ED,
All options and considerations are welcome anytime, and surly the cat can be skined many ways,but I am an old time skiner,and i say as my teacher said, Try it my way and if you don't like it, go back to your way.
Closing techniques
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
I thought i will post these derby boot templates that came from a Toronto high school when were teaching shoe making and stoped in the 1950s.
It is 2mm cabdboard with soft brass covering the edge to protect it for continuing use and works well to mark the fold line,the set of template came with their set of last,the last you see is 6 and the temlpate is for size 10(the 10 I have added leather on) My friend Rene Hackstetter donated those templates and lasts to me,when he was teaching a leather course at that school in the 80s
Regards Nasser
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Closing techniques
Nasser V
Nice collection! Sure good they didn't hit the trash bin and some one realized the value not to mention archive value. To bad they don't teach shoemaking anymore.
To All
Lacing Stay I have been asked about this and I am sorry to say I am a bit brain short on this one! Help!! Some one mumbled velcro.
Please and and all reply pic or drawing would be appreciated.
Regards
Brendan
Nice collection! Sure good they didn't hit the trash bin and some one realized the value not to mention archive value. To bad they don't teach shoemaking anymore.
To All
Lacing Stay I have been asked about this and I am sorry to say I am a bit brain short on this one! Help!! Some one mumbled velcro.
Please and and all reply pic or drawing would be appreciated.
Regards
Brendan
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
Brendan,
Thank you,and yes indeed the lot could have been gone to the trash bin,if it wasn't for Rene to get them to me(asked the principal first)as for teaching shomaking in schools,you know the education system in Canada today as well as i do,if not more,but few years back i thought of starting a shoemaking school in Toronto and had the people to teach the classes,but being a first generation Canadian with little roots and backing,i coudn't proceed.
In regard to your lacing stay,please expand on the question,I am not sure what you are asking.
Regards Nasser
Thank you,and yes indeed the lot could have been gone to the trash bin,if it wasn't for Rene to get them to me(asked the principal first)as for teaching shomaking in schools,you know the education system in Canada today as well as i do,if not more,but few years back i thought of starting a shoemaking school in Toronto and had the people to teach the classes,but being a first generation Canadian with little roots and backing,i coudn't proceed.
In regard to your lacing stay,please expand on the question,I am not sure what you are asking.
Regards Nasser
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joe_hall
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- Full Name: T. J. Hall, III
Re: Closing techniques
Re: Brogueing Punches
All,
I have been trying to obtain some brogueing punches. I did not want the Tandy punches. I have used them and was not impressed. I have tried several sources attempting to place an order for the Gotz single punches ( 787 010 99 - Punch Holder & 797 006 - Punches ) without success.
I searched the internet and found punches manufactured by C & K Products which looked promising. This company appears to make a variety of punches for the manufacturing sector. See their website at - http://www.candkpunches.com/products/productspecs/threaded.html
The company only sells to wholesalers, but they put me in contact with Western Supplies Co. in St. Louis - 314-531-0100. Western will sell the punch holder (for the small size punches #'s 1-11) for $13.71 and the punches for $7.19@. I ordered the holder and five of the punches. They work like a dream.
All,
I have been trying to obtain some brogueing punches. I did not want the Tandy punches. I have used them and was not impressed. I have tried several sources attempting to place an order for the Gotz single punches ( 787 010 99 - Punch Holder & 797 006 - Punches ) without success.
I searched the internet and found punches manufactured by C & K Products which looked promising. This company appears to make a variety of punches for the manufacturing sector. See their website at - http://www.candkpunches.com/products/productspecs/threaded.html
The company only sells to wholesalers, but they put me in contact with Western Supplies Co. in St. Louis - 314-531-0100. Western will sell the punch holder (for the small size punches #'s 1-11) for $13.71 and the punches for $7.19@. I ordered the holder and five of the punches. They work like a dream.
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dw
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Re: Closing techniques
Here's a technique question...closing technique...
I am trying to do a "butt" seam--maybe a little like it would have been done two-three hundred years ago. I want to join a vamp with a quarter...only using modern materials, not 8-10 ounce veg tan. I think I can do the sewing fine but I would like to add a strip of reinforcing tape behind the seam so the seam won't open up during lasting.
Now I know that some shoes, such as "split toes," are done with techniques similar to this, so I am hoping that those of you who are more familiar with shoemaking techniques can give me pointers.
I tried butting my seams together and then adding the tape on the back. At which point I used a sewing machine to sew a line of stitching at about 6spi on either side of the butted seam and through the nylon tape. Then I hand stitched the butt seam using the same colour thread at about 6spi and right along the machine stitching. That worked OK, with the hand stitching laying over the machine stitching and sort of camouflaging the fact that the machine stitching was even there. The only problem was that the machine stitching on one side of the seam didn't always align, stitch for stitch, with the machine stitching on the other side. So when I hand stitched, I was always in danger of cutting the machine stitch at one point or another. I was using a fine awl and bristles.
But I got to wondering if I might not be better off to hand stitch the butt seam first and then run a line of same colour machine stitching tight into the hand stitching. Since the hand stitching would be substantially heavier thread there would be no danger of cutting it.
Anyway, I'm still experimenting but acknowledge the possibility that I'm entirely off on the wrong foot and would appreciate any advice or help I can get.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I am trying to do a "butt" seam--maybe a little like it would have been done two-three hundred years ago. I want to join a vamp with a quarter...only using modern materials, not 8-10 ounce veg tan. I think I can do the sewing fine but I would like to add a strip of reinforcing tape behind the seam so the seam won't open up during lasting.
Now I know that some shoes, such as "split toes," are done with techniques similar to this, so I am hoping that those of you who are more familiar with shoemaking techniques can give me pointers.
I tried butting my seams together and then adding the tape on the back. At which point I used a sewing machine to sew a line of stitching at about 6spi on either side of the butted seam and through the nylon tape. Then I hand stitched the butt seam using the same colour thread at about 6spi and right along the machine stitching. That worked OK, with the hand stitching laying over the machine stitching and sort of camouflaging the fact that the machine stitching was even there. The only problem was that the machine stitching on one side of the seam didn't always align, stitch for stitch, with the machine stitching on the other side. So when I hand stitched, I was always in danger of cutting the machine stitch at one point or another. I was using a fine awl and bristles.
But I got to wondering if I might not be better off to hand stitch the butt seam first and then run a line of same colour machine stitching tight into the hand stitching. Since the hand stitching would be substantially heavier thread there would be no danger of cutting it.
Anyway, I'm still experimenting but acknowledge the possibility that I'm entirely off on the wrong foot and would appreciate any advice or help I can get.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
DW,
I tend to go with your second thought,which is to stitch the butt seam first,You may not find it necessary to back the seam with tape,I use thin leather and short skive the sides to back seams.
Now, since we are dicussing uppers hand seams,I saw a lobb boots, i think it was made by the Polish shoemaker,it was an invisible stitch on the throat of the boots,where top of the vamp is sewn to the leg part,there you see a line,but not the thread and it was a marvel to look at,I wonder if anyone has seen this technique or knows how to do it?
my two cents worth.
I tend to go with your second thought,which is to stitch the butt seam first,You may not find it necessary to back the seam with tape,I use thin leather and short skive the sides to back seams.
Now, since we are dicussing uppers hand seams,I saw a lobb boots, i think it was made by the Polish shoemaker,it was an invisible stitch on the throat of the boots,where top of the vamp is sewn to the leg part,there you see a line,but not the thread and it was a marvel to look at,I wonder if anyone has seen this technique or knows how to do it?
my two cents worth.
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dw
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Re: Closing techniques
Nasser,
I've seen it and if you can tease Master Saguto out of seclusion, he knows how to do it. In fact he showed me the technique in my shop some years ago but I've never tried it.
As I recall it is not too dissimilar to butt seaming but from the flesh side of course.
Speaking of butt seaming...where do you use that technique? On split toes or where an apron is wanted? If not, what do you use on split toes or aprons?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I've seen it and if you can tease Master Saguto out of seclusion, he knows how to do it. In fact he showed me the technique in my shop some years ago but I've never tried it.
As I recall it is not too dissimilar to butt seaming but from the flesh side of course.
Speaking of butt seaming...where do you use that technique? On split toes or where an apron is wanted? If not, what do you use on split toes or aprons?
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
DW,
Thank you, it is heart warming to know Master Saguto knows the technique, i will send him a private e-mail just in case.
If by split toes you mean the Tabi like shoes, i have not made those yet, i make split toe sandals with wide foot support on the sides, but different than the closed split toe shoes(Tabi). Butt seaming i have done for historical reproductions in the past and there was a time when i made shoes %100 by hand for a while and not by choice, the uppers of course were butt sewn,but now i want to remake a veg tan leather tool box with butt sewing at 90 degrees and some curves.
Regards Nasser
Thank you, it is heart warming to know Master Saguto knows the technique, i will send him a private e-mail just in case.
If by split toes you mean the Tabi like shoes, i have not made those yet, i make split toe sandals with wide foot support on the sides, but different than the closed split toe shoes(Tabi). Butt seaming i have done for historical reproductions in the past and there was a time when i made shoes %100 by hand for a while and not by choice, the uppers of course were butt sewn,but now i want to remake a veg tan leather tool box with butt sewing at 90 degrees and some curves.
Regards Nasser
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Closing techniques
Hi DW and Nasser
Just have to ask? why are you sewing through a butt seam?
As Nasser pointed out you don't have to back the seam with tape leather is better as when lasting the nylon tape may not move with the leather and may cause a unstretched part or and over stretched part. Hope that makes sense.
When I sew a butt seam depending on the leather weight I like to take a short angled scive off the edges so there is less bulk when flattened. If you don't want the sewing to be seen you should crank the tension up a bit so it really holds the leather together. and your backing should be helping hold the leather together. I have even made a light groove down the middle of the reinforcing strip so it helps level the whole seam. And really keeps the stitching from showing after lasting or blocking. I have done this by folding the strip of leather and very gently touching the fold to a fine grit wheel. I tried to back the fold with a ruler but that caused more holes than good. If you pinch the leather close to the fold and let the sandpaper kiss the leather and keep it moving the loose flesh fibers will grind off and as you get close to the grain side it gets a tad firmer which means your done. I hope that makes sense.
I'm still working on the Tabis project and the first two prototypes I tried to not use a gusset in the split but depending on how supple the leather is a gusset is unaviodable. I assume a gusset or apron is used when the leather can not make the curve Or you want the seams in a place were they won't rub the foot/toes. I haven't backed these seams as there is no room for the bulk and turning would be a nightmare.
Regards
Brendan
Just have to ask? why are you sewing through a butt seam?
As Nasser pointed out you don't have to back the seam with tape leather is better as when lasting the nylon tape may not move with the leather and may cause a unstretched part or and over stretched part. Hope that makes sense.
When I sew a butt seam depending on the leather weight I like to take a short angled scive off the edges so there is less bulk when flattened. If you don't want the sewing to be seen you should crank the tension up a bit so it really holds the leather together. and your backing should be helping hold the leather together. I have even made a light groove down the middle of the reinforcing strip so it helps level the whole seam. And really keeps the stitching from showing after lasting or blocking. I have done this by folding the strip of leather and very gently touching the fold to a fine grit wheel. I tried to back the fold with a ruler but that caused more holes than good. If you pinch the leather close to the fold and let the sandpaper kiss the leather and keep it moving the loose flesh fibers will grind off and as you get close to the grain side it gets a tad firmer which means your done. I hope that makes sense.
I'm still working on the Tabis project and the first two prototypes I tried to not use a gusset in the split but depending on how supple the leather is a gusset is unaviodable. I assume a gusset or apron is used when the leather can not make the curve Or you want the seams in a place were they won't rub the foot/toes. I haven't backed these seams as there is no room for the bulk and turning would be a nightmare.
Regards
Brendan
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lancepryor
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Re: Closing techniques
Nasser:
The folks at Edward Green are masters of the butt stitch, which they call skin stitching. Sometimes they do it on the grain side (e.g. in the apron seam of many of their shoes, including their Dover model -- http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6040/eg_dover_808_brandywillow_1.jpg), but for a toe seam they do it from the flesh side. They use a very fine sewing awl and boar's bristles for the actual stitching. Also, FWIW, they rub down the back of the stitched seam with soap after they've stitched it. I guess that helps the leather compress a bit so the seam isn't too bulky. They don't use any backing, though of course this toe seam doesn't take too much stress, plus it has the backing of the toe puff.
Lance
The folks at Edward Green are masters of the butt stitch, which they call skin stitching. Sometimes they do it on the grain side (e.g. in the apron seam of many of their shoes, including their Dover model -- http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/6040/eg_dover_808_brandywillow_1.jpg), but for a toe seam they do it from the flesh side. They use a very fine sewing awl and boar's bristles for the actual stitching. Also, FWIW, they rub down the back of the stitched seam with soap after they've stitched it. I guess that helps the leather compress a bit so the seam isn't too bulky. They don't use any backing, though of course this toe seam doesn't take too much stress, plus it has the backing of the toe puff.
Lance
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Closing techniques
Lance
Good eye!
That is a true butt seam on the toe. I used to sew those on 7-10 ounce russet for Prosthetic sockets. It too a while but after I got on it I could back a nice flat seam no blow thru, no grinning on the flesh side, no visable threads.
The butt seam that I guess we were talking about was a turned butt instead of thin scive with 1/4 fold back allowance and the seams cemented back. also an option for a very flat seam but more work. But if you want to stich beside a butt like up the back of a boot shaft on say a womens dress boot. the thin svice and fold back is a must other wise makeing the lines of stitching parellel will drive you insane.
Regards
Brendan
Good eye!
That is a true butt seam on the toe. I used to sew those on 7-10 ounce russet for Prosthetic sockets. It too a while but after I got on it I could back a nice flat seam no blow thru, no grinning on the flesh side, no visable threads.
The butt seam that I guess we were talking about was a turned butt instead of thin scive with 1/4 fold back allowance and the seams cemented back. also an option for a very flat seam but more work. But if you want to stich beside a butt like up the back of a boot shaft on say a womens dress boot. the thin svice and fold back is a must other wise makeing the lines of stitching parellel will drive you insane.
Regards
Brendan
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dw
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Re: Closing techniques
Nasser, Brandon, Lance,
Lance...the toe of the Edward Greens is what I call a "split toe." That is what I heard from shoe fitters back 50 some years ago when I was just starting to wear men's shoes.
Of course, I am more familiar with them with the stitching on the grainside. And I have seen it done all the way around an apron.
As for why I want to do "skin stiching"...I am refining my Neo-Jacobite buckle shoe. I have several customers who want to wear this kind of shoe with a kilt and an Argyll or Prince Charlie doublet. The shoes I am trying to "capture the essence of" would have been unlined and the uppers would have been an 8-10 ounce veg tanned leather. This shoe was essentially three pieces--two quarters and a tongued vamp. The quarter might have been skin stitched to the vamps--butt seamed edge to edge. I recall Al showing me this technique as well...in the context of attaching a quarter and vamp.
I am using a thinner piece of calf skin (four ounce), however, and it is delicate work with a fine sewing awl and thin nylon bristles and a two cord Teklon thread. It is only two short seams on each shoe but it is quarter to vamp and I would not trust the seam to hold or remain closed when lasting. Hence ther need for a backing--nylon or leather that is incorporated into the seam.
These types of shoes had a "dog leg" quarter that has a certain rustic..and very characteristic...charm. By butt seaming I am hoping I can emulate that 18th century look.
The rest of the shoe will be stitched with my new Pfaff 471.
BTW Nasser, the toe area of the shoe that Lance posted is, if I recall correctly, essentially what Al did when he demonstrated the "inset tongue" to me. I think the stitching awl enters the leather, from the fleshside a predetermined distance from the edge (I am currently using the same distance from the edge as the stitch length), it "tunnels" through the substance of the leather to emerge on the edge just below the grain surface. Then it pierces the edge of the other piece just below the grain surface and tunnels through the substance to the same predetermined distance from the edge on the other piece of leather. All stitches are "hidden" on the flesh side.
What I am doing is almost exactly the same thing except the stitches are on the grainside and exposed.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Lance...the toe of the Edward Greens is what I call a "split toe." That is what I heard from shoe fitters back 50 some years ago when I was just starting to wear men's shoes.
Of course, I am more familiar with them with the stitching on the grainside. And I have seen it done all the way around an apron.
As for why I want to do "skin stiching"...I am refining my Neo-Jacobite buckle shoe. I have several customers who want to wear this kind of shoe with a kilt and an Argyll or Prince Charlie doublet. The shoes I am trying to "capture the essence of" would have been unlined and the uppers would have been an 8-10 ounce veg tanned leather. This shoe was essentially three pieces--two quarters and a tongued vamp. The quarter might have been skin stitched to the vamps--butt seamed edge to edge. I recall Al showing me this technique as well...in the context of attaching a quarter and vamp.
I am using a thinner piece of calf skin (four ounce), however, and it is delicate work with a fine sewing awl and thin nylon bristles and a two cord Teklon thread. It is only two short seams on each shoe but it is quarter to vamp and I would not trust the seam to hold or remain closed when lasting. Hence ther need for a backing--nylon or leather that is incorporated into the seam.
These types of shoes had a "dog leg" quarter that has a certain rustic..and very characteristic...charm. By butt seaming I am hoping I can emulate that 18th century look.
The rest of the shoe will be stitched with my new Pfaff 471.
BTW Nasser, the toe area of the shoe that Lance posted is, if I recall correctly, essentially what Al did when he demonstrated the "inset tongue" to me. I think the stitching awl enters the leather, from the fleshside a predetermined distance from the edge (I am currently using the same distance from the edge as the stitch length), it "tunnels" through the substance of the leather to emerge on the edge just below the grain surface. Then it pierces the edge of the other piece just below the grain surface and tunnels through the substance to the same predetermined distance from the edge on the other piece of leather. All stitches are "hidden" on the flesh side.
What I am doing is almost exactly the same thing except the stitches are on the grainside and exposed.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
Lance,
Thanks for the link, those are really nice shoes,i think they resemble a style called the Bostonian,they look %100 handmade,Do you know if they skive any side of the edges for the toe stitching or simply they make tight stitches? I guess i need a small awl to start stitching uppers by hand.Lance, i sometime think that your brian must be wired to the biggest search engine in America, Thanks again.
Brendan,
I am not sure i understand the part about the "folding a strip of leather and gently touching the fold to a fine grit wheel" Can you expand on that?
Regards Nasser
Thanks for the link, those are really nice shoes,i think they resemble a style called the Bostonian,they look %100 handmade,Do you know if they skive any side of the edges for the toe stitching or simply they make tight stitches? I guess i need a small awl to start stitching uppers by hand.Lance, i sometime think that your brian must be wired to the biggest search engine in America, Thanks again.
Brendan,
I am not sure i understand the part about the "folding a strip of leather and gently touching the fold to a fine grit wheel" Can you expand on that?
Regards Nasser
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lancepryor
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Re: Closing techniques
DW:
You are correct about the skin stitch being, I guess, what one could call a tunnel stitch. If you have any boar's bristles, you might want to give those a try -- I think the stiffness inherent in the bristle would make it alot easier to stitch than a thin nylon bristle, which must be pretty flimsy and thus hard to push through the 'tunnel' and find the hole on the opposite side piece of leather.
That apron stitch on the Dover is really only sort of a 1/2 butt stitch -- i.e. it tunnels through the leather on the apron piece of leather but then punctures the leather on the vamp piece, so the apron piece butts up against the inside of the vamp piece. That stitching is, obviously, done from the grain side of the leather. You can see the 'ghosting' of the thread on the apron where it is running under the surface of the leather. E Green have 2 employees who do nothing but sew these skin stitched uppers all day long.
Lance
You are correct about the skin stitch being, I guess, what one could call a tunnel stitch. If you have any boar's bristles, you might want to give those a try -- I think the stiffness inherent in the bristle would make it alot easier to stitch than a thin nylon bristle, which must be pretty flimsy and thus hard to push through the 'tunnel' and find the hole on the opposite side piece of leather.
That apron stitch on the Dover is really only sort of a 1/2 butt stitch -- i.e. it tunnels through the leather on the apron piece of leather but then punctures the leather on the vamp piece, so the apron piece butts up against the inside of the vamp piece. That stitching is, obviously, done from the grain side of the leather. You can see the 'ghosting' of the thread on the apron where it is running under the surface of the leather. E Green have 2 employees who do nothing but sew these skin stitched uppers all day long.
Lance
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artzend
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Re: Closing techniques
Dw
Are you thinking of using what I was told is called split and lift? You butt the two edges together and then sew from the back by making a hole with a welt awl starting about 5mm from the edge and coming out in the middle of the thickness of the material, going into the other side and coming up 5mm or so from the edge on the other side.
I was asked to do this a long time ago and haven't seen it elsewhere. It creates a really neat seam as they pull together really tight. I would possibly put some tape down the back later if you like, but I don't think it was done on the ones I was looking to do.
Tim
Are you thinking of using what I was told is called split and lift? You butt the two edges together and then sew from the back by making a hole with a welt awl starting about 5mm from the edge and coming out in the middle of the thickness of the material, going into the other side and coming up 5mm or so from the edge on the other side.
I was asked to do this a long time ago and haven't seen it elsewhere. It creates a really neat seam as they pull together really tight. I would possibly put some tape down the back later if you like, but I don't think it was done on the ones I was looking to do.
Tim
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dw
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Re: Closing techniques
Tim,
Well, yes, it is essentially the same idea except that I want to stitch from the grainside--I want my stitches to show as two parallel lines of stitches on either side of the butted seam.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
Well, yes, it is essentially the same idea except that I want to stitch from the grainside--I want my stitches to show as two parallel lines of stitches on either side of the butted seam.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
DW,
I am sorry for misundersting your terminology for the split toe shoes,I know now what class of shoes you were referring to and i made few with grain side up at the toes and some i machine sewn the toe area,but i have not Butt (skin stitched) the toes on a pair yet,always feared putting seams in the front,but I butt stitched quarters to vamps and back seamed and i stitched from both the grain and the flesh side and there is always the edge of the seam noticable and on E GREEN one can even see the markings of the thread from the bottom, Now the Lobb boot i saw,the edges on the grain side were pulled in and the edge was not visible at all and no thread markings and remember this was in the throat area of the boots, Our friend Rene Hackstetter,former HCC member owns the boots here in Ontatio,but he has not worn them yet, I will ask him for some close ups,but no promise.
Regards Nasser
I am sorry for misundersting your terminology for the split toe shoes,I know now what class of shoes you were referring to and i made few with grain side up at the toes and some i machine sewn the toe area,but i have not Butt (skin stitched) the toes on a pair yet,always feared putting seams in the front,but I butt stitched quarters to vamps and back seamed and i stitched from both the grain and the flesh side and there is always the edge of the seam noticable and on E GREEN one can even see the markings of the thread from the bottom, Now the Lobb boot i saw,the edges on the grain side were pulled in and the edge was not visible at all and no thread markings and remember this was in the throat area of the boots, Our friend Rene Hackstetter,former HCC member owns the boots here in Ontatio,but he has not worn them yet, I will ask him for some close ups,but no promise.
Regards Nasser
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dw
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Re: Closing techniques
Nasser,
I am not sure that what you are describing with regard tot eh Lobb boot is the same as skin stitching or not. could it be that it was just very refined work?
What have seen (grown up with) is similar to a pair that Jan Peter Myhre offers at http://www.bespoke-shoes.com/ . Go to the webpage skip the intro, select "collection" and the bottom-most thumbnail (to the left of the main photo) should be a tan derby split-toe with apron. Clicking on the thumbnail will bring up a larger version.
On this style of shoe the parts are obviously skin-stitched from the grainside. I am not sure whether a small stout skive is added to the butted edges or not. Certainly the effect is more "rolled up" than I might want (maybe yes, maybe no) although in all other respects very close.
If you or Lance or anyone else can shed more light on JP's technique, I would appreciate it.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
I am not sure that what you are describing with regard tot eh Lobb boot is the same as skin stitching or not. could it be that it was just very refined work?
What have seen (grown up with) is similar to a pair that Jan Peter Myhre offers at http://www.bespoke-shoes.com/ . Go to the webpage skip the intro, select "collection" and the bottom-most thumbnail (to the left of the main photo) should be a tan derby split-toe with apron. Clicking on the thumbnail will bring up a larger version.
On this style of shoe the parts are obviously skin-stitched from the grainside. I am not sure whether a small stout skive is added to the butted edges or not. Certainly the effect is more "rolled up" than I might want (maybe yes, maybe no) although in all other respects very close.
If you or Lance or anyone else can shed more light on JP's technique, I would appreciate it.
Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC
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large_shoemaker_at_large
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Re: Closing techniques
Nasser
To expand on the folding and sanding thing. Basically I am trying to make a groove in the middle of a strip of leather. Usually about 3/4 inch wide and very light weight 2 oz garment leather. It is easy to scive an edge but to reduce the thickness in the middle of a strip of leather had me scratch my head. So I tried it and it worked like I wanted it to. If It was a heavy veg tan I have a groover to do that but for light leather I don't.
Just for the sake of clarity when you refer to an apron is that the inset piece on the vamp? I have heard of aprons in referance to saddles not shoes.
DW
now that you have clarified what you are trying to do. good luck! That will be a challange and I do want to see a pic of the finished goods. Are these shoes unlined?
Many years ago I read a couple books called the Fox Fire series, if memory serves me it was a 7 volume set and It was teens interviewing old folks from the Appilacians on how they made and did things way back. There is a section on bootmaking and was interesting but brief. It also got into how to make a musket from scratch including how to put rifeling inside the barrel and of course how to make a still. It is an interesting read just to see how and were we have come.
Regards
Brendan
To expand on the folding and sanding thing. Basically I am trying to make a groove in the middle of a strip of leather. Usually about 3/4 inch wide and very light weight 2 oz garment leather. It is easy to scive an edge but to reduce the thickness in the middle of a strip of leather had me scratch my head. So I tried it and it worked like I wanted it to. If It was a heavy veg tan I have a groover to do that but for light leather I don't.
Just for the sake of clarity when you refer to an apron is that the inset piece on the vamp? I have heard of aprons in referance to saddles not shoes.
DW
now that you have clarified what you are trying to do. good luck! That will be a challange and I do want to see a pic of the finished goods. Are these shoes unlined?
Many years ago I read a couple books called the Fox Fire series, if memory serves me it was a 7 volume set and It was teens interviewing old folks from the Appilacians on how they made and did things way back. There is a section on bootmaking and was interesting but brief. It also got into how to make a musket from scratch including how to put rifeling inside the barrel and of course how to make a still. It is an interesting read just to see how and were we have come.
Regards
Brendan
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
DW,
I described lobb technique the best i could, it is indeed a butt stitched from the flesh side and fine work it is,but how to make the edge on the grain side folds in toward the inside, without seeing the butted edge,highly guarded trade secret?maybe.
About that closed Derby,I don't think (i stand to be corrected)the apron is skin stitched,but for lack of better term,i call it pinch stitch,so i think there is no separate piece for the apron here, but the impression of one through the pinch stitch,
The toe piece is stitched grain side butting from the top.
Brendan,
Thanks for the explaining.
regards Nasser
(Message edited by dearbone on May 18, 2008)
I described lobb technique the best i could, it is indeed a butt stitched from the flesh side and fine work it is,but how to make the edge on the grain side folds in toward the inside, without seeing the butted edge,highly guarded trade secret?maybe.
About that closed Derby,I don't think (i stand to be corrected)the apron is skin stitched,but for lack of better term,i call it pinch stitch,so i think there is no separate piece for the apron here, but the impression of one through the pinch stitch,
The toe piece is stitched grain side butting from the top.
Brendan,
Thanks for the explaining.
regards Nasser
(Message edited by dearbone on May 18, 2008)
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lancepryor
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Re: Closing techniques
DW:
I'm not sure the toe of the Myrhe shoe is what I would call skin stitching, since there is clearly a raised lip on that toe seam (if it is even a real seam, as opposed to simply decorative stitching, it's a little hard to tell from the pic) -- it may well be that he is doing a traditional shoemaker's stitch on that seam, just very close to the edge. It seems to me that the raised lip means the thread must be exiting the leather on the flesh side, as opposed to exiting through the cut edge of the leather. With two edges butted together and skin stitched, you don't really get a lip. You may get some wrinkling from the compression of the leather on either side of the seam if you pull on the stitch hard enough, but you won't get a lip. Also if you did something to the seam to create a lip, then you would see the thread, since the thread on a true skin stitch is at the edge of the leather, and on a lip you see the edge.
Lots of shoemakers use decorative toe stitching, e.g. Alden, Sutor Mantellassi, and Footjoy come to mind.
If you were to see the back side/flesh side (which is where the stitching is done) of the E Green skin-stitched toe, you would see that the leather is flat where the two leather pieces meet/butt together. Giving it more thought, my guess is the soap they rub on the seam is to help rub out any wrinkles the stitching has caused, as well as to make the seam totally flat.
Lance
I'm not sure the toe of the Myrhe shoe is what I would call skin stitching, since there is clearly a raised lip on that toe seam (if it is even a real seam, as opposed to simply decorative stitching, it's a little hard to tell from the pic) -- it may well be that he is doing a traditional shoemaker's stitch on that seam, just very close to the edge. It seems to me that the raised lip means the thread must be exiting the leather on the flesh side, as opposed to exiting through the cut edge of the leather. With two edges butted together and skin stitched, you don't really get a lip. You may get some wrinkling from the compression of the leather on either side of the seam if you pull on the stitch hard enough, but you won't get a lip. Also if you did something to the seam to create a lip, then you would see the thread, since the thread on a true skin stitch is at the edge of the leather, and on a lip you see the edge.
Lots of shoemakers use decorative toe stitching, e.g. Alden, Sutor Mantellassi, and Footjoy come to mind.
If you were to see the back side/flesh side (which is where the stitching is done) of the E Green skin-stitched toe, you would see that the leather is flat where the two leather pieces meet/butt together. Giving it more thought, my guess is the soap they rub on the seam is to help rub out any wrinkles the stitching has caused, as well as to make the seam totally flat.
Lance
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dearbone
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Re: Closing techniques
A few more words about those cleverly made Derbys,same design with some diffrence in closing of uppers and the Dover has a separate piece apron,but i think the J.P. is made one piece front and of course the pinch stitch is to reduse strain and the stitch at the toe is made the flesh side facing as it it's natural direction after the pinch stitch is done,sometime the tongue is made a separate piece and the seam will be covered by the quarter(lace) area and this is done to reduce the angle for better lasting.I like the smaller fudge wheel look on the Dover more than the J.P.
Nasser
Nasser