Closing techniques

[dw]

All,

Just thought I would share a technique for turning edges that is, if nothing else, a pretty good alternative to the technique that Tim outlined in his book.

I have been developing this technique for a long time and it is especially good for patterns that are repeated or remain the same size. But in a pinch and under certain circumstances it can be used anywhere and is sometimes the only way to do a consistent and even job by hand.

Let's say that you want to turn edges of the topline on a quarter. My original technique involved making a copy of the quarter in fairly stiff acetate. The acetate was then lightly sanded on both sides. The edges that were to be turned were skived. The acetate pattern was rubber cemented to the flesh side of the quarter and then a coat of rubber cement was applied to the skived edge of the leather and corresponding edge of the acetate. When that was dry the grainside of the leather was wet with stretching fluid.

Then the skived leather was turned over the edge of the acetate and rubber cemented in place and tight. And lightly hammered. When the turned edge was fully dry the acetate would be removed and the skived leather would remain set in a position such that if it were then cemented down to the underlying flesh side, it would lie down perfectly...no fuss, no muss, no wobbles.

Rather quickly I found that the result however, was a little large and I had to reduce the edge of the acetate pattern somewhat...roughly a millimeter along those edges to be turned, depending on the thickness of the acetate.

The results were precise to a degree that no other technique I have seen can match...especially around corners.

Recently...having no acetate on hand...I tried this same technique by cutting out my turning template from manila folder stock. Then I gave it several coats of thinned celluloid cement. If the celluloid cement is thin enough it will soak into the paper of the manila folder stock and cause it to be waterproof--an essential element in the whole technique.

Using the manila paper, I am also able to precisely scribe a millimeter reduction along the edge with a pair of draftsman's dividers. This surplus I cut off with a sharp clicker knife. I do this prior to coating with the cement.

The one flaw in the whole process is that the thin cement will make the folder stock curl. But a old clothes iron (don't use the wife's good iron), bought from the second hand store for that very purpose, can remedy even that problem. Simply set the iron to wool and sandwich the pattern between two sheets of paper toweling and iron. The pattern will flatten out admirably.

At that point the process is as described above.

I find this particularly suitable when trying to turn edges of leather where the grainside of the leather cannot be cemented--burnishable buffalo or a suede or any naked finish leather such as...perhaps...crust.

I would be interested in hearing the comments or observations of anyone who tries this technique.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[romango]

DW,

I like the idea, in general, of turning manila into more durable templates with celluloid cement.

I've never heard of wetting the leather before folding either. I'll have to try that!

I have used Tim's method (template glued to grain side) to fold burnishable buffalo without problem.

I have found that rubber cement is not removable from flesh sides. Do you just glue the template at the appropriate edges to avoid an unintended layer of glue on the whole panel flesh side?

[dw]

Rick,

Since I will inevitably be cementing turned components to lining pieces, I don't really worry about the rubber cement coming off the fleshside. I cement the whole "offside" of the template to the fleshside of the leather. This prevents slippage, buckling and distortion. I cement the turning side just at the edge and the skived leather at the same time. I wet the skived area from the grainside to allow it to turn more easily, to relieve any tension that might be present in the turned edge, and so that when it dries it will have taken a "set."

When it is dry I will carefully peel back the skived leather and break the bond on the underside of the template to remove the template entirely. With just a little care serious re-bonding can be avoided until the template is removed and you are ready to press the turned edge into its final position.

I have found that rubber cement cannot be removed with 100% certainty from burnishable buffalo. It always leaves a residue that may not be wholly apparent until you go to wet or stain or polish the leather. Maybe it's just the brand of rubber cement I use.

I like Tim's method...I found it to be a revelation. And I would probably use it in most circumstances especially where I was certain the cement would not adhere to the grain surface.

That said, this method (using an interior template) is without a doubt the most accurate and foolproof that I have ever used...it takes probably four times as much effort and time, however.

But you know me...I will always, and gladly, invest that time if the results seem to warrant it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW

This method seems to me to be very long winded but if it works, that is fine. You don't have to stick templates to grain if you use paper clips.

There is usually a problem with accuracy when relying on marks on the back of the material being folded. I guess it is that the 3mm or so that is required to go around the folded edge (orange peel effect) can cause the pattern to not be accurate. At least, every time I saw it done that way it came out wrong.

Maybe the one mm that you are removing from the template may solve that.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

Well, you may be right...it is long winded. However, I'm not convinced that terse, abbreviated descriptions of detailed techniques don't actually short the student or the person wanting to learn. It may actually hurt more than help. And those who are not interested enough to read it through, aren't really interested enough to learn in the first place, in my opinion.

But if my description is long winded, the technique...once you get a handle on it...is dead fast and can be done literally by a clumsy, blunt forefinger with absolute assurance that even around tight curves the turning will be accurate and clean. If you've cut fair curves, you turn fair curves.

That said, I reiterate...I think your technique is admirable and in certain circumstances would be my first choice.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW

I didn't mean that the description was long winded, I used the wrong words, sorry. You are right about long descriptions are best. I just meant that it seems to take a lot of time to set up. Although, you say it can be done quickly.

George Koleff created the method I described in my book but he did almost the same as you by cutting templates without the folding allowance and attaching that to the outside and folding to the cut edge, in a way very similar to your method.

The only time I saw people trying to fold from marks on the back, it just wasn't accurate, so I discarded the idea.

I fold without guides as that was what I learned when I started out.

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

But you were right, the description was long winded...it's just that sometimes it has to be.

I used to outline the net patterns on the grainside of the leather with silver pen and then turn so that I could just see the silver. But while it was pretty accurate, sizewise, it was very difficult to control around small corners such as the corner at the top of the facing for instance.

When I read your book, I immediately picked up on the technique. It's good...it's very good, although in inexperienced hands it can still be difficult to turn a smooth and elegant edge in problem areas.

My method takes time to set up...maybe, as I mentioned four times as much time. But once set up it is fast and accurate even for beginners.

As for folding without, you're better than I am. I can't do that...and I've been trying for years and years.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[artzend]

DW

I didn't realise there was another way until I met up with George. I saw an Italian family of closers working at home in London and they did it by eye so I just copied that method. It is probably not that accurate at first. Not for learners.

I tried marking the outside with silver pen too but was not happy with it, as you say, it's too hard to be accurate.

Does your method rely on accurate clicking? You would have to get the template correct, I can see that. How do you compensate for differences in leather thickness or is that not a problem. I would have assumed it was, but not having used this method I would be interested.

Do you still slash the edge on inside curves?

Tim

[dw]

Tim,

As far as different thicknesses of leather is concerned, I have to make up a sample to determine how much smaller the turning template must be.

After that it's simply taking a draftsman's dividers (with pencil lead) and scribing the "take off" around the relevant edges. I must cut that excess off the template with a clicker knife but for me, at least, that's actually a lot easier than turning. So, yes, it does rely on accurate clicking but that seems to be one of my most natural skills.

And yes, I slash the edges on both inside and outside curves but not to the very edge of the template. I cut shy a distance equal to the thickness of the leather and a "little bit."

If I slash it just right...particularly at pointed corners--such as on the quarter of a derby--I can turn that point and it will be just ever so slightly "tucked under." It is a very sweet look.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

To All
Been following this thread. Guess there is more ways to skin a cat! I was taught to draw my patterns with all allowances includes, folding , lapping, butting. I was taught to fold to the pattern. Period. No wetting, cutting reliefs and trimming puckers. an outside corner was smoothed with a curvered awl or back of a Tina knife depending on the weight of the leather. the puckers were trimmed with a knife or scissors till flat. then flatetened with light taps with a hammer.

Now I guess I am going to step on toes. Many have told me you can't use anything but rubber cement for uppers. I've tried and struggled and said bad words, using rubber cement. I don't have any in my shop. for most work I use Helmitin Helmifix made in Canada same as Barge. For really oilly leather I use thinned Helmitin Helmiplast also canada equal sort of Barge Vynil cement. I also have used two face tailor tape for a silk shoe. Yes with out sewing difficulty. Now before the hoards leap out at me, my mentor during WW11 in Holland had to make cement out of throwing scraps of rubber into Naptha to make cement. And used Dextrine when avalible.

So the point I am getting across is shoemakers are adaptable to the local enviorment If I had to make inside folding patterns I would not make shoes. If your pattern is right and I use a bell sciver if set up right you should be able to fold your edges in minutes. If you let AP sit to long it is hard to fold if you get it just right fold away if everything don't stick add glue of if it's gooey go for a coffee come back and fold and check along your drawen pattern make slight changes . hammer and go on add your lining and sew away. The key is using thinner glue than thick. I also live an a winter for 6 months when humidity is low which make your glue dry faster.

A colleauge of mine showed me a study, from where I don't know, Shoemakers had a view recognition of 1/32 inch. Only bettered buy an Inlay Woodworker whose eye could see 1/64 inch. So trust you eye boy! you should try to turn to your pattern with out the inside pattern. To turn a fiinshed top line and quarter should take about ten minutes. I have seen your work you are up to it. Live in the edge.
Regards
Brendan

[dw]

Brendon,

Very interesting...as you say there are many roads to the top of the mountain. But there are, of course, caveats (you knew there would be ). First you have to see the mountain; then you have to have the desire to climb it; and finally you must pull on your hiking boots and begin the journey.

At the risk of stepping on your toes...you never stepped on mine, BTW...when your mentor threw scraps of rubber into naptha he was, in fact, making rubber cement. That is what rubber cement is--natural rubber dissolved in naptha.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[fred_coencped]

All,In the early 70`s my mentor had a USM Amazeen skiving machine sitting in his showroom.He himself had it because one of his closers passed on .Fortunate for me I scraped together the $`s that went to his widow.I practiced and learned to adjust and maintain its function and recognized the skill of the paring/skiving machine operators in New York City shoe factories as important if not equal to veteran sewing machine operators.

I feel the skill of skiving an edge of french calf,baby calf or 5/6 oz. oil tan leathers for work/hiking boots with a 3/16ths" turn allowance or 1/4" for heavier leathers on the Amazeen is very fast and accurate absolutely never using guides or templates.

The trick is to obtain a sharp shoulder to turn to with rubber cement or Masters AP for oil tan .the result is a uniform edgeequal to the original thickness of leather.

Small rounded corners require finesse with the fine awl and or bone folder and inside curves require some short slashing.

The newer bell knife skivers can do the same thing. Though I have a very old Fortuna skiver with a very small roller foot I found at a leather dealer machine hidden away in a stash of parts that I also use on 6/7oz.and above leathers to skive a sharp shoulder.

I can only imagine the incredible skill and sharp french bevel knives required as I had done that in my leather working beginnings.

I am curious how all of you skive your uppers by hand or machine.

I was taught using the sharp drop and have since readjusted making a more gradual drop in the "Scarf or paring"for a stronger edge because if done right the leather should be stronger especially with the addition of topline tape.

DW,
I agree with Brendan ,in shoemaking 1/16th" is a large measurement and our eyes can see 1/32" and 1/64"too.Trusting our eyes in seeing the horizontal and vertical level as well as straight lines and curves is our natural ability in our eyes and in our bodies too.

I think BogleGreenwall and Pilgrim may still have avaible the USM Amazeen skivers and they do take some getting used to like everything else.I am lucky and glad to have had the perseverence to learn its use.

Fred

[dearbone]

Thank you for sharing your technics regarding the turning of edges,when i started work(apprentice) with my teacher,i brought with me to the shop a fortuna skiving machine,he asked me what it was and when i finished telling him what it does,he asked me to get it out of the shop,gave me a curved skiving blade and a stright blade and went on to show me how to sharpen and make thread also, A warning to those who use exacto knife,i had a piece of the blade breaking and and hitting the top lip of my eye once,never used them again,back to turning, i skive by hand and use my card board plain pattern to mark with earsable ink pen the flash side where the fold ends,depending on the leather i do what it take to get an even fold.
DW, is correct about watering the edge on certain leather to loosen the stiffness of the grain for better fold,so i think whatever work for you,but please be careful using the exacto knife and if you have to use them, wear eye protection.
Nasser

[large_shoemaker_at_large]

Hi All
That sure got the scivings flying, eh!
I have a Saggiata sciver made in Italy almost the same as an old machine from Holland made in the early 1900's. I was taught to scive by hand in the O&P days and a couple of knives were used. A long 6 inch by 5/8 wide very flexable blade and a firmer knife for heavier leathers 7-9 oz. that had a shorter blade with a long angled front edge. I am right handed and my first teacher was left handed. He always scived by pushing away at the edge so I just learned to always scive away from my self. I went to work for a shoemaker and he freaked the first time he saw my scive and took away my flex knife that buy now had a nice curve worked into it from sharpening. He gave me a Tina knife. they come right and left handed and straight. It is about 10 inch long about and inch wide and a cross section that is thicker in the middle but slightly dished on the up side and flat on the back. They last for years and can hold a hair shaving edge. They don't have a handle they just sweep up so you knuckle clear your sciving stone but the blade lies flat. So now It is my go to knife for most jobs. I have a clicking knife for uppers only a thin blade in a spring type handle.
As for the knives with the click off blade parts we call those"Gosinta Knives" when the blade snaps suddenly it goes in to your hand,shoe,arm, co-workers arm, just about the closest post painful or expensive thing around.

Last thought to pass I bought some diamond stone sharpeners for wood working tools from Lee Valley they had a small set on cheap. 125,325,600,1200 grit. I use the 600 and the 1200 and in a very few strokes you can put on a razor edge. I still strop the burr but all the old stones are gathering dust.
Regards from your left/right/push/pull sciver
Brendan

[fred_coencped]

Nasser,The very first and most important bit of information transmitted from my mentor and teacher in 1973 was"make sharp the knife"!The next was making thread ,then came the last.

So I am curious to know your turn allowance for a 3/4oz.french calf and the profile of your finished skive before folding.My machine method works exceptionally well with patent leathers,where wetting is not possible.Whatever works for the desired consistant result is always good,I agree.

Although I handskive on marble I am on the lookout for a curved piece of glass and think I could skive my uppers by hand if I needed or even wanted to.

The machine is still an excellent tool for splitting and paring{skiving} and I would not like to be without their service.

I guess your warning and experience with the exacto knife is good advice.I think your teacher and mine must be from the same old school.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and your good works,I promise to start posting some of mine too,soon.

Fred

[dearbone]

Greetings Fred
So i wonder how many of the three words of wisdom from your mentor you end up keeping? the general rule for thicker leather,(French calf)or thicker,the skive is made a little deeper(wider) for 2/3 oz calf i allow 5/6mm for the fold,but since i skive by hand,i skive just a little above the fold line so that the edge remains strong at the fold.
The thing with machines of any sort is that once we get used to using them,We will give up and forget the old methods,one look back at your country men/women work in the 19c proves my point.
Brendan,
I think i will go to Lee valley and look for that stone sharpener you mentioned, my teacher had a good one,i sharpen with fine emery cloth,mounted on a 2by4 and clean the access with Rouge leather.
Regards Nasser

[dw]

Just thought I would post a little photo essay of this technique...I am in no way asserting that it is the only way, and in fact I am sure someone could find about a half dozen faults with my technique but the proof is in the pudding and the results speak for themselves.

The first photo is of the turning template. I am dead sure that as others have pointed out the human eye is capable of seeing one-sixteenth of an inch, one-thirtysecondth of and inch and even one-sixtyfourth of an inch. I have never tested it but I am sure that I can. I can cut one-sixtyfourth of an inch.

I can probably turn, freehand, to within one-sixtyfourth of an inch of discrepancy but I am not sure that I can do it consistently. By that I mean that the rounded corner at the top of the facing will have the same radius on all four corners. This method allows me to do that...every time.

7416.jpg

This second photo shows the quarter turned over the template. The leather was skived with a Fortuna bell skiver, but I have done the skiving with a Tina knife--that is the way I was taught as well. To tell the truth, however, I like the results with a Bell skiver--it is very consistent and controllable. In the photo the turning edge was slit for tension relief and wet. Then a thumbnail is run along the edge of the template lifting the leather to be turned up and pressing it into the edge of the template. Since there is cement there the leather sticks...standing up vertically and tight to the edge of the template. Then a finger or a molding tool pulls the leather over to adhere to the template.

7417.jpg

When the leather had dried, the template is carefully removed. This will leave the turned edge loose but ready to stick back down at any time. You have to be a little careful but you can also slip a topline tape in under the turned edge before re-cementing (to get cement onto the tape) and pressing into place. Because the leather already has been turned (and gently hammered) it just falls into place. I will then French skive the turned edge so that it blends perfectly into the fleshside and there is about 2-3 millimeters of unskived leather along the turned edge.

7418.jpg

The final photo shows the turned quarter. Notice the perfectly straight edges on the strap aqnd towards the heel. Notice the subtle curves on the end of the strap and the clean curve in topline and quarter. I can lay all four patterns right on top of each other and they will be virtually identical.

7419.jpg

There's lots of ways to do this but especially for beginners, or old bootmakers like myself who were never taught to turn edges--I don't think I've ever seen more than a half dozen boots with turned edges--this is one alternative.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

DW,
Your technic is a good one and it will produce a good turn edge,I score the turning edge by using the pointy end of of my cuting knife(thin blade spring blade)as Brendan described,i lift the leather against the plain edge of the pattern and i get a good line where i should make my turn edge, you can almost turn without slits if your folding line is correct. I have to add that your method is %100 proof.
Regards Nasser

[dw]

Nasser,

Thank you.

I'm not sure what you are describing with the awl end of your clicker knife...any way you could clarify that?

As for turning without slitting...I know some think that it is the best way...and maybe it is...but I don't like the tensions that are set up particularly on inside curves. And I think that no matter how good at free hand turning you are (or any other kind of turning, for that matter) omitting the slits will tend to distort your turned edge...you'll have to fight to get the edge down and on the correct line, in other words.

That said, I turn with a greater turning margin than many...a leftover from my bootmaking where the rule of thumb is that it is easier to take off where there is too much than add back where there is too little. But using the French edger to blend the turned edge into the flesh, I probably reduce that width by about half. And since I do not slit all the way to the edge of the template, there is always a thin margin (well within the sewing line) where the leather has not been slit. I think you can see that in the photo above. So, in the end, the effect is probably similar.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[fred_coencped]

DW,Nasser,Brendan,
DW,your tutorial is excellent.Your turn allowance looks to be about 5/16ths" and reminds me of a tecnique we use in handbags,utilizing a "stay" material,basically any paper/cardboard material.
This is the template.Approx.1/8th" cut from the edges with about 1/8th" bridges cut every few inches.After the material is turned the inside portion of the stay material is removed.The finished work is always true to the stay pattern.

Avon tape in Brockton,Mass.Tel,# is 508/584-8273,they are now supplying bonded leather and other shoe supplies.They sold there product line to Ideal Tape in Lowell,Mass.#978/458-6833 and supply a myriad of top line,reinforcement tapes and a very thin stay material that has strength in all directions.The sample piece I have is # 3261W/liner.It has a sticky back adhesive and release paper.I think it is good for eyelet stays as well.They used to supply sample boxes of tapes and materials and have been very accomodative to me.
Another material is #1600 Non fray eyelet stay,a few years ago 36"X45"sheets with and without adhesive were inexpensive.
I just called Ideal and am awaiting to here back from them to freshen up on my supplies.

Nasser,You are right about our heritage and the hand skiving abilities should not be abandoned or lost.I have many knives for cutting and skiving and use many types of stones.My favorite is a final honing porcelein from an old toilet bowl tank.When I asked Seymour Askanazi,my mentor and 1st teacher where did you get that stone ,he brought me into his bathroom and pointed to the toilet bowl tank and I was amazed.I still have the same piece from 1973 and it works beautifully on all curved knives,including clicker knife and curved Tina knife.

Brendan,That knife both you and Nasser mentioned where the blade starts about 4 to 5 inches long and about 1/4"wide is pinched into a wire type handle with an awl on the opposite end I know as a Marcus knife as I use to see it advertised in the80`s in Arpel handbag magazine.I understand the handle can not be obtained anymore.I use it for cutting patterns and leather and keep the blade with a slanted point.The clicker knives I like the curved point.
I also use a push knife 2" wide with a slanted point for strap ends mostly and keep that honed with a hard Arkansas with Mineral oil for honing.

I wonder if anyone else out there in cyber space have seen or use the USM amazeen skiver.I have not yet met another leathercraftsman/shoemaker in over 30 years utilizing this machine, and to me the accuracy and time saved is totally indispensible.

Anyway thank you all for sharing your tecniques with me. OK

Fred

[dearbone]

DW,

You are welcome and i will try to explain myself better, the two methods are close,keep in mind that you turn against the plain edge of the pattern(template) and take out the pattern after you finish turning,i put my plain pattern(template) on the leather,glued or not,i put the round/pointy side of the cliker knife under the leather edge and lift it up agaist the card board edge of the pattern to create a fold line,if the turn edge is already glued,it will sit at 90 degrees or less to the edge of the cardboard(template),i can know see the wrinkles before folding,it is at this time when i pull out my cardboard(template)and procced to turn,i work the tention(spring) on the unslit curve centre to my advantige sometimes by puting it down first and move to the sides,i turn the fold with the awl side of the cliker knife very lightly,gives me a second chance to look,but i usually mark the end of the fold on the flesh side,so i can see the folds end area. I hope i have explained myself a little better with all my limitions.
Regards Nasser

[shoestring]

DW,

Let me see if I am understanding your approach here.Are you cutting your leather a bit larger and the template is the size of the actual counter/vamp pattern.Or are you cutting the template a bit smaller and the leather the actual size of your pattern.I was taught free hand but this is a ball park hit what you're doing,skiving I will leave free hand.It's always good to know how to skin a cat more than one way.I to have a porcelein tube used in the housing industry with electricians in the early 1900's,does well on my lip knife.

Ed

[dw]

Ed,

The turning template is made as a direct copy of the nett pattern. Then it is trimmed slightly...a millimeter, perhaps off the edge where turning will occur (the actual amount depends upon the thickness of the leather being turned).

Hope that helps...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dearbone]

They say a pictre is louder words,or something like that,anyways here is how I turn my edges.

7424.jpg

7425.jpg

7426.jpg

7427.jpg

[shoestring]

DW,

Got Ya.........

Nasser,

The cat is yet shown to be skinned another way,all options will be considered.

Ed