Closing techniques

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Closing techniques

#1 Post by dw » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:46 am

I am quite involved with a student at present and haven't had time to do much but think about the semi-brogued derbys I am closing. Thinking can be dangerous and so it is...I am starting to obsess over the proper (meaning easiest and most elegant) sequence of lining them.

Do I line the vamp and the quarters separately? And if so, can I then stitch the vamp lining to the quarters?

Or do I close the lining and then "hang" it in the shoe?

I thought I knew how to close a pair of derbys but I've always closed the quarter curve right through the lining, and if I do it that way with these shoes I won't have any ability to put in a full length counter or sidelinings.

Maybe if I just went ahead and did it I'd be OK but, as mentioned I am otherwise occupied so...any advice would be appreciated--give me something to roll around in my head.

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Re: Closing techniques

#2 Post by romango » Thu Jan 24, 2008 9:46 am

DW,

I don't understand where your posts are going. I click on the "jump to this page" link, but the post is not there. The forum area seems to be correct.

Anyway, since making the Packers with you, I have made several pair of shoes with that method of attaching the liner directly to the quarters and vamp. I like this method but you are exactly right that it is then not possible to add side reinforcements in the prescribed way. For a dance shoe, this is fine. But if I want a more robust dress shoe, I think it would have to be a hanging lining.

I'm certainly no expert her but I thought I would chime in that I ran across the same quandary.

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Re: Closing techniques

#3 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:06 pm

To DW
Re lining head scratch. Run into this in the ortho thing all the time. Solution is easy. I may not use the right term for style but the Quarters over vamp wether an oxford or a boot. Cut you linings leave a 1/4 to 3/8 extra were the quarters attach to the vamp and the cut back towards the heel. Cement the quarters and stich the top edge to the stay stitches. Attach the lining to the tounge and sew and trim. When you close the quarter to the vamp, just let it fall away. sew up to the Quarters front edge, Lock and cut thread. Cement linings together the start sewing were you left off through outer and lining make you stay stitches and you are done. a slight variation but works well. I used to stitch my linings together but realized it add just another lump to the lining. Cement well and I haven't had a problem in 10 years. This way you can extend counters, side liners, of put a little fill into disguise a missing foot part.
If you can't follow me I'll try and post a pic or two
Hope this helps
Brendan

relferink

Re: Closing techniques

#4 Post by relferink » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:13 pm

DW,

An idle mind is a devil's workshop. Here's something to keep you busy in case you find yourself tempted to start that thinking business again Image
6766.gif
6766.gif (21.41 KiB) Viewed 3209 times

greater-than sudoku, where you get no clues; instead, every box is marked greater-than or less-than its neighbors.
answer

On a more serious note, I have seen people close their uppers both ways so there is really not wrong way.
I line my vamp, sewing around the tongue. Than line my quarters sewing from stay stitch to stay stitch. Slide the lined quarters and lined vamp together and sew the quarters to the vamp, not through the lining.
I do not always sew my lining as the seam can cause irritation to the foot, in that area there is noting to sink the stitch into such as a counter or toebox so it will be more pronounced in the shoe. If you want to sew you lining you should do that after you sew your quarters to you vamp.
Now I put in my stay stitches making sure I catch all 4 layers, vamp, quarter, vamp lining and quarter lining.

I have to add that I use a post machine for closing. On a flatbed this is a little more challenging but due-able.

Hope this helps

Rob

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Re: Closing techniques

#5 Post by relferink » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:19 pm

Sorry Brendan, didn't see you post before I posted mine.
Great minds think alikeImage. (and this time I did as wellImage)

Rob

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Re: Closing techniques

#6 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:34 pm

Hi Robert

Well great minds think alike, or fools seldom differ. What a coincedance. where were you when you wrote this? Next My wife and I were driving to work this am and hit a deer, minimal damage but when I got home I poured a Vodka and sat down at the computer to check the mail and de stress. HuMMMM. Closing quarters the same way at the same time. Is Alford Hitchkock lurking on this site?

Regards and happy to know some one agrees
Brendan

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Re: Closing techniques

#7 Post by dw » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:35 pm

Brendan, Rob,

Thank you both.

Now I have to comment and I hope you will both realize that I am a novice shoemaker and don't really know what I'm talking about. But I can't come to terms with not sewing the lining. It's just not my cuppa, I guess.

I think you both line your derbys pretty much the same way but I have run across this idea of not stitching the quarter lining to the vamp lining before and I wondered if it was because it was difficult to do. If I can line my vamp and then line my quarters and then sew my quarters to my vamp without stitching through the vamp lining and then...then still stitch my quarter lining to my vamp lining I will be content. That's the way I want to do it...I just didn't know if it was possible with a post machine.

Thanks again to both of you. Eases my mind while I'm twiddling my thumbs.

Now I have another question...over in "Bottoming Techniques"

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Re: Closing techniques

#8 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:51 pm

Hi Dw
Very easy with a post machine. I have a Pfaff post bed I wouldn't part with it fer' nothing. About being a novice since there is so few of us you are more Daring that novice. This technique was not taught to me by my the old Dutch master. Just something that was a problem an had to be solved. He also was convinced You could not crimp a boot vamp with out a steam press. well they did it before steam presses were invented soooo.

Regards
Brendan

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Re: Closing techniques

#9 Post by relferink » Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:25 pm

Brendan,

I was catching up on some email and such as well, I did however not hit a deer this morning and I have not (yet) gone for the Vodka.
Where did you learn to close? Maybe the Dutch connection at work? Who was it that taught you?


DW,

Brendan already answered that. Just remember that there is more than one way to get the job done. The fact that we don't do it doesn't make it right or wrong. (well a little wrong but you can still do itImage)

Personally I find the added bulk of a seam more troublesome than the thought of not haven a seam to hold it all together.

Just my Image

Rob

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Re: Closing techniques

#10 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:44 pm

Hi Rob and Dw
Ahhh friday night. Well you asked where did I learn to close? I will take this time to pay homage to my mentors, I used to work for Health and Welfare Medical services/Prosthetic services Canada. Started as ao/p tech from high school. after 5 years of poor ventilation I developed a severe allery to polyester resien and hardener. In the years i worked there I worked with Robert Patten AKA The Right Hounourable BOB. and Howard Relke. Bob was shot in the foot during the Dieppe Raid and Howard hade spinal bifida and they both learned to make footwear as they needed it. After I was told to quit working with plastics I moved from Regina to Edmonton to work with Mr. Fred Van Santen, He was trained formally in Holland as a Ortho shoemaker. He was a wealth of knowledge but refused to tell all. as per other posts. We did all work from last making patterns uppers and finishing. All these gents including Carl Wall who worked for Sask Abilities Council were all contributors to my education. I took every course avalible in Canada and states. Unfortunatly all these folks have past and the wealth of knoweldge went along.
Howard was more like a father to me and is the oldest knowen Spinal Bifida client in the world 78 years. Fred Van Santen defied the Germans to confiscate his shoe shop in Holland " You may have the Machines, But you need to know how to run them" he lived thru WWII and the emigrated to Canada in the 50's
These where the mentors who taught old world technique but appreciated the fact I could adapt one stream of knowledge to the next level. ie I caught Sh9t in "79 for pouring lasts from "prosthetic foam" from an Orthotist.

In the spirit of the HCC these were the gentleman who mentored me in life as a young man and a shoemaker I hold all of them in the Highest esteam. They all came to my wedding 25+ years ago and were friends till I had to dust off the suit.
With deepest respect
Brendan

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Re: Closing techniques

#11 Post by das » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:05 pm

Brendan,

Thanks for posting that just now.

It's a Friday night ya'all, right? So let's all lift a glass, or a kind thought to all of those dear souls, living and dead, who've salted our paths directly and indirectly, inspired and mentored us all--the "lost boys" (and girls of course) of the Gentle Craft.

I'll name: Lorenz Scrocco; Richard Alves; Frederich Engleke; Ernest W. Peterkin; Horace Batten, and "Raph" Salaman! Stories and bios there going back to 1913, but I'll spare you Image

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Re: Closing techniques

#12 Post by guy_shannon » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:41 pm

Hi Brendan

I'm Guy Shannon and I hail from a place called Prince Albert. Hey Homie GO RIDERS.

I took my training in the P.A. Shoe Clinic under Bruce Ahlsteadt. He was trained in a trade school in Windsor Ontario. I have since met many people I have learned from in Calgary through working at several shoe repairs and Alberta Boot. I actually left Alberta Boot in November to try construction, I am now in the middle of purchasing a shoe repair in Calgary but the draw to move back to Saskatoon is very strong.

welcome aboard
Guy

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Re: Closing techniques

#13 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:16 am

Hi Guy
Well nice to a local connection. Go Riders and Huskies. One guick question if you cut your finger do you bleed green or red. This should help you decide to move back to the "toon. As you probably aware real estate is going nuts in the old outback, Collect your equity and come home.

Do you have any experiance with hand made footwear? What did you do for Alberta Boot? I see some of their goods and they sure look nice.

I have never met Bruce but I hear people speak very highly of him, If I go north to hurt fish I might stop in and check out his digs.

Did you check out Sask Abilites in Saskatoon? Ian Weeks is the head of the footwear dept and they often look for poeple with experiance. If your near Fort Qu'Appelle drop by.
Regards
Brendan

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Re: Closing techniques

#14 Post by guy_shannon » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:56 pm

I bleed Green. My kids don't understand the watermelon though. LOL

I was in several areas for Alberta Boot. I started in sanding the heels and soles cutting sole leather with the clickers and then I started doing the set up with the uppers and lasts and making the insoles and attaching the ribbing, I am able to cut the uppers sew them last them sole them and finish them. I make a couple of pairs a year at home for friends but I am looking at getting right back into it.

I have been by Sask abilities a long time ago with a friend who's brother was getting a new prosthetic leg.

I haven't been down to Fort Qu'Appelle in ages. My grandfathers family is from there but he moved to Hudson Bay Junction in the 30's. I take the steep walk from a little hotel up to the graveyard about every 10 years or so, learned the hard way not to run down those hills. LOL

Have a great day

Guy

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Re: Closing techniques

#15 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Sun Jan 27, 2008 9:12 am

Hi Guy
Sound like you know your way around the shop. I clicked on your profile and saw a picture of you holding a RCMP High Brown. I wondered of you made those. I always wanted to make a pair, just never got around to it. I know the fellows at the Boot Shop at RCMP Depot in Regina they "fit them up" for the members. Alfie and I went to high school together.
If you have all those skills I would defenatly contact Ian as those skill don't just drop out of the sky. May be we should start a shoemaking school in the "great white north", Also the Riders are looking for Head Coach are you going to apply?
My two teen age girls 16 & 17 watch all the games and my oldest was born on greycup day 1990. My wife ran for Miss Sask Roughrider in the 80's. didn't win but sure had fun.
Regards
Brendan

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Re: Closing techniques

#16 Post by relferink » Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:05 pm

Brendan,

You have a good pedigree and posted a very suiting tribute to your mentors. It hurts me to hear about (old) makers that have such extraordinary skills but choose to take them to the grave in stead of passing them on to the next generation. Thank goodness for a place like the Crispin Colloquy.

Did you ever work with Johan Steenwyk? He worked in Regina before moving on to Edmonton and than Red Deer. This may have been later as he did not get to Fred van Santen's till the mid 1980's. If I remember correctly, he did not work with Fred but with his son Peter after Fred had passed on.

Al,
Very well put, I certainly have some dear soles that salted my path and lifting the glass accompanied by some kind thoughts is the least we should do.

Rob

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Re: Closing techniques

#17 Post by large_shoemaker_at_large » Mon Jan 28, 2008 8:22 am

Hi Robert
I know Johan, have since he moved to Regina. I will attest to his skills and runs a very good business out of Red Deer you can Google his web site. Over the years I have gleaned some of his knowledge. You fellows that have had formal training are lucky, to bad there is no equivilent in North America. I also worked with Peter, last heard he was working in London Ont. but haven't talked to him in years.
I looked at your web site, nice site. Did you and Johan attend the same college? It may be the same on Fred went to.

I just finished some boots for a fellow useing the lining method technique discussed earlier. He Had a Cavus foot and was "tickeled as H#ll" when he put them on. Will post pics soon.
Regards
Brendan

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Re: Closing techniques

#18 Post by dw » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:11 pm

Rob, Mack, Lance, anyone?

What is done with loose thread ends? I have several places on my derbys where I need to tie off a thread end.

On boots I generally pull the nylon thread to the inside, cut it short, and burn the ends. But this leaves a little unsightly black speck of melted plastic.

I am looking for another way to tie off the loose ends without a real knot.

Is there one...another way, I mean?


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Re: Closing techniques

#19 Post by artzend » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:48 pm

DW,

Mostly you only need to go back over the last 3 stitches and sew to the end. The only place on a derby that you need to pull the stitches through are when starting and finishing the box stitch on the quarters.

If you want to pull these through and tie them they won't be seen.

Tim
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Re: Closing techniques

#20 Post by lancepryor » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:58 pm

DW:

I don't really have any great ideas -- certainly, if you plan it out, there should be many instances where you can pull the threads into the space between the upper and the lining and tie it off there. That is one of the advantages to doing a hung lining, I think, since in general you have access to the entire shoe's lining/upper space. As I think you noticed in the upper I sent you, the closer had the whole upper and lining assembled before joining them, so obviously all of those seams could be tied off on the back side.
When he joined the lining and the upper, he started outside the heel, went all the way around, overlapped the starting point about 3/4 inch, then went down the heel 2 stitches, then finished along the top line to the same distance past the heel center line. Therefore, he was able to pull the end of the threads between the upper and lining and tie them off. For the start of the thread, because he had sewed over it a second time (functionally akin to backtacking), he could simply cut and burned it on the inside and outside -- because there is no knot, the thread ends are not really visible.

However, I have not yet tried my hand at a derby, so I don't know what might be feasible there. I hope Mack or Rob can help you out, because someday I have going to have to try one!

Lance

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Re: Closing techniques

#21 Post by dw » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:04 pm

Tim, Lance,

Thank you both.

I hate to overstitch where it can be seen but I guess that's what you have to in certain circumstances.

The only place I am fussing with is my tongue lining. I backed the broguing at the top of the tongue and when I sewed the circumference of the Tongue and the inner line of the broguing I found I had a spot at each side of the tongue where the loose ends could not be hidden between the lining and the upper. I probably should have overstiched there because three stitches would not have been seen as that part of the tongue will lie under the facing when the shoe is worn.

Anyway if you or anyone else has any othr ideas, I'd welcome them.

Thanks again.

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Re: Closing techniques

#22 Post by artzend » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:38 pm

DW

Maybe you could have done the brogueing only around the top part of the tongue because the holes won't show along the edges.

You could then blend the inner stitching line out to the edge.

If you have the holes going all the way down the tongue you could just stitch around the end of the last hole and out to the outside edge, to complete the stitching.

Can you show a photo or drawing of what you did, or what you are hoping to achieve?

Tim

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Re: Closing techniques

#23 Post by relferink » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:08 am

Brendan,

I'm not sure what lining technique you are referring to? Would like to see the pictures.

Johan did attend the same college, about a decade before I was there. I talk to him infrequently. I'm not sure where Fred went to school as I don't know what colleges were around before WW II. When my dad took his courses there were two colleges that later merged and the courses were moved to yet another college if memory serves me. The merger happened not to long after my dad graduated, that must have been somewhere in the '50. Currently the courses have moved to a different college again from where I took them. It must be that those darn stubborn shoemakers are hard to put up withImage.

Rob

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Re: Closing techniques

#24 Post by relferink » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:12 am

DW,

I'm not a fan of overstitching either. I do it for patch work but I prefer not to do it to new work.
For "structural" seams, those what would cause the shoe to fall apart if they came undone, I pull my threads in between the upper and lining, tie them off than melt the knot and press it flat. The unsightly dob of plastic will not be seen and by melting the knot I melt the upper and lower thread together to make it stronger.
For cosmetic seams I just bring the tread to the back and burn of the ends, no need to tie them together.

I can't envision the area on the tongue where you won't be able to bring the treads to the back side. A picture would help. Still it's sounds like it's not a structural seam so if there is no other way, cut the ends, take a needle and feed them down in between the upper and lining. A little bit of AP cement will keep them in place.

Just my Image

Rob

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Re: Closing techniques

#25 Post by dw » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:52 am

Rob,

Actually some years back I got so disgusted with the little black specks on the lining of cowboy boots that I developed a way of hiding all the tie-offs--and it was exactly as you describe. In fact, I even included a sub-section in the last chapter of my books entitled "Fly Specks on the Lining." But my wife, who does a lot of the top assembly never took to the process...sometimes there are a lot of tie-offs on the back of a top...so I had kind of forgotten about it until you mentioned your method. [Like someone said here recently, old age tends to dull the memory and when you are trying to learn something new, sometimes the old, unused memories get pushed out.]

Anyway, I'll post photos later today...it is fussy, but I found it pretty quick for the limited number of tie-offs I needed to deal with this morning.

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