"The Art and Mysterie..."

Share secrets, compare techniques, discuss the merits of materials--eg. veg vs. chrome--and above all, seek knowledge.
Message
Author
donrwalker
2
2
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 1:48 pm
Full Name: Donald Ross Walker
Location: Spring City, UT, USA
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#376 Post by donrwalker » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:30 pm

Paul

I have a wood lathe as I'm sure other members do. If I had the dimensions it wouldn't be a difficult thing to turn.

Don

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#377 Post by dw » Fri Jul 16, 2010 5:41 pm

Tom,

That's why it's called the "Mysterie". Image

Even two blockers cut, right across the backbone from each other, will crimp differently. And you're begging for problems cutting front blockers from a side.

Donald,

I'll see if I can't come up with some measurements. I have a wood lathe as well but I've never tried to make one of these.

I will say this--it needs to be a dense, close grained wood like boxwood or holly or dogwood (nee American boxwood)...something that could be threaded and not chip out. I think mine is boxwood--the ideal. But if you are rubbing leather the last thing you want is coarse grain or open pores to abrade the finish.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

paul
8
8
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#378 Post by paul » Sat Jul 17, 2010 5:48 am

Tom,
Hey, I'm glad the topic pulled you onto the board. It's good to hear from you.

I too found I was using my fingers on this last one, looking for the point that would become the center, moving the leather a bit both ways on the board, until I found the place where the leather was distributed evenly, being careful not to lock any pipes into place.

It's a good point and one I'll play back in my head when I do the next.

I don't know why this critical "cran" didn't sink in sooner. Just leaked out of one of the holes in my head, I guess.

I haven't had that problem of twisting vamps on full cuts yet (thanks for the warning), but I sure have with Ostrich. It really makes you wonder what's going on. I guess it just goes with the territory.
Share a picture of your next pair when you get them done, ok?

Cool Don,
Let me know if you give it a go. I might be interested.

I appreciate the input and support guys.

Paul

(Message edited by paul on July 17, 2010)

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#379 Post by dw » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:41 am

When chasing pipes I try to chase them from the blade edge to the sides of the board. There is certainly some redistribution of the excess up or down the blade but my real focus is to move that surplus to the sides. If I can, in due course, tighten the leather so that it is tight to the blade edge without any pipes, what is on the sides can be moved in all sorts of directions and on a "broader field of play," so to speak. Once the leather is tight to the blade edge with no pipes it is nearly impossible for pipes to form on the blade...unless pipes have already been allowed to form there.

When a pipe forms, to the degree that it is ignored or allowed to "set"...the leather tightened down around it...it is almost impossible to completely remove, in my experience, even if the blocker is removed from the board and then re-crimped. Why? because the formation of the pipe stretches some leather (in the pipe itself) and compresses other leather (in the wrinkle). Like creases in a shoe, the fiber mat has been rearranged...fibers broken or thinned...and they cannot be put back where they began. So the leather will always want to re-crease/re-form in that configuration.

We couldn't make full wellingtons if leather didn't behave in this manner. The fact that we can stretch/shape leather and have it hold its shape is entirely due to that rearrangement of fibers.

Don,

With regard to the "stick," it is 16" long and 1-3/8" in diameter. This is measured at the widest point(s)--at the top of each of the rolls.

The "handles" 3 inches long and 1-3/8" x 3/4" at the small end. The handles themselves can be used as a rub area, too.

The "rolls" are, as mentioned, 1-3/8" in diameter at their highest points, and they are 7/8"(-) apart--from center of roll to center of roll.

The "valleys" are 1-1/8" in diameter and they are 7/8"(-) apart--from the center of the valley...the low point...to the center of the next valley.

Hope that helps.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by admin on July 17, 2010)

big_larry
4
4
Posts: 159
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:00 am
Full Name: Larry A. Peterson
Location: Ephraim, Utah, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#380 Post by big_larry » Sat Jul 17, 2010 6:06 pm

Paul & D.W.,

Thank you. As soon as I get some leather in and get on the boards I will go for another pair.

I really appreciate both of you.

Larry Peterson

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#381 Post by dw » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:59 pm

I think it was Al Saguto who once remarked that the full wellington is the most elegant of boots, the most difficult to do and the most extravagant of leather.

Once upon a time, I thought (and still do to a different degree) that if I could only make one style of boot it would be the full wellington. Simply because it will test you and teach you and to do it well is a milestone in a maker's career. That's why the book is "Bootmaker's Choice".

Nowadays, I realize...well, I always knew it but I am trying my best to make it so...that the real measure of any maker, bootmakers not excepted, is not mastery of one style but as many as possible. Including shoes.

Don't give up guys...everyone has to learn to walk before they can run. And learning to walk always involves a lot of falling down. Heck, if it were easy everybody would be doing it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#382 Post by jesselee » Sun Jul 18, 2010 8:57 am

Paul

Yes, I did mention that technique. Its called 'breaking', but aptly a bicycle pedal technique. I have had a few instances in the past with what you call 'pipes'. The leather was a 5/6 oz. Oak tanned (I usually work to mid/late 1800's specs which would be a 2/3 and 4/5 oz. Oak tanned. During the early part of the 1800's one could specify how much 'stretch' was in a hide order, and for fronts for Full Wellingtons one ordered a light stretch. Towards the end of the 18oo's the stretch became more consistent like today. Many styles of crimping machines were invented to do the work by pressure. A neat little tool is the 'edge cimper', which is essentially a half moon shaped pair of blocks with groves cut in them like a cog. The bottom one has wide ends to where the cut pattern is wetted and stretched over. The top piece is screwed down with a big wooden screw stretching the edges to be crimped on the crimping board. This produces an accordian effect. The leather was left on there to dry for a few days (you would do as many pairs as you had edge crimping blocks. Then a good soaking of the fronts and they practically pull themselves over the crimping board. So, just like 64 to the inch, when you read about those Masters who could crimp 100 fronts a day, it was all in the leather, tools and techniques. IMHO, y'all are reinventing the wheel using leathers which historically were never crimped, or available, thus pipes. 98% of my boot work is Full Wellingtons and 'One Piece bots', imagine only a seam at the back or inner side seam. Don't try this at home, it makes a frustrating attempt at Full Wellintons a breeze at best.

Cheers,
'Ol Skool' JesseLee

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#383 Post by dw » Sun Jul 18, 2010 9:13 am

JesseLee,

If I'm visualizing it correctly I can see how an edge crimper would help immensely.

It would be better, however, if we could see a photo or an illustration of the tool. Any chance of that?


Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#384 Post by jesselee » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:11 am

DW

Not sure when I can get pics to you detailing it, but I can get the illustration to you. Its quite the tool.
Getting back to the topic, I wonder hw the readied backs and fronts y'all are making for your boots look to patten. During the Civil War, the front was not as wide as the backs, which show a consistency of measurements no matter the size. In other words, backs were a generic pattern with a straight cut edge for stitching from the top of the counter to top of the boot. From top of counter to bottom, the measurement was the same ie. fold the top of the counter up and its the same as down.
Looks like y'all are making straight sides on your front patterns as opposed to CW patterns which flared out below the counter stitches area toward the bottom and above the counter going almost straight up (leaning the cut a bit towards the back) and then taking a curve towards the back and then almost straight up.
This is illustrated in period patterns and observable in boots whose side seams have been blown out.
Around 1880, the back and front of the FW become equal, thus being able to sustain the lines of the scalloped top and the front cuts go straight.

Cheers,

JesseLee

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#385 Post by dw » Tue Jul 20, 2010 6:54 am

Jesse,

Great! I'd like to see it...maybe even think about reproducing it.

As for the cut...the fronts are cut to flair at the bottom--from the throat line down. This is the only way we can control for heel height.The tops above the heel stiffener flair to the pass line and then run straight to whatever measurement is necessary to accommodate the calf.

The backs flair to match the heel stiffener which is roughly an inch wider at the insole line than it is at the throatline. This is in accordance with the heel stiffener which needs to conform to the last, which in turn is roughly an inch wider in circumference at the swell of the heel than at the throatline level.

Otherwise, above the throatline, the tops, front and back, are identical...although I have made backs wider than the fronts. In fact, I have made quite a few backs that are wider than the fronts from the passline down, but otherwise the same. That leaves the topline and the scallop easily matched front and back but the front looking a little more balanced vis-a-vis the backs..

I like the looks of a wider back but don't see any fit or functional advantage making it that way and I don't teach it nor do I ordinarily make it that way.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#386 Post by jesselee » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:35 pm

DW

Great description, that's what I thought. I finished the 1864 drovers boots a month or so ago. They have a matched front and back, which could be recut to a matched scalloped top. perhaps they did this after the war. I also notice that they go on easier. Before I broke my ankle I was a big fan of a small throat that almost hugged the ankle. Now it must be a bit wider.
As for the crimping block, I can email the scan and instructions. When mine get sent up to me I will include pics. I have made a few pairs, but you know wood so it should be no problem. I am planning to make copies of my old set.

Cheers,

JesseLee

paul
8
8
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#387 Post by paul » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:28 pm

Somewhere above we were talking about GH French Calf that had some troubles with the finish. I mentioned that I have a set of vamps that had checked on me real bad, and that I had thrown them in a corner after ordering a new piece for the pair on the bench at that time.

I knew what I might use them for, and now I have.
11648.jpg
11647.jpg


I also had some trouble at that time chasing all the wrinkles from the throat. I chose not to turn them grain side out as I thought the pipes showed less on the flesh side.

But they were going to be perfect for what I was thinking.

Almost 20years ago a certain canned ice tea drink was test marketed in California. As soon as I saw the can design I knew it would make for a great boot top design. So I drew my interpretation of it.
11646.jpg

And I've been carrying it around all these years.

I did the "vest" as removable.
11645.jpg


I wanted them to be a "slipper boot", they don't hardly weigh 4 lbs., so I used a cemented on 7-8 iron leather sole with a Topy sole gaurd. The welt constructiuon is 'repairmans storm welt', from my inventory from back in the day. It is trimmed in real close to give a narrow profile.
Because I was concerned about the shank not being strong enough with such thin sole leather, I pegged in a very stout shank cover.
11644.jpg


The cuban style heel has a 1st layer of 18iron crepe with the rest of the layers of jacked leather lifts.
11643.jpg


I made these for myself. and now if I can just heal up soon I can get back in them.

Paul

paul
8
8
Posts: 1014
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:00 am
Full Name: Paul Krause
Location: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#388 Post by paul » Fri Oct 01, 2010 3:32 pm

One more icture of the full view with vest.
11650.jpg

goatman
1
1
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:35 pm
Full Name: Jim Knott
Location: Central Montana, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#389 Post by goatman » Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:39 am

DW, I have a question or three about a pic you posted over in the A&M Photo Essay - You posted it on May 5, '01 and it is a full Wellington, fully-pegged sole with a star. My questions are more about the pegging around the outside. 1. Do these pegs go through the insole? 2. If so, how do you 'file/sand off the pegs to prevent them from interfering with the person's foot. 3. If not, how is the sole held onto the insole without sewing? and my last question, 4. Did the old-timey shoe/boot-makers ever peg outside the foot area into the welt area? It seems that this would be ideal, except for the 'flexiblilty' of the welt, which I don't think would hold onto the peg very long, so I would guess that you would have to use a full sole thickness (11 or 12 iron?) for a welt which would probably be very hard to do. ...... just my curiosity getting the better of me .......

One more question, 5. Would 'chap leather' be suitable for welting material?

(Message edited by goatman on April 27, 2011)

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#390 Post by kemosabi » Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:57 am

Jim,
If you're up for some reading... There's lots of good info about pegging on this site.

I've found this useful: (just cut and paste into Google search bar) site:thehcc.org peg

I'll step out of the way now and let DW speak.

Cheers,
-Nat

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#391 Post by dw » Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:24 am

Jim,

The way I do it is first to whip stitch the upper to the insole. Then I add a 6 iron half-sole/"clump-sole".

I peg that on as close to the edge of the insole (I'm guessing) with one row of pegs short enough to just pierce the insole (I'm guessing) (in both cases it's an educated guess).

Then I put on the outsole and double-row peg it inset from the line of the clump-sole pegs. These pegs will be long enough to pierce the clump-sole and enter the insole. If the points just pierce the grain surface of the insole, I'm OK with that.

The pegs in the waist will pierce the insole fully and the last slightly.

When the last is pulled, there may be the tiniest indication of peg points throughout the forepart of the boot. These have to be sanded down. It's work...it's unavoidable. It's not necessarily historically correct.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

(Message edited by dw on April 27, 2011)

goatman
1
1
Posts: 21
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:35 pm
Full Name: Jim Knott
Location: Central Montana, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#392 Post by goatman » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:14 pm

Thanks Nat; I'll check that out!

Thanks DW; That explains a lot! I appreciate the explanation!

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#393 Post by kemosabi » Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:53 am

quote:
"It's not necessarily historically correct."
--------------------------------------------

Which part is not historically correct...sanding peg points?

Curious minds are; curious! Image

-Nat

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#394 Post by kemosabi » Thu Apr 28, 2011 9:04 am

DW,
Reminds me of an explanation you posted awhile back about sanding pegs.

"Wrap some sandpaper around your finger, stick your hand down the boot and scritch, scritch, scritch."

I think of this when I have my arm crammed down a boot and it puts a smile on my face!

-Nat

User avatar
dw
Seanachaidh
Posts: 5373
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 1997 10:00 am
Full Name: DWFII
Location: Redmond, OR
Has Liked: 39 times
Been Liked: 3 times
Contact:

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#395 Post by dw » Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:30 am

Which part is not historically correct...sanding peg points?


Well, the "clump sole was, as I understand it, usually put on over the outsole rather than under it.

As for the rest...well you'd be better off asking Al or Jesse Lee, or Tom, or one of the other re-enactor/SAS types when it comes to historical accuracy. I make no claims.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#396 Post by kemosabi » Thu Apr 28, 2011 12:06 pm

OK> I understand now.

Got to thinking...
I know you have your reasons for doing it the way you do (as usual); and as you've point out before, there's really nothing new. Seems like a good bet that someone in the past has also done it this way (and probably for the same reasons), just maybe none of that work survives today to prove it.

Heck; 150yrs from now someone will look at your boots and say "Yep...That's the way they used to do it"!

As always, Thanks for your input DW.

Regards,
-Nat

jesselee
6
6
Posts: 469
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:00 am
Full Name: Jesse Lee Cantrell
Location: Town of Niagara, NY, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#397 Post by jesselee » Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:33 am

Nat,

That 'clump sole' that DW speaks of is basically a half-sole and made to take the brunt of the wear. In the mid to late 1800's it was NOT skived as a half sole repair is today and had a rather unique shape at the waist end, sort of like an 'S'.
Pegs can be sanded after you float them. Many unworn machine pegged examples I have examined had very long pegs which were just broken off inside and left for the wearer to dal with.
Pegs can stick up through the inner sole to the point and a bit beyond with no bother to the foot. The boot is hammered at the sole on the iron last to flatten the point area of the pegs.

Cheers,

JesseLee

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#398 Post by kemosabi » Fri Apr 29, 2011 1:46 pm

Good to hear from you JesseLee.

Awhile back I was surprised to discover that pegs poking thru the innersole didn't seem to bother me much at all (and I have some of the pickiest feet ever. ) I'm not talking "peg forest" telephone poles type of poking through, but still a good bit of point standing up.

On the other hand I've had people with what I would call very tolerant feet, complain of the slightest bit of peg

Go figure...??? Probably has more to do with location than anything else. Doesn't seem like anyone would tolerate pegs on the tread-line. (even me).

---------------------
I'll have to try the iron last/ hammering trick. That sounds like a good one; especially if I'm getting tired of scritch, scritch!

Need to make a peg float... maybe a chunk of old file with a piece of thick rod welded to it?

-Nat

tomo

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#399 Post by tomo » Fri Apr 29, 2011 2:15 pm

Hey Nat,
I was going to make float from the rasps that horse dentists use. They're a little Tungsten carbide insert that attaches to a long handle - they'd work in any direction too. Food for thought.
T.

User avatar
kemosabi
5
5
Posts: 250
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:03 pm
Full Name: Nat Ledbetter
Location: Tennessee, USA

Re: "The Art and Mysterie..."

#400 Post by kemosabi » Fri Apr 29, 2011 3:46 pm

Wow Tom... That's thinking outside the box there brother! Never figured that horse dentistry may hold the answer to floating pegs.

http://www.horsedentistry.com/200series/shop_floats_blades_inserts.html

Looks like they would work though. I'll check the local vet supply and see what I come up with.

Thx, -Nat

Post Reply