Bottoming techniques

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relferink

Re: Bottoming techniques

#101 Post by relferink »

DW,

Very brave, sewing through full thickness, even if the crape is only 12 iron. Were you happy with the way the stitches laid in the crepe when done? (apart from the medial waist)
Did you change anything to the tension setting on your curved needle?

Thanks for sharing this “experiment” with us, nice to see the approach you take for this. It isn't too often I get to see someone relatively new to shoemaking but technically as accomplished as you are.

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#102 Post by dw »

Brendon, Rob,

Maybe it's time for me to do a little philosophizing again...Image

I've always felt compelled to give it my best...best, not just "good enough." If that means it's harder to do than good enough, then so be it.

My best...maybe anyone's best...can only be defined in terms of understanding. Have I understood the problem and all it's ramifications? In other words, do I know my materials? Do I have a plan to utilize them to the best effect? And do I understand, or have I thought through, the consequences of taking a particular course of action?

And just as important, am I anticipating the long term consequences--how will the technique or the work stand up to normal wear and tear and usage? I don't care for built-in obsolescence...I don't even like the idea...even if the possibilities are remote. Sometimes we have to accept reality--leather is not steel--but that's part of understanding our materials. If we do and if we are conscientious, we try, to the extent of our understanding and abilities, to avoid building in limitations.

I have always used cement on EVA. Not that I like relying on cement, mind you, but there is no real alternative. Here we have a totally synthetic, petroleum derived material entirely dependant on a synthetic, petroleum based, probably toxic, adhesive. Perhaps that is why I don't ever...ever...use EVA on the footwear I make. But I used to use it on repair.

[I wonder what will happen when petroleum based products become so expensive or so environmentally prohibitive that it no longer makes sense to use them? Of course these are decisions that will be made on industrial and governmental levels not individual levels (we'll all cling to our all-purpose until they pry it from our cold dead hands) but it will affect us individually just the same. ]

But plantation crepe is not EVA. It doesn't have the feel, weight, density, or molecular composition of EVA. It is not petroleum based. Rubber cement bonds with some degree of strength to plantation crepe but rubber cement does not form a strong or permanent bond to leather. So says 35 years of experience.

Plantation crepe can be sewn a with a fairly close spaced stitch and it will not cut due to perforation. In fact, I see no downside to sewing Plantation crepe. A little lubricant (such as Lexol) on the surface of the rubber, a careful tensioning of the presserfoot on the stitcher so as to not compress the rubber unduely and it sews smooth as silk. Not brave at all, Rob. I knew it would work from experience years ago and I even made a test run just to refresh my memory and make sure I wasn't deluding myself.

It's not all that hard--no mastery involved.

I believe it it possible...on a personal level as well as on a "industry wide" level...to paint ourselves into a corner from which we can never emerge. The larger shoe industry is nearly there already. If the price of oil gets high enough (it may be close) shoe manufacturing around the world will collapse like a house of cards because it is so chemically dependent. If that weren't bad enough, the corollary is that shoe manufacturing, in general is so far divorced from it roots it could never go back to the basics simply because it has forgotten its roots.

Stitching may not be the answer, or the whole answer...I like the second part of that statement...but cement isn't even close. Cement is an aid--like training wheels on a bike. And when we rely on cement we are like a rider that never took the training wheels off--we get around but we really don't know how to ride...we forfeit balance, if nothing else..

Tight Stitches
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#103 Post by dw »

As promised here's a photo of the bottom of my machine sewn, plantation crepe saddle shoes. As you can see the stitches are not pulled down too tight.
7756.jpg


Tight Stitches
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#104 Post by relferink »

DW,

That's a more consistent stitch than I would have expected to see with the softness of the crepe. Considering the wear on the stitch I would have opted to stitched the midsole and just press the outsole but that's just me, nothing wrong with doing it this way.
Thanks for the picture.

Rob
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#105 Post by dearbone »

7793.jpg


Nothing outstanding,but a Derby shoe constructed (bottomed)in the stitch down method with a little change, but before it goes to the recycling bin of history, i thought i will post it,it is important that a young bespoke shoe maker learns all ways of bottoming, and every method is used for different occasion and different reasons, the hand sewn sole is still more comfortable than the best of sole stitcher.the way this one is made is simple, cut the insole a little bigger than the last,last as usual and mark the stitch line on the upper with a wood stick against the insole as a guide for the awl.

Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#106 Post by artzend »

Nasser

Has that one got the upper wrapped over the insole edge before the stitching? It looks like some that I did once as an excercise. I found it a bit bulky but with thin leather it's probably ok. It looks neater than the straight raw edge variety.

Tim
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#107 Post by dearbone »

Hi Tim,

I wonder, How hot it is in the land down under?
No, the upper is wrapped under after stitching, i cut the lining below the stitch and wrap the top leather to get rid of some bulk.

regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#108 Post by paul »

Nasser,

I like the tought of being able to do all the different methods of construction. A life time study even under the best of circumstances, no doubt.

I'd like more information about what you mean about cutting the lining below the stitches.
Do you mean just beyond the stitch? That's what I'm guessing. Is it cut on a taper or skived so as not to leave a ridge under the thinner upper leather?

Thank you for your sharing.

Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#109 Post by paul »

Nasser,

And it seems to me there would still be something different about the insole setup. Could you demonstrate or sketch it for us?

And how is the lasting accomplished?
Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#110 Post by dearbone »

Hi Paul,

You raised good questions and i will try to answer the best i can,it is true that mastering all bottoming methods takes more than one life time,but if the opportunity is there and a teacher at hand, it is hard not to learn.
The lining is cut beyond the stitch to the edge of the insole(sorry about the wording)but not necessarily, if the lining is thin,it can be skived and wrapped over the insole. The insole is cut few mm(2or3) bigger than the way we usually cut insole for other works,you can also further trim and round the insole beyond the stitch,when the stitching is done. Lasting them is the same i last other shoes,i put my mellow stiffern,paste it and last the shoe using nails or tacks to hold the upper,when all this is done, press the upper against the edge of the extended insole to get a marking on the upper to guide the stitches.
If i get a chance,i will make another pair to show,if not i will demonstrate in Guthrie.

Regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#111 Post by paul »

Nasser,

But are you lasting over the edge of the extended insole? And do the stiffeners go over the edge also?

This one has me puzzeled. Maybe I'll have to wait to meet you in Guthrie, and see you explain it.

Thank you,
Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#112 Post by dearbone »

Paul,

I see the extended edge puzzling you, it freaked me out when i first saw it, the stiffener and if side lining used, all will be sewn to insole and cut (trimmed) beyond the insole edge, hold down the insole when lasing so the upper doesn't pull the insole edge back, it helps to mold the insole to the last before lasting the upper, the way i do this,i put a mellow(wet) insole on the last with three nails holding it and i wrap it to the last with masking tape, skive your stiffeners,caps,cut your thread and come back to last to take the tape out,it will give a good feather line,but you need to cut the insole few mm beyond that edge line. It is really easy and it meant for light summer shoes.

Regard Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#113 Post by paul »

Nasser,

It sounds as if you deliberatly last the lining and stiffeners, and even stitch these to the insole, before you last the upper. Is that right?
Are there other shoe styles you separate the lasting process like this?

Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#114 Post by dearbone »

Paul,

i think we will sort this one out in one way or another before Guthrie and hopefully you will be giving me a demo in Guthrie,that said, I think i need to go step by step here,bear with me, i am no teacher like DW,but let's say you have an upper and the insole prepared like i said earlier,put your skived top and bottom stiffener and paste it on both sides (some of you cement the stiffener)not desirable, anyway you last the shoe,top,lining with stiffener and toe cap over the insole by using nails to hold the upper all around,(just like you do when inseaming the Goodyear welt), the upper,lining and the stiffener and the cap in between are sewn together in one single row,when the stitch is done and the nails out,the upper(top&lining,stiffener and cap will be flat on the ground,now if you lift the top leather and cut 2mm beyond the stitch line,what is under, which is the lining,stiffener and the cap,so now all to be warped around the insole is the top leather. i hope that helped better.

regards Nasser

(Message edited by dearbone on August 06, 2008)
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#115 Post by paul »

Nasser,

I think I get it. All layers are lasted over the insole and tacked as in a channeled welt. And then once it's dry, the tacks are removed and it's all stitched close to the last as you described earlier.
The upper is then pealed back and all other layers are trimmed at the insole edge (the 2mm mark you mention) and then the upper is turned over and cemented(?) to the insole. Is that right?

I can see that this would be a design for light weight summer wear, as the stiffeners and no doubt, all the other layers would have to be thin in a design like this.

You're right, teaching on a key board like a computer is a special skill, and we have several others besides DW who are gifted in this aspect. But if my understanding is correct, you "got'er done".

Thank you for bearing with me.
I look forward to meeting you in Guthrie, my friend.

Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#116 Post by tjburr »

Nassar,

I have been following this conversation and find the construction interesting. I thought I would draw up a few pictures (sorry about the quality) of my understanding to this point. The last picture also has a few questions along the line that Paul was asking in the last post
7799.jpg
7800.jpg
7801.jpg
7802.jpg


Thanks so very much for sharing these unique methods of construction Image

Terry
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#117 Post by tjburr »

Nasser,

I forgot to ask the most important question.

Is my understanding of the technique correct?

Thanks
Terry
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#118 Post by dearbone »

Paul,

You got it,but keep the insole mellow(not too dry)because you want the stitch to sink on both sides,The tacks are removed few at a time as you proceed stitching(just like you do with the Good year inseaming).

Terry,

Thank you for the drawings,i wish i know how to draw like that, and yes indeed, your understanding of the technique is correct,the top layer is glued and covers the stitches on the insole,smoothen it to blend to the insole,The soles are cemented and if done correctly, it will hold for long time,and here is why, whenever the upper is sewn to the insole in this way, all the pressure of the upper is taken by the insole and bears no pressure on the cemented soles, I have shoes i made in this way in 1986 the stitched all there,the soles you might need to replace,when worn.

Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#119 Post by paul »

Nasser,
Again, Thank you for your efforts to explain this style. I'll look for a chance to build a pair like it someday, maybe slippers.

Terry,
A big thank you from more than just me for the drawings. I'm sure it cleared the description up for alot of folks. Good goin'.

With appreciation,
Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#120 Post by dearbone »

Paul,Terry,

You are very welcome,Thank you for your interest,input and questions,It sharpens my wit to say the least.
BTW Paul, There is another light shoe bottoming technique, but i think we will wait a little for that one.

Regards Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#121 Post by paul »

Nasser,

Aw, come on. Don't do that to me. Image

I've got an elderly customer for several pairs of slip on shoes who might benifit from it.

I'm going to consider the style we've been taking about.
Maybe this other one will the ticket.

Don't keep us in suspence!

Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#122 Post by dearbone »

7806.jpg


Paul,

Just remember you asked for it,now your burden is about to get bigger,these type of shoes are ideal for elderly folks,i did explain this method before,but it was poorly presented on my behalf.
In the picture above the round piece of leather between the upper and the sole is strip of leather ,which is sewn to the insole and the upper,lining and everything that go in between and then turned over and the access materials of the upper is trimmed,insole preparation again a mellow insole,trimmed to the last,a channel is cut about 5mm from the edge of the insole,not too deep,the awl goes in through this channel and half way through the insole and through the upper ,lining and of course the the leather strip which is on the top and placed flesh side up,because it will be turned when the sewing(stitching) is done and the thread will be covered. Now i need to go get me a cap of coffee.

Nasser
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#123 Post by dearbone »

Sorry about the size of the picture,hopefully administration can resize it for us. thank you.
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#124 Post by paul »

Nasser,

Nice curtains. And I like the ankle boots also.

This one is somewhat familiar to me. Whites Boots in Spokane actually uses a variation of this turned welt method for their inseam, in conjunction with an outside seam for the midsole, as in a stitch down construction.

The turned welt in your ankle boot apparently is cemented to the underside of the insole and again the sole is cemented from there.

I'm guessing the finesse in this style is consistent stitch placement and length, and fine edge preparation before turning the strip. Anything else about it?

Thank you for adding to the body of knowledge for us all.

Sincerely,
Paul
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Re: Bottoming techniques

#125 Post by donrwalker »

Paul, Nasser,
Excuse me for butting in, what Nasser seems to be describing was taught to me as a norwegian storm welt. I use it on my packers, it is
a very waterproof and sturdy way of inseaming in my opinion.

DRWII, In future I will sign off as DRWalker to avoid confussion
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