Bottoming techniques

[dw]

Nasser,

Interesting photo essay. Thanks for posting it.

Will you "fudge" the top edge of the alpine welt now?

That last photo looks a little peculiar to me...could we see a close up?

Also, that's an interesting style of shoe--it's almost a balmoral monk. And is it water buffalo calf?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[gshoes]

Nassar,

I noticed that your set of stitches attaching the sole comes extremely close to the line of stitches that attaches the welt to the upper. Is this a difficult and slow process of getting the awl located precisely where you want it? Or do you use an awl from the welt first going downward and they poke it up through the sole and fish it through?

Also is this a more watrproof type of a welt?
Are there any advantages or disadvantages to this type of welt or is it mostly decorative?



Geri

[dearbone]

7234.jpg

DW,

Thank you, I run my fudge wheel lightly, the difference in color is due to the lexol conditioner i applied which makes the leather darker for a while, the leather is veg tan calf,the style is comes from my favorite era,second half of 19c America.

Geri,

yes,the stitches are made very close and they lay like two rows of bricks,is it difficult? well,lets put it this way, it makes me sweat in -10 weather,but i found ways of making it easy,ie I sock my bottoming materials in water a day before, than wrap them in news paper,placed in dark spot over night, the holes are made from the bottom,and they must come out just below the top row and in the middle, it is the most water proof welt if it is done well.

regards Nasser.

[dw]

As threatened, here's a quick snap of my outsole stitching...about 10 or 11 to the inch. Done with a square awl and in the lap.

Turned out pretty good although I can't decide whether I would like a natural (white) coloured thread next time or not. I don't see it on high end shoes but it looks, well, new on new boots.

On the other hand, dyed thread is a bit more subdued and perhaps a case could be made that it is a more refined look.

C&C welcome...

7267.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

Very nice! What type of thread did you use?

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

Square awl? You done GOOOD! Great job! Guess we'll be seeing a Landis 12 curve needle for sale on ebay now. Keep it up!

Looking forward to seeing the complete shoe. Take care!

[dw]

Rick,

Despite my admiration for traditional techniques and materials, I am destined, it seems, to be a heretic, pioneer...or maybe "scout" is the better word--take your pick--when it comes to some things. I have a large supply of 8 inch India Blond boars bristles and even some Russian Black. All of recent origin (well, not that recent). And I have a goodly supply of Campbell's #10 Irish linen yarn as well as a box of #15. But, all that aside, I like dacron and I believe that it has a number of salient qualities that make for a very high quality result....in some ways, maybe even better than linen. And, sad to say, I think it may very well be the future...what with most, if not all of the Irish linen mills hanging it up.

I have done welt stitching with linen and will do so again. But I like to know that there's a functional alternative. So, yes, that's dacron...Teklon to be specific. Comes to me unwaxed and then I taper it, wax it and put a nylon bristle on the taw.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

Jake,

Thanks, my friend. I had a pretty easy time with this stitching even though it was only the third or fourth time I've done it...and only the second pair of shoes done that way (first time I did it with linen). That said it still took me two and a half hours to get around the forepart--on one shoe (the second one)--although I was getting faster and more efficient towards the end. But that's a lot better than the six hours per shoe the first time around. In that go-round, I was using linen and I think I had it twisted a little too tight...it kept breaking on me. Geez! I hate it when it happens like that!!

So...no, I don't intend to sell my beloved old Landis "F."

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

Have faith my friend. It takes me a little over an hour to handsew a pair of boots now (only 3/4 welt though). Hang in there!

Once again, that's a FINE job with a square awl. As you know, it's unforgiving!

[paul]

Gentlemen and all others, (please excuse me as I've been reading Flashman. Inspiring, What?)

I just wanted to say as a voyeur, lurker, and sometimes poster(or whatever you want to call it), that I really appreciate you guys posting your experiences and observations, even encouragements. And for keeping these old world quality techniques before us.

I've done my 25 years of shoe repair, and have only just started to figure my way around making a traditional cowboy boot. But I'm challenged sometimes. Like my 317 curved needle! Geeze! I thought for years it was good enough! Well, as it turns out, that's about all there was to it.
And now even after 8 years of useing it on my handmade work, I'm still trying to get consistently good outsole stitching. Especially on box toes!

I'll say this for sure, it's easier to do a really good job on a 10 spi repair job (with the stitches picked), than it is to make it look perfect on a new sole and welt. It's enough to make me look seriously for six hours (or more) the next time I have a sole to stitch!

(I actually do have a boot going for my first practice one when I get to it, someday.)

So seriously, Thank you for posting these encourageing thoughts for our edification.

Paul

[romango]

DW,

I like the Dacron for it's strength. My concern is that it would not take of hold dye very well and might look a bit "plasticy".

In your picture, it looks like the dye is a bit thin, in places. Or is this just reflection?

[headelf]

DW
Is the thread colored, waxed with dark wax, or dyed at which point in the process?

Georgene

[dw]

Rick, Georgene,

The thread is pre-dyed. It comes to me that way--black, brown, white...maybe even turquoise (I know they used to offer turquoise, raspberry, green etc.).

The thread is a medium brown but it is evenly dyed. I don't think that the dye came off anywhere. I didn't see in on my hands or on the outsole. So if it looks thin it may be in part because the welt is a darker brown and also because the thread has a natural sheen that imparts a certain reflection. You'd probably see the same thing with the black and it's a solid, dense, very opaque black.

I did wax it with a white (ivory) hand wax, Next time I'll use a dark wax.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[lancepryor]

DW:

Very nice stitching. Was your stitch line that straight to start, or did your stitch marking help to align things?

I too look forward to seeing the entire shoe.

A couple of questions: where do you buy the Teklon, and does it come on a spool, or is it pre-cut to a certain length? Also, what would you say it is similar to, in terms of plied-up linen thread -- e.g. 4 #10 strands, or 6, or whatever? Although I want to continue to use linen, I too am frustrated by breaking strands, and the amount of time it takes to finish a shoe is sure slowing down my learning.

On a separate topic, what weight thread are you using to sew your shoe uppers? What is a good source for the bonded nylon thread you like?

Thanks,
Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Thank You...

The line of stitching was that straight. Naturally, using the stitch prick helped to tighten things up a little, but I've got the "keep your stitches aligned" bit down pretty good, I think. There wasn't but one stitch--on the first shoe, right at the start--that was twisted off in the wrong direction.

Teklon comes from Maine Shoe and Thread...they've got a website and the addresses, both physical and virtual, are on the Forum here somewhere. do a search and if you come up empty handed email me, I'll dig it out of my Rolodex.

It comes on a spool. I got #4 if I recall correctly which is supposed to be equivalent to 4 strands of #10 linen but is only in fact three strands of dacron. I think you could get the #11 (forgive me my off-the-top-of-my-head-memory isn't all that good anymore) which is actually only seven strands and separate out three or four very easily.

Separate topic: I am using size 46 bonded nylon which can be bought in single one pound spools in a wide array of colour from Goldberg...who bought out Sherman Shoe Supply some time ago. They carry mostly American Thread (that's a brand name) but source from many different suppliers for their threads. I can get size 33 from them and size 69 as well. Both useful in their proper places.

Let me ask you (and anyone else who has an opinion on this) a question...do you think white thread on a natural welt is dress enough for a man's shoe? White thread on a dyed welt? Or must it be drown thread on a brown welt, black thread on a black welt...etc.? For high dress and elegance?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[lancepryor]

DW:

I think that, for a dress shoe, the thread should be the same color as the welt. I guess on a very light tan/brown upper, where the welt is about the same color as the upper, a white thread could look okay, but I would say this would make the shoe a bit more casual or sporty, rather than a true dress shoe.

I would love to read your technique for ensuring that your stitches stay aligned.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

This is like asking a blind man in San Francisco for directions to St. Louis.

OK...understand that I don't claim this is the best way, the way or even a way that you can use...because sure as shooting someone will pop up (and I hope they do) to tell me that I'm doing it all wrong or that the tried and true method is thus and such.

Let's call the thread coming from the previous stitch on the outsole the "bottom" thread. The tread coming from the previous welt stitch will then be the "top" thread.

Feed the bristles in from both sides. Pull the taw and the wraps through so that you have about 8-12" on either side of the outsole/welt. Make sure that the bottom thread is lying behind (closest to the vamp) the loop of the top thread. It may already be there. If not you can get it there. In either case, the idea is to pull the bottom thread tight, from the welt side, while pulling it straight away from you and keeping it behind the loop of the top thread. On the outsole side, keep a little light tension towards yourself, on the top thread. Then snug up the thread coming from the outsole, fair tight and pull the top thread (now on the outsole side) just snug to complete the stitch.

You can control how the welt stitches look by not pulling them too tight...let the bottom thread take up any slack in the previous stitch before current stitch is completed.

That's it. Nothing fancy. Probably heretical as hellgrammites. But it works for me. Nearly 32 inches worth, and counting.

PS. Never drop your threads!!

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[mack]

Just a couple of ideas on this subject,
The most important thing in any kind of sewing or stitching is to match the awl size with the thread so that enough wax is left in the stitch to keep it solid as it begins to wear. The stitch will give an even appearance if you make sure the twist of the thread is good and the threads lay the same way in each stitch.I dont have any experience of Teklon but linen actually absorbs the wax and this is part of its strength,also the ability to make the thread to the specific size for the spi is a fundimental part of hand sewing. If Teklon allows this then it may well be the way we all go.
The colour of the thread is only an issue if the stitches are to be a feature of the job we normally use the same thread for all work( wax can colour it to some extent. ) and colour it with the finishing ink, depends on the look you are aiming for.It's great to see people doing hand work it keeps a tradition alive and that is a good thing.
There are many ways to get the job done,just my spin on it.

Regards Mack

[dw]

Looking for some expert/experienced (with this type of shoe) advice...

I am getting ready to last my saddle shoes. I want to use them for walking in semi-rough country. I was thinking about using a natural gum rubber outsole in conjunction with a leather midsole. And I would probably stitch the gum rubber on, as well.

But I am hanging fire about how to attach the heel. So far I have not seen any really top shelf shoe that nailed the heel stack on. And I would prefer not to have to use, or leave, any nails in the shoe. But I am thinking that if I run the rubber all the way under the heel I either have to make the heel stack gum rubber (a good option/ possibility) or come up with another way to attach a leather heel block as I am fairly certain wooden pegs will not hold in gum rubber.

Any ideas? Thoughts? Tips? warnings?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi DW
First to clarlify is that Gum rubber called plantation crepe? if so if you try to build a heel over it good luck. It squirmes and compresses erraticaly like my spelling! if you nailed a heel on it would soon be loose. Pegs no. The way I have seen them the sole is brought up to the breast of the heel, a solid heel with a layer of same on the heel, 12-18 iron thickness.

Bonding is a crap shoot! Cover mid-sole with AP cement, grind bonding face of the sole material top to bottom to reduce the swarve wave, and press on instantly.
When I bought a pair of those style of shoes in the 70's, slip-on with plantation crepe wedge sole. I walk outside one morning when it hit a thin layer of ice, and my shoes froze to the ice and I did a not so graceful face plant down 3 stairs, not the way to start your day
Regards
Brendan

[dw]

Hi Brendon,

Thanks for the comments. Yes, I'm talking about Plantation crepe. I have worked with it many times in the past but only in repair situations. I have seen shoes with a half inch heel of plantation crepe cemented to a sole of plantation crepe.

Seems like we always used to use rubber cement to bond layers but in more recent times i have successfully used AP.

If I understand your description, you are saying that you've seen shoes with a stacked leather heel on a leather mid-sole and the plantation crepe butted (tightly, I presume) against the breast of the leather heel stack. Is that correct?

Hmmm...yes, I can see how that would work but I am not happy with the thought of that possible gap between the end of the plantation crepe and the breast of the heel. On the other hand, I wonder how much of a problem that would really be and if there are some tricks to address that issue?

The last I am using does not have that high of a heel--maybe 3/4"--so I am leaning toward just stacking plantation crepe for my heels. The stuff I have been getting is very solid, not like the softer stuff we used to see. Yet it is claimed as "natural." I do believe it would stack into a solid heel...how long it would remain solid is anyone's guess.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[relferink]

DW, Brendan,

I would also make the heel stacked crepe. I wonder if leather would make the shoe look off-balanced, too heavy in the back. Could work as long as you don't build it in top of the crepe sole. To attach the crepe to itself, just grind and press. Cement will only make for a weaker bond. Rubber cement will hold it to the midsole as long as it's nice an thin when applied and can be absorbed by the midsole.
Try to keep the crepe grindings from going into your grinder, it will gum up the exhaust fan and worsen your dust collection for a long time to come.
Nothing wrong with cutting the sole at the breast of the heel and setting a leather heel. Build your own heel in stead of using a heel block, I think cementing and pegging that is stronger than nailing. Just make sure you put a couple of pegs in every layer.

Sewing the crepe sole? I can't recall ever seeing that done and I wonder how it will work on your outsole stitcher. I would worry it would gum up as it gets nice and warm running around the sole. I have seen a leather tip set on a crepe sole and only the tip sewn. Aden does that on this shoe

7620.jpg

The clinched nails on this shoe are overkill in my opinion and could cause pressure to the foot as the soles wear and press the nails deeper into the shoe.

Just my

Rob

[paul]

DW,

I'd agree with ending your crepe at the breast of a heel base that you'd build up yourself from the midsole. I'd think a good strong shank would be all the trick you'd need.

I've actually seen midsoling with a thin layer of plantation crepe glued on. Maybe you have too. The idea being to McKay stitch the midsole and glue/press the crepe sole onto that. I've no idea if it's still available from a finder.

And of course, though the look would be significantly different, it has been done
in a wedge style sole unit too. Could that work for you?

Hey, is that Scottish rough country you're gettin' ready for?

Paul

(Message edited by paul on June 23, 2008)

(Message edited by paul on June 23, 2008)

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi All
Re the gum Rubber
DW yes the newer planataion crepe is more solid than I remember it to be years ago. So If its only 3/4 should be able to stack it but don't stand on oil or grease that will eat it.
I would McKay the midsole like Paul said then apply the crepe. I wouldn't even try an out sole stitcher.
Rob the crepe is probably the most annoying of materials to work with. One time it was using the trimmer to finish the sole and small balls of crepe"snot" shot back out at me hitting me in the face. I always wear glasses so not a big deal, but sort of the unpleasant surprise factor, like someone coming up behind you and tapping your shoulder when working on a machine.

One must realize crepe is the best material for getting rid of glue bits, sort of an all purpose eraser. So it does have a redeeming side.

DW keep us updated on your progress, it is always a pleasure to view your work.
Regards
Brendan

[paul]

Talk about unpleasant surprises, yes I'll say! That plantation crepe is a bad one!

In any shoe repair shop I ever worked at, a pair of shoes for such a sole replacement would spend weeks sitting on top of the jack sander, just waiting to attack. Finally I'd get tired of seeing it up there and would put fresh 24 grit paper on the sander and go for it. (I did finally get the feel of cutting it off with a wet blade. But there were a few times...)

Anyway, I'd be sanding away and all of a sudden I'd get punched in the gut! Apparently, it would collect on the frame of the sander, under the belt, until it got so big, BLEWY! it'd get caught by the paper and over the top it would come, just a shootin' out and hit me! I'd always have to go home to change my drawers, I swear!

I never heard any repairman ever speak fondly
of the stuff, except for glue erasing.

But I did love my own in the 70's.

Paul