Bottoming techniques

[nathalied]

To anyone looking for the Textbook of Footwear Materials, I've just ordered one of 19 copies found via adall.com.

Hope this helps,

Nathalie

[dw]

While I'm at it I have this photo I took...Here is how I make heel seats for shoes:

14170.jpg

These start as a strip of 6 iron insole shoulder about 1'1/4" wide. One edge is skived. The strips are wet, notched and bent to the shape shown. When dry they go on a shoe with no hassle. And doing it this way saves a lot of leather.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[paul]

Nicely done DW.
Thanks for the pictures.
Paul

[dw]

A follow up of sorts....

Not so long ago I asked about using felt and pine tar as a bottom filler, mostly because I am tired of using AP to cement the outsoles and insoles together in order to prevent creaking.

I have always bottom filled with scraps of leather. And if you channel and inseam well, leather scraps are sufficient to fill what slight forepart cavity there is. But you end up using All Purpose cement to ensure against creaks. And, for me, the AP is the big objection.

I experimented with pine tar of various forms and various mixtures of tar and linseed oil, etc..

Nothing really gave me the results I was looking for. So I just decided to go with felt alone.

I bought some 100% wool felt from Sutherland Felt...don't have the deets at hand but if I recall correctly it is 3/16" thick and ran about $13/yard for 55" wide yardage.

I am HK'ing it in and as the glue dries simply skiving off the excess. I foresee cementing the welt with AP prior to mounting the outsole but leaving the felt more or less clean of glue or cement.

Here's a photo...

14252.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[amuckart]

How dense is the felt you're using? I'm assuming it's hefty enough not to compress down too much over time.

[dw]

Alasdair,

I don't know. I don't have anything to compare it to. But it is not hard. I suspect is is slightly on the softer side of some industry standard, rather than harder.

But I am not really filling a cavity. Prior to this I was using three ounce lining cow. And that was sufficient. So now I'm using felt that is maybe twice as thick. Even if it compresses...as I expect it to do...I don't think it will make much of a difference.

Only time will tell, I guess. that's what this is about anyway--an experiment to determine feasibility and the best materials to utilize. If it compresses too much, I can switch to a thicker or denser felt.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[rosesj]

What is the problem with using AP cement? I've read this before, but never really understood the issue.

Shane

[kemosabi]

Looks good DW! Very tidy and clean.

I wonder if one could use those old surplus, chopped wool army blankets for this purpose?

As always; we visual learners thank you for the pictures.

-Nat

[dw]

Shane,

Toxic fumes, environmental hazard, seals insole such that it cannot wick moisture away from the foot.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

Like Nat stated......very clean and neat. Keep us informed.

[huia]

Dear DW Frommer,
Do you know where I can I get a last to make a pair of shoes like your Crispin Colloquy posting of July 29, 2011.
What do I call this kind of last?
You and Randee have made a wonderful pair of shoes
Many Thanks,
Sylvia

[dw]

Sylvia,

The type of last is an SES last and can be purchased from Jones and Vining in Walnut Ridge Arkansas.

The model, unfortunately, is proprietary and cannot be purchased without the unanimous consent of all the members of the consortium that had a hand in its development.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[kevin_l]

OK I'll bite on another dumb question.

What is SES?

Kevin

[dw]

Kevin,

Oh, heck...I don't remember what it stands for but it refers to the type of hinge. The SES hinge has the locking lever on the top of the last and when it is actuated the back of the last slides up and forward releasing lengthwise pressure on the heel of the shoe. That's distinctly different than ordinary spring hinged lasts or slip cone lasts. And, IMO, extremely desirable if you're making men' shoes.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[homeboy]

I have a customer who for years has tried to persuade me to place neoprene outsoles on his boots. I've actually been very apprehensive about the bonding. I've tried "sole" protectors on some of my work boots, but they have never stayed bonded more than a few months.

I believe it was Rick that was discussing using a cheap toaster oven to "soften" the neoprene and "activate" the glue before bonding. This is how I proceeded:

Removed the old heels and outsoles. Since the welt was in good condition, I just removed the old linen stitches. All purpose contact cement was used to bond a midsole. Hand stitched the welt to the midsole. Applied two thin coats of all purpose contact cement to the midsole. On the neoprene, I roughened the surface to remove any debris and the oxidation layer. Applied a thin coat of all purpose cement. I then left the boots alone for 24 hours. This morning I applied a fresh coat of all purpose cement to the neoprene outsoles. Let dry for 1 hour, then place them in a cheap toaster oven for 4 minutes @ 200 degrees. Removed them from the oven and placed them on the midsoles. The neoprene was soft and malleable, easily contoured into the shank areas. Used a shank strap to hammer everything down. I will wait for 24 hours to finish edges, nail shanks, and build heels.

I rough trimmed the neoprene with a 5-in-1. Took a couple of the trimmings and bonded them together. After about 45 minutes, I wanted to test the bond. I have to tell ya, I had to really pull to get them apart. I believe Rick found the right ticket for this procedure. By the way, my all purpose cement was Duall 88.

Will keep you updated.

14292.jpg

As you can see, the shanks are pretty highly domed

14293.jpg

[jon_g]

Jake, I'm not a fan of too much cement, but then I don't thin it down any either.

Personally I use a judicious layer of cement, enough, but not too much. When that's ready, put the pieces together.

The key is leaving it overnight at this point to let the cement cure. This was the advice I was given from Vibram and it has worked well for me.

Sounds like what you've done will work well, let us know how it does.

[homeboy]

Jon,

Thanks for the input! Did they say anything about how to treat the vibram? Rough it up, etc.?

I understand about the excessive cement statement. Other than trying to bond neoprene, I'm trying to get away from it as much as possible. But what about those times when you apply cement and it just seems to absorb completely into the leather fibers? Personally, I give the leather another coat in those situations.

Ain't you through with another shoe/boot? I want to see some more pics! (big grin)

[dw]

Jake,

If you're gonna "turn your (sic) back on the machine", you've got to get rid of that nasty All Purpose and those rubber soles.

Seriously, I don't think it is the heating of the entire sole that is making the bond...I could be wrong and I'm sure someone will let me know in a big hurry if I am (and so they should)...rather it's just reactivating the cement with heat.

I'm sure that heating the soles in a toaster oven makes them softer and more moldable, don't get me wrong. But after talking to Vibram myownself a number of years ago they simply said to let the cement cure overnight and then reactivate the cement on both pieces with a heat gun before sticking them together. It's always worked for me.

They also told me to wash the Vibram sole and the Vibram midsole down with thinner (to remove crumbs and rubber dust) before applying the cement.

When your cement is thin enough that it soaks into the leather, let it dry overnight before applying another coat. It soaks in because of an excess of solvent and once that's deep in the leather it takes time to completely outgas.

Just my

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[dearbone]

Thank heaven for making me dislike rubber soles,my leather soles can be heard half block away on the side walk and i like that,I worked with vibram soles, i even curved into them to embed leather insoles, To attach it to leather soles/midsoles, first a very close trimming of the vibram soles,they are made flat and like to spring back to that shape,unlike the contour of the bottom of last/boots,a couple coats an hour apart, one for the first coat to dry well and bond to the rubber, the other to do bonding, I use my inseaming/sole stiching strap by putting it under my heel and top of the sole, starting from the waist which has the big curve under the arch, hammering over the strap and pulling/forcing the sole down and securing the bond from inside out and the strap can be moved all along the soles and force the sole down to take the shape.

Nasser

[frank_jones]

Jake

Great to see you back in the boot/shoemaking workshop more and more!

I am a little confused about the soling material you call Neoprene. Neoprene was a trade mark Dupont used in the 1940’s and 50’s. Based on appearance, which is not very reliable, I think your sole is what footwear people in most of the English speaking world call, resin rubber. The technical name for it is Styrene-Butediene Rubber, often called SBR by elastomer chemists. It normally comes in sheet form but some repair suppliers sell cut castor-shapes to be trimmed once attached.

It sticks very well with Neoprene sole attaching adhesives. There are many brand names but in the US, the obvious example is traditional Barge Cement. It has what is usually called a “long open time”, which means it bonds quite well when it is cold. Open Time refers to how long you have to leave the cement to dry before bringing the two surfaces together. It is normally between 20 and 45 minutes but this can be vary with temperature and humidity because it’s about getting rid of nearly all the solvent. The cement can be left much longer if heat is going to be used. The other obvious benefit in warming the sole is to help with taking up the curves of the boot/shoe bottom.

There is another soling material which has gained popularity in the last 8 to 10 years, known as ThermoPlastic Rubber (TR or TPR). It is mainly used for molded soles but can be produced in sheet form. It is much more difficult to stick. I don’t think this is used much by hand makers or shoe repairers. However, I live of the other side of the pond and might be wrong in the US, so I will stop there.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

[homeboy]

I know, I know fellers! This is my first attempt of placing rubber soles on a boot. But the customer is a good one (4 pairs), and he is getting tired of the cost of leather outsoles and time it takes for me to complete. I don't like rubber any more than you!

With that said, I've always wondered what was successful. You hear all kind of stories.

Dee-Dubb, I guess you could use a heat gun, but this was pure child's play. The sole was like a rag. I've tried bending these soles (just playing around in my hand), and I would hate to try to get a bond in a deep shank area. If you say a heat gun will do'er, I believe ya.

Tell me fellers, what is going to happen when I take these boots to the finisher tomorrow? Will that glue heat back up and de-bond? I bet I have to be very careful.

Nasser, sounds like you had to go through some effort to get your rubber soles to contour. Once again, this was easy as pie. Didn't have to hammer very much at all. I had other things to do this morning in the shop. Came back to the boots after about 45 minutes, they were cool, hard, and stilled contoured perfectly in the shank. I was impressed.

Anyway, good discussion. I always learn something here. Will try to work with them tomorrow. Thanks once again!

[homeboy]

Hey Frank,

Nice to hear from you! Yeah, Dee-Dubb said if I didn't start hanging around more often, he was gonna disown me!

Serious though, I bought a feller out one time long ago, and he had these "rubber" soles (whatever they are) in the shop. I honestly don't know what they are. No Vibram trademark on them for sure, actually, there's no markings what so ever.

Anyway, thanks for the information. I won't be doing very many of these rascals. I like BAKERS from your neck of the woods!

Take care Frank!

[dw]

Jake,

Well, it helps if you can trim them and sew them first--get out your best rasp 'cuz this is gonna take some work.

That said, the rubber will heat up and it will hold that heat and it will tend to de-bond. The best thing for it is to use super sharp paper and don't grind in one spot for more than a couple of seconds. I'd keep flipping the boot over so I'm not even grinding on the same side for very long. Set it down and walk away if you have to...don't let it heat up, that's all.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[romango]

Jake,

I think the oven is a good choice. I've now graduated to heat lamps but it amounts to the same thing. You have to watch out with vibram and other black materials as they will absorb infrared light faster than light materials. You don't want to burn anything.

The bond will strengthen quite a bit over the first few days. So, if you wait a bit before trimming, that will work in your favor.

I will use 2 and even 3 layers of glue on leather, depending on how thin it is. I am very careful to use glue fresh from the can for critical bonding. My goal is to have even coverage, not a build up. It's like you say... if the rough leather is causing the glue to disappear, I think you need more. Vibram will not absorb at all, so 2 coats would be the max.

The Vibram should be sanded to remove any grease or oil. Then don't touch it with your greasy fingers!

Bonding flat Vibram to flat leather should be a nearly indestructible bond. It's when water can creep in that it will start to give way. So wax the leather edges well too.

[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb & Rick,

I hear ya! Thanks for the pointers!