Closing techniques

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carole
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Re: Closing techniques

#226 Post by carole »

I have a small but simple problem- a wandering tongue! That is to say, I made a pair of men's brogued 8 hole oxford ankle boots for a friend and he loves them and says they are very comfortable. The one small problem is that the tongue often wanders to one side when he is wearing them and he is says this is mildly annoying.

I made these as a student, and am thinking the cause may be that the tongue was not lined up exactly when it was stitched and therefore may have been sewn on slightly askew. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what causes this problem? Also if I were to do a knee high lace up boot, is it inevitable that the tongue will move slightly to one side; or is there something I can do to prevent this?
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Re: Closing techniques

#227 Post by artzend »

Carole

If you make your tongue a bit wider and it will generally sit better than one that is a bit narrower.

You can stitch one side of the tongue to the upper this would have to be done outside the eyelets so the laces can be done up normally. It's really only a stay stitch to hold the tongue in place.

You can also punch two holes in the tongue and thread the laces through if there is enough room between the facings, but the stay stitch will work on boots too.

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Re: Closing techniques

#228 Post by dw »

I saw something the other day on a pair of Berlutti's that really enchanted me...threaded onto the center of the tongue was a fairly heavy piece of thread---hand sewing weight--and it created a loop. The laces fed into the loop from either side and kept the tongue centered. And the thread was virtually invisible. Very refined and very elegant.

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Re: Closing techniques

#229 Post by athan_chilton »

Carole, depending on the style of shoe or boot, a bellows type tongue would also keep the tongue centered better.
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Re: Closing techniques

#230 Post by courtney »

I just had a pretty bad time closing my new chukka's using a machine for the first time.

My problem was the stitching box or stay stitch.

the tounge is padded and the leather is pretty thick, about 6 oz.

first my box crossed alittle bit of the tounge and I think the difference in thickness from tounge to vamp might have been the problem?

then I moved the box a little lower but the leather would bind under the backside of the roller, [not the wheel but the flip up part]

I used a flat bed but I dont think thats neccasarily the problem since it was messing up on the first quarter when it was still flat?

I'm pretty sure it would be a lot easier with thinner leather and a unpadded toung but I still have the bulk of the folded linings I'm trying to keep out of the way.

Any ideas?
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Re: Closing techniques

#231 Post by courtney »

Also, I think probably the folded linings hat a lot to do with my problems, if I moved the box down about 1/2 in. below the point of the quarter it was O.K. is it tottally wrong to have it this low?
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Re: Closing techniques

#232 Post by artzend »

Courtney

You don't need to fold lining edges. It's better if you don't so as to keep the joins as flat and smooth as possible so they don't rub on your foot.

Normally the stay stitch is at the point where the tongue joins the vamp, if you move it down, this area can become exposed if the tongue rides down. It would be best probably to reduce the amount of padding, or the width of the padding so it doesn't interfere with the rest of your patterns.

Coming off a thick area such as a padded area onto a much thinner area can cause stitch problems sometimes.

Photos would help a lot.

Tim
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Re: Closing techniques

#233 Post by courtney »

Tim, thanks.
I meant folded out of the way.

I'm not sure if you would see anything in the photos besides me unpicked 3 stitch boxes and my mangled quarters. reducing the length down the tounge of padding is probably a good idea.

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Re: Closing techniques

#234 Post by romango »

I'm not sure I am following the problem exactly but, generally speaking, be careful that any place where panels join... perhaps the tongue and vamp in your case, is no thicker than a single thickness of your leather.

You can do this by careful skiving.
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Re: Closing techniques

#235 Post by courtney »

The tounge and the vamp are one piece, but the tounge is at least 6oz. plus padding mabey 3/32, and then lining. closed to the quarters that are skived.

I think when I pull the lining out of the way so it doesnt get stitched in it is making a a hump under the already thick tounge and then the whole thing gets kind of stuck under the flip up bolt side of the wheel.

Then if I can get it past there it goes to the pretty thin area of the quarters.

I dont really know what I'm talking about, like exactly what the problem is, but thats my guess.

Any Clairevoint shoemakers on here?
luckyduck

Re: Closing techniques

#236 Post by luckyduck »

Hey Courtney,

I had a real problem with that myself when first using the machine.

I use my post machine for this. By thinking ahead about where the wheel will be as you do the box you can keep the lining off the top of the post and it works pretty good.

This is also an experience thing to know if you need to lighten up the wheel pressure in the turn and if you want to stitch it all forward or go a few stitches hand turning the wheel. What helped me was to take some scrap material (like your previously mangled parts) and make up pretty much the detail you are working on. After doing a half dozen or so in a row you can work out your method. As a slow learner it probably took me 15-20 tries to figure out when to start where, how to hold the pieces and all that.

Think about sometimes it is easier to make a box by going forward, then sideways by stitcing one stitch at a time and positioning the needle where it needs to go manually instead of always using the machine feed. It is really only about a dozen stitches, so you don't need to be super fast.

Keep practicing, it is a tricky spot with all the peices coming together there where it is hard to see.

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Re: Closing techniques

#237 Post by courtney »

Thanks Paul,

Thats a good idea to make a mock up first till I figure it out and ruin all the many hours I put in!

I will finish making the mangled shoes and at least see how they fit.

Courtney
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Re: Closing techniques

#238 Post by dw »

Anyone know what the purpose is for the short line of stitching just under the topline stitching at the back of the heel on some men's dress shoes?

I see it on lots of high end English shoes. It's always about an eighth of an inch below the topline stitching, about two...maybe three...inches long and centered at the back of the heel. I'm not convinced it is all that attractive, so it makes me wonder if there is a mechanical/functional reason for it?

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Re: Closing techniques

#239 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

My guess is that it serves two purposes. First, to add a bit of additional strength across the back seam, and also perhaps to eliminate some stretch there? Further, it allows you to get at the top and bobbin threads and pull them between the upper and liner for trimming and melting.

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Re: Closing techniques

#240 Post by noonan »

That's right...to reinforce the topline at heel.
Better made shoe have a "hurley" or "dog ear" built into the pattern, so you don't have the back seam getting rubbed every time you put shoes on/off. The dogs ear always goes to medial side.
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Re: Closing techniques

#241 Post by dw »

Tim, Lance

Thanks!

I almost always use a dogtail...unless, of course, I have a heel piece...so i guess I don't need to worry about it, eh?

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Re: Closing techniques

#242 Post by john_woodward »

DW, I used a schmetz #16 needle ( triangle tip),46 thread, on an Artisan 5110 post machine.I have singer post that works fine as well. I did not block it..Let me know if you have further questions.
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Re: Closing techniques

#243 Post by dw »

John,

Thanks for the info. The thing I want to know is how did you stitch through the beads?

Every stingray I've seen the beads have been terribly hard--deflecting and blunting needles. So that the stitch is erratic and the needles break pretty often or are in danger of breaking.

And how did you cut through the beads to get a straight and smooth facing/topline? (I've often thought of using a small dremel saw.Image )

Can you offer some tips? And/or (and I don't mean to put you on the spot) some close-ups of the top line?

I have two fairly large and nice, brown, stingray skins that I might not use if not for shoes.

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Re: Closing techniques

#244 Post by john_woodward »

DW, I start by doing a good job of skiving as you would assume. Your top bead and liner should be thin as possible as well. I use as little glue as possible so you don't have that extra bit gumming up your needle...I sew the liner on loose, no glue at all.... But you still can't sew through those beads...they will fracture and if it doesn't break your needle it will probably cut your thread.You won't make a pair without breaking several needles......I sew between the beads....you have to go very slow....sometimes using your hand to turn your machine over, letting the needle slide down between beads
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Re: Closing techniques

#245 Post by john_woodward »

continued from last: Your bottom thread will never be straight, but it will be flat, and acceptable.. I use some magnifier glasses so I can see between the beads really well...Most people who saw the shoes thought they were not stitched....the thread lays between the beads and down into the hide....More coming on patterns.
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Re: Closing techniques

#246 Post by john_woodward »

Patterns for wholecut stingray: I used the same pattern I use for other wholecut leathers, calf etc.... I'm sure any shoemaker properly schooled in pattern making will tell me my method is not correct and won't work. I'm sure they are right...Let me note before I tell you my method that does'nt work,.. patterns for all my lace ups have the vamp point moved up toward the cone 10 mm...I just like the look....Ok...I start with the same standard I use for my oxford, including all allowances,lasting, heel,counter etc...oops ran out of room again.....continued
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Re: Closing techniques

#247 Post by john_woodward »

continued from last: I failed to mention I hand stitched the back curve on stingray...machine stitch won't hold, the beads will cut them...PATTERNS: All I do is take my oxford standard...line up the end of the toe and the top of the pattern ( above last lace hole on pattern) on the fold fold line of piece of paper. Trace the pattern, open the paper and cut your pattern....Yes will add about an inch excess last allowance in that area...I observe that and recut another pattern removing it before I cut my leather.
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Re: Closing techniques

#248 Post by dw »

John,

thanks for that detailed description.

A follow-up (or two) if I may...what do you mean about doing a "good job of skiving?" The reason I ask is that all the stingray I have seen has a sort of fibrous net on the "flesh-side." I'm not sure it is skivable.

Did you "back" your stingray at all?

How about cutting out the pattern? Did you just cut with your regular clicking knife?


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Re: Closing techniques

#249 Post by john_woodward »

DW..it is fleshy, remove as much as you can down and into the bone( beads) you will actually take off a little of the bead.I use a knife for the last allowance area, then old scissors to cut the pattern and address the jagged beads later with a some type of sanding wheel ( i use a fordeom flex shaft to clean it up) dremel would work great.I touch up with dye prior to assembling...I have some lasting tricks for stingray that will help also, more about that tommorrow..... My wife is all dressed up with no place to go.
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Re: Closing techniques

#250 Post by dearbone »

To you all,

This is a question about the closing of the top of the "Four-folded tongue" (also i think called"full-bellows tongue in Field boot,I made two pair 15 years ago,but somehow forgot how i closed the top of the tongue and i have no actual field boot in front of me to look at but went by my own judgment and since i thought myself pattern making, not always sure is the correct method or some may call it the traditional method the tongue was attached in the field boot,So my question/request is, Does any one own a field boot in their collection/shop to look inside the boot to see how the tongue is looking from the inside of boot,a picture,a description,or any lead to solve this mystery for me will be awesome.The area in question is just above the white thread on top of the facing in the picture.
11630.jpg


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