Closing techniques

[dw]

As promised here's a little photo tutorial on making hidden tie-offs--I haven't done one of these in a while.

When I first started doing this years ago, I had a small round awl haft into which I stuck a very tiny sewing awl. When I went to do this today, I couldn't find the awl or the haft so I just mounted a needle in a screw haft. Later on in the day I made a new awl and stick it in another haft I had tucked away.

This first photo is of the tongue from the right side. I have already pulled the thread through to the lining side.

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This second photo shows the lining side and the two tools necessary to do it the way I do it. the needle mounted in a haft...I'd prefer a really tiny curved sewing awl...and a threader made from guitar string.

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The third photo shows the needle making the pilot hole.

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The fourth photo shows the threader pulling the two threads --top and bobbin--simultaneously through the pilot hole. A smidgeon of AP is applied to the threads particularly at the base of the stitch.

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This photo presents the finished tie-off. If you pull the threads taut as you cut them they will "shrink" back up into the pilot hole a tiny bit and virtually nothing will show,

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This final photo is the haft and awl I made. The haft is ebony and the awl is one I made from a three inch sewing awl that had had the tip broken off. As you can see the tip on this reincarnation is less than a millimeter in diameter.

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[homeboy]

Dee-Dubb,

I remember you showing me this trick a few years back. It amazes me how you come up with these ideas. Keep'em coming!

Jake

[dw]

Jake,

Necessity is the mother of invention and I get a lot of mothering. I'd be a lot poorer ...financially, creatively, and even spiritually...if I didn't.

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[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi Robert
Re shoes closed with hanging lining.
Finally got a chance to play with pics
I will post them to Correcting common foot problems forum
Regards
Brendan
DW
Nice job of hiding the thread ends. AP cement ? guess I can't fiqure that one out? my guess animal protien like a hide glue?
BB

[dw]

Brendan,

Thanks. AP=all purpose cement.

I played around trying to use nothing but natural glues on this pair of shoes...dextrine and HirschKleber, specifically. Mostly with good results--and while I know it can be done and I know that many are doing it, I think there's also a place for AP and RC (rubber cement) in closing--just not under broguing.

I am about to mount my quarters on my vamps and wondering/worrying how to use glue and be certain I will not get any slippage of position as I prepared to stitch.

PS...photos of, or discussion regarding, mounting a hanging lining should very probably and most appropriately be posted right here in "Closing Techniques." "Correcting Common Foot Problems" is intended for just what it sounds like...mostly orthopedic discussions.

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[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi DW
DAHH guess I was thinking to hard. I use barge/helmitin to close uppers all the time. That's the way I was taught to many years ago. I also had a (heated discussion with another shoemaker) and they claimed that you could only use rubber cement for closing uppers. I guess it's how you use the product. do you want a lifetime bond or to you need to adhere something that will allow a seam to be stitched with out moving. Are you using an oil tanned leather? Foam Padding? each cement product including the vinyl type cement, has it's own place, especially modifying footwear. don't want to start a fight.

DW Just my opinion to hang the linings just a light pass of AP on the upper and quickly stick the lining when slightly wet this should give you a moment to smooth the lining and then wait a couple minutes to stitch so you don't gum up the needle. On certian situations such as sewing in a billows tongue you want the traditional brush/wait/bond way as the stitching process can get trickey trying to tie in outer leather, lining and tongue through some tight curves.

Regards
Brendan

[tjburr]

I thought I would make a post of something that finally made sense to me. I have often tried to understand the different methods that a lining can be sewn in a derby. I have seen several methods described here, but there was one method mentioned in old shoe making books that never made sense (of course when I tried to go find the exact book I had no luck).

With all the references people have made lately to the book Handmade Shoes For Men, I decided to re-read some of it. And wouldn't you know it, I saw something in the pictures that I had not seen before. Before I had read the text and looked at the pictures as reference. In this reading I was looking more at the pictures than the text (I know a lot more now). The interesting pages are 114 and 115. The trick that was described in the old book (dang I will really need to go looking for the exact book), is visible in these pictures and after seeing the pictures it finally makes sense.

Now of course I could be trying to make the pictures fit the description in the old book, but I believe this is what I am seeing in the pictures. I sure wish HSFM was just a little more detailed.

The basic concept is that all the pieces of the lining are sewn together prior to attaching to the upper. So basically you have a complete shoe shaped lining.

The trick is in exactly how the upper is sewn. When the quarter is sewn to the vamp, the stitching stops shorter of the front of the quarter than what is normally described. This gives the person sewing the lining room to stitch in the lining. (Note: I was thinking in terms of a post machine which is what it looks like in the pictures as well and there might be difficulty on other machines) The lower left picture on page 115 shows better how the stitching does not go to the very front of the quarter.

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The lining is then inserted within the upper and aligned. There is then room to stitch around the tounge and around the top edge of the quarters. It will take some bending of the vamp and quarters to keep them out of the way, but there is room.

Then the lining is trimmed.

Then the rest of the stitching of the quarter to the vamp is performed.

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I am sorry that I could not supply better drawings for those people that do not have the HSFM book. Also I know the finish stitching may not be 100% exact, but I hope this gives the idea.

If there is any part of this that is not understandable I will be more than happy to try to re-word.

[dw]

I ran across an interesting item in the Lee Valley catalogue the other day--thin film, double stick tape. I know that some of the manufacturers of tapes specifically for shoemaking applications (Ideal, Advanced) offer something similar. It is used to temporarily bond components together before sewing.

This film has a removable layer, that does not adhere, on both sides. One side can be peeled off and the film positioned along a seam and then the other side peeled as the leather piece is put in place.

So...bright idea...why couldn't the film be positioned along an edge that was to be gimped and brogued--such as a toe cap. Then the broguing takes place and where the broguing is punched the film will be removed along with the "chads." At that point the non-sticky layer is removed and the toecap is affixed to the vamp and sewn into place.

Voila!! Brogued toe cap with no glue or cement down inside the holes of the broguing!!

Thoughts? What do you think? And since this type of double sided film already exists in the shoemaking world, has anyone seen anything similar?

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[dw]

Terry,

I just wanted to somewhat belatedly thank you for your drawings and remarks about closing the Derby. I ended up doing it that way, myself, after poring over HMSFM...just as you did.

The technique worked fine. And with a little care, it is absolutely impossible to tell that the closing was done in two passes.

thanks again.


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[romango]

I like your tape idea. Personally, I have not stressed too much over this issue. I have just applied glue carefully beyond the brogue holes. In other words, far enough from the edge that it does not get in the holes and just barely catches the piece below.

This has always held well enough to sew as long as the panels are flat.

[tjburr]

DW,

Thanks for the feedback.

I had not had the chance to make a derby since figuring it out; my full time job is not making shoes and my shoe making job is more moccasin style.

I could picture how it would work in my mind, but it is always good to KNOW it will work.

Terry

[tmattimore]

The only way I have seen the tape used is as a reenforcement on backseams. The quarters are zigzaged together then opened and the tape is applied and sewn with a double needle machine to help keep the seam from opening in use. There was a machine that both applied the tape and stitched it in one pass. This was specified on all U.S. Army foot wear from 1928 thru today. I see know reason it would not work as you described depending on weather you can get a clean cut thru the weave of the tape, if it is a nonwoven it might work fine.
Tom

[dw]

I have acquired a new shoe last model that I like pretty well. But the heel/"comb" seems low or short to me...if I measure up the back of the heel from the featherline to find the counter point (CP), using one-fifth SLL, and then add 10mm to find the topline, I end up at the very top edge of the last.

Is that formula (found in Sharpe, Patrick, and Skyrme) wrong? Does it produce too high a back?

Or does the "comb" (heel portion of the top of the last) need to be raised? Any tips on how to do this?

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[dw]

I am going to be making a saddle shoe for my next foray into shoemaking. Are there any tips, crans or advice that I might find useful?

I know that the saddle shoe is essentially and oxford. Is the vamp point placed a little higher than normal (currently I am finding the vamp point at 70% SLL from CP)?

Styling tips?

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[chuck_deats]

OK, DW, For us that are a little slow, define SLL. Think it has to do with last length, but not sure. Thanks.

Chuck

[lancepryor]

DW:

I look forward to what others have to say; Sharpe does say that the standard formula (1/5 SLL + 12mm) yields a back height that looks too high to many designers, so I guess the same might be said for the 1/5 SLL + 10mm. FWIW, my bespoke last is approximately 75mm high at the back.

Lance

[dw]

Chuck,

Although I do know some of these are fairly standard in shoemaking books, some of these terms have come to me from nebulous and long forgotten sources...

SLL=(s)tandard (l)ast (l)ength [Sharpe, Patrick]

CP= (c)ounter (p)oint [ibid]

V or VP = (v)amp (p)oint [Sharpe, Patrick, Skyrme...but the latter amkes a clear distinction between the vamp point of the last (and formes) and the vamp point of the pattern]

LOMA=(line) (o)f (m)uscular (a)ction [Rossi?]

Comb=the top of the last in the rear part of the last; where the thimble (if one exists) is mounted; the rearward extension of the cone [this last I got from E.J. McDaniel, I believe.]

Hope that helps...

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[dw]

Lance,

I think Sharpe says, right after that, that 1/5 SLL + 3/8" is the standard being used in the book...which is pretty close on to 1/5 SLL +10 mm.

By that standard my own back height is about 65mm.

I think the last is about 67mm at the back.

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[headelf]

If you need a little more back height you could add it this way. I needed more when I had to leave room for orthotics.
Made a template by rubbing baking parchment along top of thimble/cone are. Spray glued to a piece of plastic. Margarine top plastic worked fine. Punched a couple of holes on two scrap pieces of veg tan. Stacked and glued the holes, traced plant on shape from template and then trimmed up on finisher.Cemented addition with all purpose to top of cone with a couple of long tacks for insurance.
Might not be kosher by some accounts but it worked.
Regards,
Georgene

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[dw]

Georgene,

Thanks and thanks for the pics!

It's "kosher"...I don't know how else you could do it. I was figuring on something like that but my method probably wouldn't have been near as refined as yours--cement some punched pieces on and grind to shape.

I might have phrased that question badly though...aside from fixing the current problem, I was also seeking opinions on how high the backs on the shoe should be as well as how much higher the lasts should be.

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[gshoes]

DW,

I am also confused about what the back heel hieght should be. Having a particular foot that I am trying to put in shoes, and that foot being a bit off the normal size charts, it makes sense to me that the measurement should be taken from the heel and not just some figure that is derived from the SLL? I attended the Shoe School in Port Townsend and if I recall correctly, we used a chart that was based on a shoe size.

But once I have decided what a particular style of shoe that I will be making, I would like to have a last that I can make any height shoe that I want. Is too much last height a problem?

Geri

[dw]

Geraldine,

Well, if shoe sizes are standardized (and they more or less are...at least that's the ideal) then shoe size is more or less equivalent to SLL.

However, since there are lasts with extended toes, and narrow toes, and some you might alter or extend yourself, SLL can be tricky. There's another area where Sabbages Sectionizer comes in handy. If you have the stick of the foot you can determine a "normal" SLL regardless of the actual length of the last. SLL equals 12/11th of foot length.

Basing the CP and back height on the SLL is, as implied above, almost the standard in the Trade. Most of the literature that I have come into contact with use some proportion of standard last length. Granville (Golding, vol. I) says not less than 1/4 SLL for shoe height at back. I think that's been more or less eclipsed by more modern sensibilities, but he's still using the SLL.

Part of the problem with adding to the top of the last or not having a fixed comb height, might be that the back curve could be kind of indeterminate also.

Part of the problem with too short a comb is that is that it makes hoisting during lasting difficult.

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[tjburr]

DW,

As you know I have looked at various geometric design methods. From this if I remember correctly.

The Koleff Geometric Design Manual has a table of back Heights if I remember correctly.

In several sources, including Koleff I have seen the back height calculated from the short heel measurement. Usually this is close to 1/5th the short heel.

I also remember seeing an equation based on last size and last width as well. I would have to go searching to find it though.

This would all seem to match since the standard short heel measurement is probably an equation based on the SLL and last width.

I am away from my library, but when I get back I will try to look up some sources.

Terry

[dw]

Terry,

I have Koleff...I'll have to check that out this morning. I've read through Koleff and palyed with his methods but I never noticed that table I suppose because I've had 1/5 SLL drummed into my head for so long. And because when I started doing shoes recently, I went with the mean forme methods of generating a standard rather than the geometric.

I'd be interested in seeing other formulas for determining back height, however, if only to compare. My guess is that none of them will yield a figure that is more than a couple of millimeters off the 1/5 SLL, one way or the other, but even that might make a difference esthetically.

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[dw]

Terry,

Checked Koleff today (and several others...so I might be misremembering) and he says 1/5 of the short heel for the back height. Which places it at 62mm for my foot...versus 64 mm using Sharpe's CP plus 10mm.

I like the idea because it seems that for two, say, size 7's--an A and a D--we could expect a different short heel. And on the narrower foot it might very well be better to place the back height somewhat below where we would put it on a wider foot.

But as good as that is, we still need a CP if only to design the counter, and I can't seem to find it in Koleff.

My old saddlemaker (I was "apprenticed" for a couple of years) told me once that "in the old days" young novice makers would travel from one shop to another working for each maker for a while before moving on. The moral of the story was that in each shop the master maker would probably have at least one thing he did better than anyone else. If the novice picked up that one thing...and the "one thing" from the next shop, and the next, and so forth...he could expect to become a pretty good saddlemaker.

Seems like the same is true for shoemakers and all these books and methods--every writer, every maker, has one thing he does better than anyone else.

Like so much of life, even though most of us seem convinced otherwise, no one of us really has the whole answer.

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