Bottoming techniques

[tmattimore]

Millions of shoes have been made with poron or other foams for insoles. It is usualy combined with texon or other syn materials like leather board. I have used it on a few by simply fitting the insole to the last and then taking the insole off and cementing poron to the insole. From here it depends on your type of construction (mckay, welt or stuck). IF you welt your insole the poron can be covered with a sockliner before lasting if you mckay then put the sock liner in later. Nails won't hurt poron as much as other foams unless you are using iron bottoms and the nails clinch.
Tom

[producthaus]

So it sounds like it is not a requirement to include the cushioning during forming of the insole? It does seem like it would be easier to trim after the insole has already been formed.

I am just imagining that a gap will form when the upper is pulled over and lasted?

Can you place Poron UNDER a thin leather insole? For example if you had a really good quality insole leather that you wanted to use directly against the foot. I think you would have to place another material beneath the cushioning to accept and resist puncturing by the shank, i.e., :

Note this is for cement lasting.

> insole leather
> cushioning
> thin insole leather
> upper lasted over + cork/tuck
> sole

[romango]

I prefer to put in poron after the shoe is made. If you make it part of the insole, it will deform while lasting and can cause problems.

You can add volume to the bottom of the last to allow for the later addition of poron. After cutting your insole to shape, remove it and get a trace. Then make the shoes. Use the trace to cut out poron and glue it in.

You can then add a sock liner on top of that.

- Rick

[courtney]

So, it seems like I dont need to use a shank with a 1/2" heel but sounds like no one thinks its a bad idea to put one in?

I have a couple fiddle shanks with a convex bead down the middle, does the raised part go towards my foot {my guess} or pointing down towards the sole?

Courtney

[paul]

Courtney,

Semantics, that is 'convex bead' and 'raised part', makes this difficult to choose the right words to answer your question directly. But your guess is probably right.

Try this: place a 1/2" heel base on the bench, and set the shank on it so as to support the arch, as if it were in the shoe, and it should be obvious.

Stick with it friend,
Paul

[courtney]

11280.jpg

11281.jpg

Does this look wrong? I think the shank goes the other way around from the pic w/ the shoe, and from the curve in the unbent shank it seems the raised bead goes toward the outsole and not towards the foot?

any comments greatly appreciated, I want to finish these things someday!

They only have 1/2" heel do you think I should even use them, they will have a thick crepe outsole.

Courtney

[dw]

Courtney,

In the photo of the shank being held in hand, the shank is exactly the way it will go in the shoe. The convex arc goes toward the insole.

If there is a length-wise rib in the center of the shank that should go towards the outsole.

I don't use these types of shanks but I do believe that the forked end goes to the heel. I suspect that these shanks were intended for a pair of womens high-heeled shoes. The shank is forked to allow a screw or nail holding the heel in place to pass between the forks.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[romango]

Courtney,

The shank should lay pretty flat against the insole. If it doesn't, put it is a vise and whack it around until it does!

- rick

[courtney]

Thank you very much Paul, D.W., & Rick.

It would be a real drag to get it all wrong and have it buried in there.

Courtney

[timmyg]

Every shoe I have ever pulled apart has the fork end at the heel end.

[elfn]

I'm hoping I'm posting this in the right spot. If I'm not, please let me know. This post is a mix of stuff but it's the closing on which I'm particularly interested in comments.

I have closed my shoes and pulled the lasts. Today I will take them in to the fellow at Sunshine and have him sew on the soles. He has the machine and the small amount he will charge is, in my view, money well spent. Between us we will consider what I could have done differently to make his part of the task easier. I really would like a welt applied where the outer, midsole and Vibram outsole are sewn together.

As this is the my first pair of lasted shoes, I am considering them *fitters*. After trying them on I am generally happy with the result. I need to do just a little bit of ankle shaping on the lasts, but the fit of the foot is good. They are a wee bit loose and the top of the shoe is about 1/2" too low. Both of those I can change with the next pair of shoes.

My shoe leather arrived yesterday so the next pair will be kangaroo lining (2oz) with a pig outer (2oz). I want to use the same bottoming technique I used this time and that's the part I need to run by y'all. Generally I'm very pleased with it but want your take on what I've done.

This is the end result:

13436.jpg

The shoe looks very short and squatty. My foot is very short (just over 8" long) in a EEEEEE width (right on 4" wide) with short little toes. It's genetic, my sister's in the same boat. Whatever I make and don't want I can pass on to her (blessing) and she'll be tickled.

I built the upper using a single piece of good quality glove leather scrap for the lining (seam down the back of the heel). The outer is heavy boiled wool felt I purchased with the intention of making house shoes. The tongue is a heavy fairly spongy piece of glove leather to protect the tender arch of my foot. I know this is all odd, but for a the fitter pair, I feel no need to waste my good leather just to see where my lasts need adjusting.

Here is an image of the cross section of my construction. I used the shaped midsole (4-6oz with a feathered edge) to replace the heel counter, toe puff and side shapers. I glued the shaper to the lining after stitching a piece of leather (6oz)to the bottom to act as the extended midsole to which the upper and vibram sole will be sewn. I should have barge cemented it. I *will* barge cement this securely in future.

13437.jpg

Here's a picture of the shaper. If you look closely you can see the line of stitching which fastens it to the midsole.

(I uploaded the wrong picture here - see next post)

I don't have a picture of it attached to the lining. I was sure I'd taken a pic, but apparently that's not the case. Not on the camera, not in the folder . . . <sigh> I also don't have a picture of the fill on the bottom of the shoe after the lining was glued into place.

Please tell me where you expect this bottom closing to fail. I've had it on my foot and it feels great . . . light and flexible. Other than the opening being too large, I think it's a perfect light-use house shoe.

Nori

(Message edited by elfn on March 08, 2011)

[elfn]

Here's the correct image

13440.jpg

Nori

[elfn]

I got a couple pictures of the shaper on the lining.

13442.jpg

13443.jpg

It could wrap up over the big toe a little more . . . next time I'll make that happen. I've got one side of the heel where I could stand it to rise up a little further as well. Ditto on next time.

Nori

[paul]

Nori,

I've just been an observer until now, but I want to say first that I admire your resourcefulness.

I kind of like your "shaped midsole". I've actually been ruminating on such a thing for years. There's a Mexican Bota that uses a molded veg form like this with an outsole glued on.

As an observer I can tell you that with this method of closing, on this pair, you will likely be looking at a lot of stress on the upper at the welt line turned out like this. Some of the flex stress, particularly across the tread line, could possibly be reduced if the midsoles are Mckay stitched on first. Then stitch your outsole on a curved needle.

As you have said these will be primarily for light indoor use, and the comfort may outweigh the other issues. When you use leather for your upper, you should get better wear from a construction like this.

It's hard for any of us to find fault, as you are "cutting your own path", and that's a viable choice on how to get on in this world. A thing you seem to be very adept at.

I know we're all interested to see what you come up with.

Remember, it's the journey...

Paul

[elfn]

On March 5 Nassar added a post in the "fitting the foot" forum about a design by Teofil Luzenski that was based on the moccasin. I have a pair of boots (they don't fit but I *have* them) from Wisconsin that uses that closing technique. It made perfect sense when I saw the brag sheet they sent with the boots. When I saw Nassar's post I knew where I'd gotten the idea for the shaped bottom so I can't say this is new territory or anything original, just a combination of techniques and ideas.

I really want to barge cement the shaper inside and out. I didn't this time for fear that I wouldn't be able to get it on where it needed to be, so I opted for white glue. Next time I think I might be able to manage it.

The shaper IS stitched to the midsole. If you look at the picture with the glue spread on the shaper you'll see the line of stitching around the bottom. In future I will have this done at the shoe shop because he has a bigger machine with much heavier thread. I'll get it all scratched up and barge cemented, then take it to him for sewing.

I've glued the outer to the shaper and midsole. I've done everything I can think of to make the bottom of the shoe a cohesive whole. Time and miles will tell the tale.

I was able to pull the last and do a test fit. The top of the shoe is too low which I'll fix on the pattern and the shaper needs to come up higher in the back. The shoe could be a little snugger, but only a smidge. I know how much I want to shape the ankle initially. The next pair of shoes should tell the tale.

Nori

[lancepryor]

In response to some questions from Georgene in Gallery Gossip, here are some pics of the preparation of an outsole for stitching.

This shoe will have a beveled waist; to do this, you must thin the outsole in the waist area, so here are some pics of the outsole before and after it has been thinned.

13620.jpg

13621.jpg

13622.jpg

Once the outsole is applied to the shoe and trimmed to the desired shape, I mark the sole where I will cut my channel; I use my thumbnail and aim for a very small distance from the sole edge, so this channel will be hidden by the edge treatment on the finished shoe.

Here is a picture of the sole, with my desired channel location marked.

13623.jpg

13624.jpg

Because the shoe will have a beveled waist, the channel behind the joints (in the skived portion of the outsole) must be cut almost parallel to the surface of the sole. Also, because of how tight the sole is to the upper in the waist, a sewing/inseaming awl is used to sew the sole in the waist, and the angle of the awl is toward the middle of the sole, so the channel in this area must be quite wide.From joint to joint the channel is cut at about a 30 degree angle and its depth is about 1/3 - 1/2 the thickness of the sole. After cutting the channel, it is opened up and scraped to provide room for the thread; these pics show the channel and the tools I use -- the tool with a square handle is a Barnsley, and the round handled one is a old broken awl that was turned into a channel scraper by following the approach of George Koleff as in the video that Tim Skyrne posted.

13625.jpg

13626.jpg

Hope that is of some interest to folks.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

That's a great set of photos. And a great contribution.

I made one of those scrapers to create a groove for the thread and felt it was really hard to control...even in tempered leather. I went back to a standard groover.

Aside from the fact that I start my channel about two millimeters further out from the center of the outsole...over the edge and in side of the outsole, IOW, I do it pretty much the same.

Oh...well, I do the waist channeling different also. I make my cut about two centimeters from the edge and angle it toward the edge. The bottom of the channel will be in thicker leather that way and when I close the channel I can use a piece of glass to further thin and refine the waist without fear of opening or damaging the channel "cover." A crow wheel over the edge of the channel effectively makes it not only invisible but it will never flap open.

Just another way of skinning the cat.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[lancepryor]

DW:

I would love to see pics of your approach to the waist channel. So you angle it OUT toward the edge?

How do you make the transition between the waist channel and the side cut?

Regarding the scraper, I do tend to use the Barnsley tool more, but the thing about this approach is there is a natural 'bottom' to the channel, so you don't really need to guide the scraper, you just drag it along the bottom of the channel. OTOH, when sewing you have alot less margin for error, since the opening is quite narrow.

Lance

[dw]

Lance,

Yes, that's correct...toward the edge.

As for the transition, well, nothing could be simpler actually, although it may seem strange at first.

You know that with a beveled waist the stitches get longer--five to the inch is the accepted standard, I believe. So when you reach the point where you want to make the transition...ideally one-fifth of an inch from the most forward extent of the waist channel...you simply do a tunnel stitch from the forepart channel to the waist channel. That positions your bottom thread in the waist channel and you're ready to go.

Sometimes, I actually cut the end of the forepart channel cover on a slight bevel perpendicular to the edge of the outsole. That way I don't have to cut the forepart channel much further than I want the stitches to go. I'm still experimenting with that part of the technique, however.

It's all really quite slick and elegant (as a solution) but in no way traditional, as far as I know. We all stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before but I've never seen this done previously, I just more or less came up with it because I was not satisfied with the every other method I had run across.

With this technique I can assure that my waist stitch is in solid and sufficient substance and yet refine/thin the outsole in the waist area, evenly, to right around 2 mm. (I still skive the outsole in the waist as you've illustrated above.)

These are not a great photos in terms of sharpness but I think you can see a little better what is going on...

13628.jpg

13629.jpg

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on April 21, 2011)

[danfreeman]

Thanks so much, Lance. I have only in the last few years started making beveled waists, and handsewing soles, making stitched seats in which the stitches disappear, etc., at the request of a few clients, whom I cursed at first. I had thought hs welts and leather soles were the end of perfection--I knew about those few handmade English shoes I'd seen, and considered them overrefined--because I couldn't duplicate them. Nor can I yet compare with the really good ones. But learning, bit by bit, continually, is what keeps the work fresh for me. Golding and Thornton, Plucknett and Devlin offer the framework. Resoling a few pairs of good, 1950's Lobb shoes was educational. But this fully up-to-date description from Lance is the best type of help short of being there. Thank you, Lance.

My only slim input would be that I've found the steeper angle, about 50 deg, to work best when cutting the stitching channel in the outsole, changing of course in the waist, where I get nervous; though less so, now. Your description of skiving the sole in the waist was right on--I note the non-gradual transition, which looks best when finished.

[1947redhed]

Thanks Lance and DW you're confirming how I thought you were doing it. Hate to think the knife isn't sharp enough or hand steady enough not to slice off that thin flap of leather. You're cutting the flap and channel into damp leather, correct?

[dw]

Georgene,

I am...and by the looks of things, Lance is, as well.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[goatman]

Lance, THX for these pix. they have answered a lot of questions for me. Now, if I can just put it into practice! lol

[jesselee]

Lance,

Sweet work!

Cheers,

JesseLee

[dw]

James Carreducker has a really interesting technique on his blog for bottoming slippers. I've never seen it before.

CarreduckerBlog 27 May 2011

He adds and changed the blog every week so get it while it's fresh meat.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member