Bottoming techniques

[dw]

Al, Tom,

Al, Are you talking about the Stockholm tar? If so and if you've got enough to sample me, I've got a 12" x 12" sheet of natural wool felt about an eighth of an inch thick. I'll paint it on both sides, cut the sheet in half and send that half back for your evaluation and use.

Tom,

I was thinking of just painting it on both sides so that it would go all the way through. I considered just using the felt as is. But then I thought the wool might begin to get moldy as it absorbed the moisture from the foot. And that right there makes me think there's probably a good reason for the felt being tarred in the first place.

So what I need to do is get enough tar on the fibers of the felt that they will shed the water but not so much that compression will squeeze the tar out like stepping on a sponge.

Probably have to let it set a while to get the solvents to "boil" off, but the only thing that I can see working against this whole bit is the cost. A 12" x 12" piece ought to be enough for at least 4 forepart fillers.

I've used cork and think it is crap...not a really relevant answer to a minimal problem esp. on hand welted work, IMO. And I've filled with leather...which is fine except it needs to be mounted with cement. So I thought I'd like to play with the tarred felt. I never thought it was "all that" in shoes I've taken apart but better to have first-hand experience to back up any criticism (or endorsement).

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[tomo]

DW,
The Stockholm Tar we have here is usually used an an animal remedy ie painting on the soles of horses hooves and putting on shearing cuts on sheep etc.
It's as black as, and thick like treacle. That's why I suggested the Turps plus it'd flash off quicker being thin...

I've got some cork filler here. What I like about cork is it doesn't squeek.

[dw]

Tom,

Good idea on the turpentine. I kind of figured the Stockholm would be thick. Just don't know whether that would be good or bad. It dries out in cuts and on hooves, doesn't it? How long does that take?

My guess (and from anecdotal evidence) is that the tarred felt won't squeak either. I am thinking that it will adhere to the insole and the outsole just by virtue of contact with the tar. It's the rubbing of leather against leather that causes squeaks...that's why Hirschkleber-ing in a leather bottom filler can be problematic (as the HK dries out, breaks up, and flees the crime, so to speak).

Anyone with contrary or additional experience or opinion, feel free to weigh-in here.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[artzend]

Tom

If you glue the insole before applying the granulated cork, it stays put and doesn't break up as easily. It is easier to spread as it stays where you put it. The rubber solution used in the cork is not strong enough to hold together on it's own.

Tim
www.shoemakingbook.com

[tomo]

(as the HK dries out, breaks up, and flees the crime, so to speak). Don't you mean 'so to squeek'?
Yeah it does take quite a while to dry out. On a horses hoof if you pack an abscess with cotton wool and the Stockholm tar it seal the hole until it needs more attention and the tar is still 'gooey' to a degree..
I think it would stay soft in an insole for some considerable time, especially if it was in the thick state and sealed in a shoe.
Thanks Tim,
yeah a friend of mine had a pair of Berkinstocks clogs that he loved. The heel had started to break away so I mixed a slurry of cork and contact adhesive and we spatulared this into the hole, making it oversize. the next day we sanded the cork and the job was done. Worked really well.

[dw]

Tim,

Interesting. Thanks for that tip.

Me? I'm looking for a way to avoid sealing the insole with neoprene cements.

In truth, I'd like to do away with solvent based neoprene cement altogether. Unrealistic probably, but there it is.

That said, I've always thought that if you handwelt cleanly and tightly, you don't need much in the way of a bottom filler at all. In all of my boots and shoes to date, I have used a soft cream cow or the like. If I'm gonna have to seal up the insole with AP, I would prefer to use leather. Not only because it's free and scrap, but because I know it won't go fugitive under any circumstances.

Now on GY welted shoes, cork may be an obvious and appropriate solution...

I don't want to think about it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[dw]

OK...I need advice, speculation, personal and historical anecdotes and/or opinions, please!

Three possible options seem in the offing:

1) Stockholm tar thinned with turpentine. Should dry to the touch in one day. This is an old boat deck recipe. Does it get brittle and flake?


2) Stockholm tar mixed with turpentine, linseed oil and Japan drier. Another deck recipe often called "boat soup." No indication how long it will take to dry although the Japan drier should speed things up to one day or less. But what does the linseed bring to the party? Softness? Oiliness? How will it interact with leather?


3) Black varnish--a commercial Swedish mix of pine tar and Bitumen. Used for coating roofing felts among other things. A real possibility especially as it was used for felt in the past. But bitumen is a coal tar derivative. That worries me and is a little off putting.

Anyone? Thoughts? Pros and cons?

Need advice.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[tomo]

Analine dyes were derived from coal oil DW, not sure if it's still used, probably synthisysed now...

[janne_melkersson]

DW
Stockholm tar mixed with turpentine or white spirit and linseed oil is called Roslags (an area of the Stockholm archipelago) mahogany because the look of it on natural wood is like mahogany. If it is going to be put on a deck that you walk on the linseed oil should be coocked not raw becasue the coocked oil will make the surface harder and the raw oil makes it soft and will dry slower. The recipie is one part of each. It doesnt get brittle or flake

[das]

DW,

Lots of good advice flowing-in here.

I've painted the Stockholm tar from Tarsmell.com on rope straight from the can, and it soaks in and dries after a while on its own. The spillage down the side of the can dries too just on exposure to air, so it will dry on it's own in time. I imagine it would behave the same on other textiles like wool felt, but it can be messy to handle until it dries. It smells great, like the old hand-wax, and will be sure to keep bugs away of your boots too.

Tried old wool felt hat scraps (w/o tar), just HK, and they do OK too. A 1798 H.M.S, DeBraak shoe had a sock-liner stuffed in it cut from from an old felt hat brim--still "good" after all those years.

But, like I mentioned last night, the "tarred felt" bottom filler I have seen/found to buy was not wool felt, it was more like shredded sisal or fat manlla rope fibers, loosed matted, soaked with odorless (by now) roofing-type tar. I'll snail-mail you a sample to see/emulate. I bet real burlap grain bags (not cute stuff from art stores) would be a cheap but closer alternative--loosely woven, not felted.

Creeping off-topic, but since you all mentioned cork filler--I have used both the spreadable cork "pate", and the pre-cut sheet-cork fore-part fillers. I usually double-layer the pre-cut sheet-cork fillers with generous amounts of AP, then sand to the "crown" I want, and must say I have had little problem with it disintegrating and going away. The separable "pate", yes it will turn to dust and flee the scene, but only after 5-10 years under the 1st met head (or whichever head's lowest)--it gives the deepest "foot bed" however. I prefer a thick flabby scrap of veg-tanned belly or other (compressible) flanky leather first (think cheap plump saddle skirting); tarred felt second; pre-cut cork sheets (doubled w/AP) third, and cork "pate" fourth.

Assuming hand-sewn welted construction, thickness of insole/height of holdfast controls how thick a filler you need. For the thinnest fillers I prefer leather always.

In the 18thc shop we use HK only, and in place of AP everywhere. Thing about HK is it re-softens when wet, then re-sets when dry. I just ripped-down a well-worn pair last week made in 2008 for their first re-soling, and there was still plenty of HK holding.

[das]

PS--Shoes creaking:

Since we make all leather shoes/boots, HK only, creaking has been an issue. At my home shop not so much because I use AP there. Solution: roughen EVERY adjoining layer/surface inside. I even take a rasp around the underside of the insole feather (bevel) where it rubs against the inside of the uppers. Tallowing the insoles helps too, and adds longevity by somewhat currying the leather. Filler, shank-piece (we use sole leather), and each heel lift gets roughed-up. Seen 1700s heel lifts where the guy scored the grain side with a knife--bunch of slashing cuts one way, then another series at a right angle to those. My guess, to cut down on creaking noises, increase paste adhesion. But then we do have one 18thc ref. to a customer who specifically asked for shoes that "creaked", so go figure. Maybe some liked it? I've always appreciated a tiny bit of a creek in tall boots--reminds me of the nice saddle you wear under them. But too much, or too loud with every step, is annoying.

Rees (1813) says the use of too much paste was to blame. The paste fails and goes away, leaving voids and looseness. But Rees was using rye-flour paste, not HK, so....?

[dw]

Al,

Years ago, you gave me a 'waxed-end-cut-off-container' made from an old hat which supposedly came from CWF. The felt appears to have been tarred.

Any idea how that was done? Looks like it might be just about right.

Also the quarter inch natural wool felt I have looks a little thick. the consolation is that there is significant loft in the felt...it is not as dense and firm as the felt of a fur felt hat.

[hr][/hr]

Having made saddles and tried for many years to quell the "creaking" of shoes that were brought to me, I am near-as-nevermind certain that bare leather rubbing against bare leather is the cause. Pressure increases the likelihood.

Cement an outsole and an insole together thoroughly and tightly with AP and it will never creak.

That's another

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[artzend]

George Koleff told me that in Bulgaria when he was kid, squeaking shoes were a sign that you had just bought a new pair, and it was a social thing to impress people.

Tim

[das]

DW,

Yes, a "navel basket" those are called in English ("caillebotin" in French)--big hole in like a navel or belly-button. See 'Art of the Shoemaker', pg. 47. We made them out of old wool felt hat crowns, the cheap ones Colonial Williamsburg sells. They're not tarred, just stiffly sized with something.

Bit if you roughen the bare leather, it tends not to creak and squeak. AP is great, we just can't use it downtown--it wasn't invented yet in 1774. They we roughen everything and use HK. Occasionally a stacked heel or heel-seat will creak in super hot dry summer, but that's about it

Our turnshoes however.... We can hear you coming a block away

[das]

Tim,

The old English dictum was: "creaking shoes were un-paid", that is not paid-off yet, as if your final payment would silence them? *hahahaha*

[kemosabi]

DW: Your question got me thinking.

"But what does the linseed bring to the party? Softness? Oiliness? How will it interact with leather?"


Been reading through various Tanners manuals looking for finish recipes. Recently, I ran across this in "Modern American Tanning" (printed in early 1900):

14140.jpg

Looks like there's precedent for using Linseed oil on leather. Maybe this is well known to the veterans, but it was new to me.

BTW: I cooked up a batch of this stuff and it works great.

Regards,
-Nat

[romango]

Nat,

I'd love to hear any other finish recipes you think sound interesting. I'd like to be able to make water based burnishing inks like Fiebings sells. They only have brown and black, which is annoying.

As a former chemist it irks me that most finish products are proprietary formulas. The shoe and boot making community should be able to make at least some of their own coloring and finishing preparations.

Any other books you might point me to?

- Rick

[amuckart]

Nat,

What did you use in place of the burgudny pitch?

[tjburr]

The following was taken from a book that I have been reading recently. It just happens to be one of the recipes using linseed. A number of other linseed recipes are used for making greases.

The book is "Manufacture of Lubricants, Shoe Polishes & Leather Dressings" by R.Brunner. My copy is dated 1916.

I had hoped to get some good recipes out of here and try them at some time. I have yet to try any, so I am not sure how good they are.

The pages below are from the section on shoe polishes. The upper left has linseed in the recipe.

14142.jpg

Terry

[das]

Rick,

Try:

H. C. Standage. 'The Leatherworker's Manual' (London: 1920).

W. D. John. 'The Shoe Finisher's Guide' (UK, 1934)

Both have tons of edge ink formulas, waxes, stains, everything.

[dw]

The Shoe Finishers guide is passing rare. The nearest library (to Portland, OR) that has a copy is the Chicago Public Library. No internet copies that I could find.

The Leatherworkers Manual can be found on Googlebooks for free download.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[center]Little Jack Dandiprat in a white petticoat,
The longer he lives, the shorter he grows.[/center]

[kemosabi]

"Burgundy pitch" seems to be a misnomer as it has nothing to do with Burgundy France... or pitch for that matter. Instead, it is the resin from northern European spruce tree, ranging from Germany to Finland. It tends to be darker in color, reddish brown which is probably where it got it's name (based on color, not location) and in most cases it is only refined somewhat instead of cooked into dark pitch.

I used clear yellow pine rosin and the batch I made is as follows:

1 part Linseed oil.
1 part parrafin wax.
1/16 part clear yellow pine rosin.
1/16 part pure beeswax.

After many experiments with applying it hot as the instructions say, I found the best result letting the mixture cool and wiping it on at room temp. The leather takes on a great finish, similar to kiwi wax but without the plastic over-shiny look.

Google books is a fantastic resource for this type of info. Many of the books are old enough to be downloaded for free without copyright issues. I seem to keep coming up with tanning books as a resource for leather finishes vs. shoemaking books... A happy accident in my opinion as I hadn't considered tanners manuals before.
"Extract of Logwood" Seems to be a popular ingredient in black dye, but my interest in making dyes and inks faded really fast when I discovered that some of the ingredients (Prussian blue for instance) can give off hydrogen cyanide gas. Yikes! However, I'm sure there's plenty of ink recipes that are perfectly safe. I just haven't spent much time looking for them yet.

Hope that helps.

-Nat

[artvanhecke]

Felt supplier:

http://www.aetnafelt.com/

There is now something on the market called "polyester felt" a distinct oxymoron if ever one was. I have found it at Weaver Leather. It doesn't mold like wool felt might, but it doesn't stand up to heat like wool either. Not a particular problem in the shoe world. Under heat, it will get gooey and eventually just melt.

I prefer the wool felt as you can order it by grade (kind of like density) and thickness (even less than 1/8).

I am interested in how the Stockholm tar thing works out, I have a whole gallon of it and plenty of felt.

Art

[frank_jones]

What an interesting discussion.

Several books have been mentioned as sources of information for the make up or use of various substances we use in shoemaking. I would like to add another which should be on the list.

As readers of the “Textbook of Footwear Manufacture” by John Thornton (available in the HCC Library as a pdf file - thanks to DW) will have noted, there is a directly related book :-

“Textbook of Footwear Materials” also edited by John Thornton. This has a whole section entitled “Shoe Finishes, Cleaners and Dressings” which is 30 pages long.

Frank Jones
frank.jones@noblefootwear.com

[danfreeman]

Back to creaking shoes: once you've made one pair, you will not want to make another. It is almost always hard (veg) leather rubbing against hard leather, more common in low-heeled shoes. A liberal layer of AP cement will, as mentioned, prevent it, and tarred felt will avoid it, but I can't find tarred felt, and some don't like to use AP cement. A piece of fabric, duck or heavy muslin, lightly pasted between the soles, will also work.