thing so there's another set of photos coming.
DSCF2837 (1024 x 768).jpg
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#446 Post by homeboy » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:07 pm

I know it's Saturday night, but could you go out to the shop and finish your tutorial? ........JUST KIDDING!

Looking forward to seeing the rest of the process. We appreciate your contribution!

:beers:

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#447 Post by dw » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:56 pm

homeboy » Sat Jan 24, 2015 6:07 pm wrote: Looking forward to seeing the rest of the process. We appreciate your contribution!
Well, some do, at any rate.

Thank you, Jake.

Back atcha... :beers:
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#448 Post by creuzy » Mon Feb 02, 2015 10:28 pm

DW, is the next part of the channel stitching series still in the pipeline? I'm not trying to rush you along, just expressing interest in seeing the series continue as I'm contemplating using this technique on the next pair of shoes for my son (who is rough on cemented soles, but young enough I'd like to keep him in thin, more flexible soles longer).

Casey

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Re: Bottoming techniques

#449 Post by dw » Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:35 am

Yes. Maybe toward the end of the week.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#450 Post by dw » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:36 am

Well, the next step is to mount the outsole. I chose about 8 iron for this because I was intending to to Topy the forepart.
DSCF2839 (1024 x 768).jpg
At this stage the shoe could just have the heel mounted and be finished off as a cement construction. But that was not my intention here...I'm not a great admirer of cement sole construction not only because of the toxic personal and environmental aspects, as well as the occlusive nature of the cement but also because I don't believe it is a strong or reliable way to make shoes. My intention was to "channel stitch" the outsole using the techniques described in Garsault's Art du Cordonnier as closely as someone with no French can determine. I am sure that someone can or could correct me on some of this.

So...I needed to trim the sole as close to the final configuration as possible. And the photo above pretty much shows that.

Beyond that I need to determine how I am going to cut the channel for my channel stitch. I could just cut in from the edge of the outsole parallel to the grain surface. There are channel tools that will do this almost without thinking. I could cut a channel vertically into the outsole...again there are hand tools that make this a breeze. And I could cut a channel at an angle. Horizontal, vertical and angled...I have done all three, at one time or another. My personal preference is for the angled channel although it is probably the hardest to cut and control.

In any case, no matter how you cut the channel you need to have some notion as to where the edge of my insole is. If you trim the outsole close...as this technique invites...you can near-as-nevermind guess at where the insole is and be safe. Or you could make an ad hoc bottom paper from the bottom of the last and transfer its dimensions to the surface of the outsole.


TBC...
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