Closing techniques

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Re: Closing techniques

#326 Post by artzend » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:31 pm

Terry

Normally an overlap seam is not used as a backseam, but I used it when closing elastic side boots on a flatbed, it was the last bit closed, and just glued, no stitching. When in doubt use a closed backseam, it's ok. I don't think the thread is a problem with a closed backseam.

Tim

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Re: Closing techniques

#327 Post by marleneg » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:08 am

Hello Everybody!

I am makings womens shoes, right know I have question on closing the upper:
How is a suture like the following made? The seam is so close to the edge, maybe 1 or 2 mm. Is it only possible in industrial production or also by hand sewing. I am using a repair machine though a german Adler 30-1.

image of the seam: \image {seam}

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Re: Closing techniques

#328 Post by marleneg » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:21 am

her is the pic of the seam:
13937.jpg
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Re: Closing techniques

#329 Post by dearbone » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:05 am

Marlene,

An industrial sewing machine with a wheel (not walking foot)with a small needle will sew close to the edge like your picture above,sewing 1mm or more from the edge is the normal in shoe/boot sewing.

Nasser

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Re: Closing techniques

#330 Post by chuck_deats » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:26 am

Marlene,
A well adjusted single foot (not forked) on a walking foot machine will allow you to see what you are doing and do almost as well. Agree with Nasser, roller foot and bottom feed is probably better.
Chuck

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Re: Closing techniques

#331 Post by marleneg » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:24 pm

I was using a walking forked foot Image After reading your posting, I now know what to change! I will first try a single foot and when I have enough money I will go for a post bed with a roller wheel!!
Thank you very much for helping!

Marlene

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Re: Closing techniques

#332 Post by rosesj » Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:34 pm

What is being done in these videos?

He has the vamp of the shoe finished and is 'lasting' it, however the counter, tongue, etc are not attached. The video, and the 'following' video pick up with the upper closed and being fully lasted.

What is the purpose of this? Is this 'springing' the vamp prior to closing? I am unsure what 'springing' actually is...

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Re: Closing techniques

#333 Post by dw » Sat Oct 08, 2011 5:50 am

Shane,

I don't think this is a common approach for closing. That said, I have seen...somewhere...photos of shoes being assembled on the last.

I am not sure if this is related or not but theoretically if the patterns are designed on the last and we assemble them flat, some distortion is introduced. So putting the components together on the last simply returns them to the original shape and position and preserves all the design considerations.

In other words, the quarters counters and vamps are tacked (?) to the last in the exact position that they were designed to be in and each component then glued into place. After which these pieces are sewn together.

Certainly doing it this way would reintroduce that three dimensionality that we would want to see, as well as right and left. And there could be no mistake about how and where each piece would lie. Toe medallions would always be centered, for instance. That said I have not yet tried it but it is percolating in the back of my mind.

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Re: Closing techniques

#334 Post by rosesj » Sun Oct 09, 2011 9:42 am

What is 'springing' the vamp?

I have read this as an option for some, rather than crimping. However, I have never found an actual explanation of the process and the thinking behind it.

Is it an alternative to crimping for finished leathers which might otherwise loose the finish secondary to soaking?

While I was at the Roundup, I saw some beautiful leather, but when I spoke with the vendor, they all said that there is a good chance that the finish would be lost if you got it wet to any significant degree. They said that perhaps if you carefully sprayed the flesh side without completely soaking the leather, you could maintain it. This was typically the shiney finish on Ostrich and Gator. I noticed that most of the boots I see are made with 'matte' finish in both of these leathers. Is this loss of finish the reason?

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Re: Closing techniques

#335 Post by dw » Sun Oct 09, 2011 10:37 am

I am not sure what "springing" is, myownself. It has been discussed here in detail and I know that it is a method for adjusting the vamp such that it fits on the last better than if it were not adjusted.

Call it a mental block but I've never been able to understand the why's and wherefores. It seems a little arbitrary to me.

That said, I crimp boot vamps every time and shoe vamps most of the time. I do think crimping addresses many of the same issues that springing seeks to remedy and perhaps a bit more controllably.

But the point is that since I crimp I don't see the problems that others see. I've never had a shoe vamp bunch up at the vamp point, for instance, much less not be able to draft those pipes and wrinkles out.

As far as crimping ostrich and other leathers...well yes...you always lose some finish even if it is only a the clear coat of wax that the hide came with.

You must be prepared to replace that finish or settle for a matte finish.

Some leathers, however are even more delicate, and especially if they are not struck through, the colour may come off during crimping revealing a lighter colour underneath. Crimping involves rubbing and chasing pipes and wrinkles, or hammering (in the case of "string" theory).

So rub-off is a very real possibility and an indication that you might want to avoid such leathers. On the other hand I regularly pre-crimp inside-out, especially with full-cuts, so that I'm chasing on the flesh side rather than on the grain and finished side. This is not a 100% solution but it works more often than not.

Most contemporary gator is matte finished by default.

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Re: Closing techniques

#336 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:17 am

I've been forging ahead on my first try-this-at-home pair of Packer style boots...and have encountered a problem & made a mess I wasn't expecting. I'm hoping somebody here has a suggestion I haven't considered:

It seems that my post machine (Consew) just can't handle the thicknesses of leather it encountered when I started attaching my quarters to the vamp/tongue assembly. Stubbornly I kept on sewing...with the resulting stitches far too varied and ugly to keep. So I picked all of them out. Now I have quarters with visible lines of holes from those stitches. I can't just make up a fancy ornament piece and sew it over that place--that would look nice--but I can't do it on the machine. Is this a solution? Should I hand sew a strip on to hide and protect the holes, and make sure to sew with bigger stitches?

And what recommendations do you have for a post machine that can handle the work? It isn't as if I didn't skive or whatever...the leather isn't terribly thick, either. (DW if you are reading this, the leather is as close to what we made my pull on boots out of, as I could get, and you know that wasn't horribly thick, neither the linings nor the water buffalo calf uppers...)

I am NOT going to abandon these boots halfway through. Can't afford it, and they look nice so far, so I want to conceal or solve this problem somehow & keep going.

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Re: Closing techniques

#337 Post by dw » Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:58 pm

Athan,

This is a problem when making with that kind of closed tongue.

Although we did it for years with a Singer 136wnnn, it's also one of the reasons we bought the Pfaff 491.

And why we generally use a soft garment cow for tongues.

Sew it by hand. Even some commercial outfits do.

In the future you will know to reduce substance and where.

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Re: Closing techniques

#338 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:19 pm

Thanks, DW--I had just decided there wasn't anything else I could reasonably do. Stitch size won't match what is already on the quarter (eyelet lines), that's beyond my hand sewing skill at present, but if all 4 quarter-vamp joins are done the same way it'll serve.

Guess I best start looking for a better post machine!

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Re: Closing techniques

#339 Post by delormea » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:46 pm

Hi there,
This is my first real post on this board, aside from my introduction post.
I am currently working on making a hung or bag lining for a pair of derby shoes. I am having trouble wrapping my brain around how to make a pattern for the lining from my existing standard. I understand that I have to reduce the backline of the standard to allow for the heel stiffener to be inserted. I am working from Golding I. On page 86 there is shown two photos: one of the quarter lining (not reduced on the back line), and one of the vamp lining. On the quarter lining it mentions a slit to allow the closer to fit the lining under the tab? What is the "tab" being mentioned. Does this apply to a hung lining? And is this related to the set of stitching that I see on many derby uppers, that I have circled in the photo below?
15028.jpg
15028.jpg (48 KiB) Viewed 1403 times

Does the quarter lining follow under the vamp completely, or does it follow under the vamp and is then slit so that it can go over the vamp at the facings? Sorry if this question isn't very clear.
I've tried my best to make my question clear...If I haven't succeeded let me know and I can try and take a photo of my upper and lay out my confusion more clearly.

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Re: Closing techniques

#340 Post by dlskidmore » Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:05 pm

I'm not the one to answer about styles, but the stitching you circled looks like stress relief stitching for the corner there. If the lacing is pulled tight and the shape of the foot pulls the lacing tab backwards, there will be a lot of stress there. The perpendicular stitches strengthen that corner.

You can see here that stress relief stitching is common even in unlined shoes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_classic_Black_pair_of_Converse_All_Stars_res ting_on_the_Black_%26_White_Ed._Shoebox_(1998-2002).JPG
(In this case they did an L shaped stress relief stitch.)

And there may be a fancier name for that. I'm just a seamstress and moccasin maker, not a real cordwainer yet.

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Re: Closing techniques

#341 Post by artzend » Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:21 pm

Aaron

You need to have a slit in the quarter lining at the stay stitch because that is where the lining drops away from the quarters and goes under the vamp edge.

The vamp lining is only held to the vamp around the tongue, where it is stitched 5 mm in from the edge, then turned over and trimmed to the stitch line. This is so there isn't a large, sharp edge, to dig into the foot or show on the upper.

For the back of the quarters, come in 2mm at the topline, 4mm about halfway between the topline and the feather edge, then 7mm at the bottom. You can join the top two marks with a straight line and then curve from there to the bottom mark. That means you can have a fold at the top of the back, so there is nothing to rub, and only a small seam at the seat. If doing this, add 2mm stitch allowance at the bottom of the inverted V and taper that to nothing at the top. Stitch normally from the top (narrow end of the inverted V)to the bottom, using the curve as a guide.

If you want to break up the pieces a bit, then put a seam about 1/2 way along the quarter.

Tim
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Re: Closing techniques

#342 Post by delormea » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:01 pm

Tim, that is exactly the description I was looking for. Exactly.
I love being able to talk to the pros and get advice. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I hope to be adding your book to my arsenal soon.
Most thanks...but likely more questions to come soon as I jump in to bottoming.
Aaron Delorme

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Re: Closing techniques

#343 Post by delormea » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:07 pm

And here come's the next question already.
When clicking the lining is it best to have the direction of the leather's stretch running the length of the lining, or perpendicular to the length?

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Re: Closing techniques

#344 Post by dw » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:37 pm

For every recommendation for clicking it one way you'll find someone else who has good reason to click the other way.

Here's my take...if you cut your vamps or vamp linings tight to the toe (with the stretch running across the vamp or vamp lining) the shoes or boots will be more likely to walk out of shape or walk over. Further, if you "hoist" (last seats up) and the vamp is cut tight to the toe, it makes hoisting a little more problematic--there may not be enough give in the leather to hoist without causing distortion or even damage to the leather.

Cut your vamps tight to the side and the shoe will retain shape better. And since I always last seats up I feel a little easier knowing that there's a little give in the leather when I reseat the last.

YMMV...just my Image

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Re: Closing techniques

#345 Post by delormea » Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:58 pm

That makes my decision fairly easy. Try one way, then the next pair try another. Learn what works best for me.
Thanks all.

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Re: Closing techniques

#346 Post by artzend » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:12 pm

Aaron and DW

I always cut uppers and linings tight to toe. If you cut the vamps sideways you can't control the stretch and it is possible to have two different shaped vamps.

If you are worried about sideways stretch then use side linings, but if you have cut your patterns properly the idea of not having enough material to pull over the toe is probably irrelevant. Hoisting the uppers on the last should not make any difference really. At least with shoes.

Tim

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Re: Closing techniques

#347 Post by dw » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:04 am

Tim and Aaron,

As I said..."good reason to click the other way".

I do use sidelinings on shoes...I would almost feel a shoe wasn't made properly without them.

That said, consider this...one way or the other, in one direction or the other, you're going to have stretch in the vamps and vamp linings. If cutting tight to the toe reduces distortion in one direction, it opens up the possibility of distortion in the other.

When you last you have control of that stretch. For instance, you might pull the vamp harder on one shoe than the other. In doing so, you are, as Tim suggests, going to either introduce or diminish distortion. That's where the element of control comes into play--you can see what is happening as you last the shoe and make adjustments accordingly. Lasting is not just pulling the leather tight to the last, end of story. It is controlling the way the leather is pulled tight to the last.

Once the shoe is made and is being worn, however, your control is nil. The foot will do as it will do. A tendency to pronate or supinate, even if slight, will push the foot out the side of the shoe and over the welt. Any anomaly in gait will likewise strain the shoe's ability to retain its shape.

On the other hand, if fitted properly, there is no pressure on the shoe to distort lengthwise.

Of course, any distortion that the foot is prone to, will eventually occur no matter which way the vamps are cut but the use of sidelinings, as Tim suggests, and a judicious layout of the patterns can go a long way towards ameliorating the problem.

Again, your mileage may vary but there is a reason...a rationale...for doing it either way. That said, I suspect that there is no clear and decisive argument to made one way or the other...at least none I've heard of.

PS...on cutting and mounting linings...it is almost a golden rule that when you line a shoe or boot, any exposed edges, such as where the quarter lining overlays the vamp lining, be towards the toe of the shoe. This applies to derbies as well as oxfords.

The rationale is simple: as the foot goes into the shoe it will tend to push those exposed edges in front of itself and flatten them. Coming out the foot will tend to pull those edges with it and possibly roll that edge back. But by that time the foot is out of the shoe. If the edges are positioned so that they face the heel of the shoe, they will roll up as the foot enters the shoe and be uncomfortable. Quarters over vamps...always.

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(Message edited by dw on November 20, 2012)

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Re: Closing techniques

#348 Post by delormea » Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:57 am

So many questions being answered.
With my little (almost non-existant) experience, cutting tight to the side makes sense to me. Which, as DW said, will help prevent walking over. The shoe will have less of a tendency to stretch lengthwise when worn, and if I draft that stretch out and last seats up I can keep a nice taught top line. Hopefully.
Like I said, i'll try a few each way and see which works for me as they wear. I don't necessarily want to guy for the easiest to last...I want to go for the best to wear. And as Tim says, side linings will go a long way to uniformity and wearability.
Aaron Delorme

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Re: Closing techniques

#349 Post by farmerfalconer » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:50 pm

How do I do the seam u0 the side of a boot like these?
15150.jpg


is it like this?
15149.jpg


A=Upper
B=piping
C=Sewing
Hope the drawing is clear enough.

Thanks,
Cody

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Re: Closing techniques

#350 Post by romango » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:07 pm

Cody,

Yes. Your drawing is correct. This is normally done with a straight needle stitched but I do it with thonging chisels and hand thread, as I don't have a straight needle stitcher (yet).

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