"The Art and Mysterie..."

[paul]

(Message edited by paul on June 04, 2009)

[paul]

So I got one of my black french calf full cuts lasted yesterday. I'm a little apprehensive about not doing them both in the same sit down.

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I'm setting up to demonstrate boot making at our local Folk Arts Fair this weekend at the Sharlot Hall Museum, here in Prescott, the original Territorial Capital of Arizona. It's on the location of the original Govenors "Mansion", a log cabin really. Lots of Civil War stuff in the museum proper. And a pretty active Victorian Society. A great place for Full Wellintons!

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I plan to have this first boot ready for inseaming on Sunday, maybe after demonstrating making waxed ends.

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The mate will be cased and ready for lasting on Saturday, after I demonstrate prepareing the insole. I think I should be busy with it all day both days, what with talking and all, which I am want to do.

Wish me luck.

Paul

[big_larry]

Paul,

Really nice!

Larry Peterson

[dw]

Paul,

It looks as if those are going on the last quite nicely, I like the blue binding and are those blue pinstriped cloth pulls? Striking. I wish I could get something similar around here. They're nearly perfect for the overall look.

OBTW...good luck!! (not that you'll need it...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[paul]

Larry and DW,

Thank you to both of you.

I was excited about that pinstripe fabric. It was the only piece I thought I could use in the remnant display at Joanns Fabrics, the day I went shopping. I was alittle unsure but when I got it alongside the assembeled boots it was great.

As to the lasting, I'm a little concerned about the stitch pattern coming so close together right there at the throat. But I can just see the High Instep point on the last down inside, so maybe I'll be ok.

Thanks for the good wishes.

You said you were crimping a full welly this week. How'd that go?

Paul

[big_larry]

Paul,

I do not know whether your enquiry about crimping another pair of Full Wellingtons was for me or D.W.. Never the less, I am crimping another pair. This time I am using a tan struck through buffalo from GN. It is about 4 oz., and is a bit boardy. My last pair were made from a bit lighter leather with a 3.5 oz liner. The leather was quite soft and they did not tree up at all. The Pass line area is still tight and I wear them almost every day, (I like em' ya know.)

I have not been able to get the wrinkles out of my initial easy board working in just one sittin' so I work them with a polished bone and let them sit over night. Next day I wet them again, pull some more and work on the ripples. I beleive the cruel board working goes a whole lot smoother and faster if a really good job is done while on the easy board.

It is apparent that I will need to invest in several more pair of boards in order to get the production time in line with taking orders.

I am going to try something new on this next pair. Instead of trimming the excess leather , especially oround the vamp, I am going to pull it togather over the shank and interior build up, by stitching and gluing it like you would lace up a pair of regular shoe laces. By this I mean pulling it almost togather up the center of the bottom. If the sole is fully pegged, I see no reason why the leather wrap wouldn't aid in keeping out dirt and moisture. I will let you know how this turns out.

I would be interested in knowing if you will be stacking your heels? I really like to beat on them after moistening, like Jake Dobbins demonstration, and stacking them while they are still damp. They lay down at the edges better and you don't end up with space showing between the stacked pieces. I don't cut the first pieces, I just fit them on and cut a slice off the center where it is high.

I have rambled on a bit more than your question covered but I ddo appreciate you sharing your progress and beautiful work.

Thank you, Larry Peterson--HCC Member

[dw]

Paul,

Larry's remarks reminded me that I had unfinished business here... I've been on a working holiday this week--random hours, working on things but not pushing at all--maybe 5-6 hours a day. And working some on homepage edits requested by HQ.

I crimped the linings yesterday, however...went on the boards about as expected and with no problems--it's a 2-1/2 ounce veg--probably do the front blockers on Wednesday.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[dw]

Larry,

I often wet the heel lifts thoroughly and then let them dry back almost to dry colour before I start beating on them. Good, firm leather will become almost rock hard if they are then allowed to dry completely. If there is a significant amount of residual moisture, the fibers of the leather will puff right back up again and all your beating ("hammer jacking" is what I call it) is for naught.

Then when you are finishing the heel stack you moisten the stack (the exposed edges) and hammer them with the pane of your hammer. This is an old, old technique and closes up those gaps you mentioned.

My teacher used to stack heels when they were slightly moist but he also used standard, mild steel, carpenter's finishing nails to hold them on. He figured (correctly, I believe) that the nails would rust when they came into contact with the moist, acidic leather and nearly "fuse" to the leather. I've seen it and it's absolutely true...rusted nails are the devil's own to pull out.

But what it does to the leather is another thing altogether. I don't know about anyone else but I have customers whose boots I've been repairing for 25+ years. And when the heel stacks are nailed, about the third time you have to dismantle a heel, you have to start replacing lifts...maybe even the whole stack...because of the gaping, fire-blackened holes that have opened up around the the rusting nails.

Back to the thread...not all leathers are suitable for making full wellingtons. Boardy leathers are immediately suspect, but OTOH, glovey leathers are simply inappropriate for making boots...IMNSHO.

I have often thought...just speculating here...that if one could take a somewhat (there is a point of diminishing returns) boardy leather and crumple it and scrunch it and ball it up, about a thousand times and then cut your blockers you might very well do OK. And the inherent firmness of the leather would be re-established as the blocker dried on the board.

That, after all is what makes some of the veg cow we use for lining suitable--they do the same thing except mechanically...they mill it to create a soft hand but in the process, it also creates a lot of tiny wrinkles and texture that gets incorporated into the blocker. Of course milling also breaks and detaches some of the fibrous connections as well but if you had the patience you might do all that by hand. Who knows?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

[jesselee]

Larry and DW,

Old timer here with some tips, hope it helps.

Larry, if you are having a hard time with the wrinkles I am asking if you crimp with the grain side out? The whole process of crimping was for flesh side out, then you can remove all wrinkles properly. If the boots are to be grain out, crimp them flesh out first, then a second crimp grain out. No wrinkles. I wager y'all spend countless hours trying to crimp grain side out and taking so much care that you are on pins and needles I just don't have a clue as to new school boot making, and is why I assume that.

DW, you touch on some interesting points on the heels. Old school was not just beating the lifts damp. You soak 'em in really hot wheat past Modern sole leather at best needs treated to be old school. When I beat my lifts they are saturated with the wheat paste which hardens them, AND I grind off that flesh ropey stuff that is packed down. Then they are stacked and committed to a screw press to dry, using waxed paper between. This allievieated that nasty stringy stuff between the lifts that needs a waxed burnish to stay down.

Old school JesseLee

[big_larry]

Jesse Lee,

Thank you for the interest and instruction. I crimp my Full Welingtons flesh side out on the first board. I then re-mount them on the final or (Cruel) board to get a definative crimp. D.W is the most knowledgable person on the planet when it comes to this process, however, the purpose is to get a permenant "fix" in the area that bends (Short heel) area. This insures that the boot will be trim' and not be "saggy" around the ankels after a few wearings.

Going on to preparing the heel lifts, Tried smashing them with a "PEPE Press" but I couldn't determine any benefit beyond the hammering. I have yet to try wet wheat paste.

I will stop here and leave some room for D.W. to reply.

Thank you,
Larry Peterson--HCC Member

[dw]

Larry, JesseLee,

I don't know that I am the "most knowledgable person on the planet..." but one thing I do know very certainly is that with full wellingtons "there is no guarantee. "

I was talking to another colleague about this several weeks ago. And one thing that I told him almost off the top of my head was that "I spent a lot of years in the wilderness." No one ever taught me to make FW's. I just knew it could be done. And from everything I had heard and seen, it was asking for trouble to try and side draft full cuts as severely as I did my dress cuts. Yet that's where I wanted to end up. I spent a lot of years in the wilderness and you get kind of sun-burnt and wind-blown and crazy out there all alone.

I succeed about 90-95% of the time and I believe it is because in all that crazy time in the wilderness some fundamental principles sunk in, but that other 5% is always hanging over your head when you take this path. I might add that I might never have found my way without the help of lots of folks...some of them right here on this forum. In the end, I have to say I'm pretty satisfied with what I end up with when I make a pair of Full Wellingtons...what more can a bootmaker ask?

But my highest hope is that I've started a conversation and someone, somewhere, some day...maybe someone on this forum...will take what I've learned, and tried to pass on, and take it to the next level. And then maybe pass it back to me.

As for hammer jacking heel lifts...I've never heard of soaking them in wheat paste. I'm interested although I am hard pressed to imagine the lifts ending up harder than I generally get them. I suppose a natural wallpaper paste might substitute? What is the consistency when you mix up your soak, Jesse Lee?

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

I have noticed the side drafts and throats of your boots to have a dynamic unlike any others in your full Wellingtons. It's far different than 19th century fit, so those experiences in the wilderness must have brought you that skill.
I see that the cone of the last, sides etc are hugged giving a non slip fit, am I correct. In the old school, this dynamic was not the case and looking inside the boot at the last, the upper hardly touched the top sides.
As for the wheat paste ie wallpaper paste method. I make the paste semi thick, but not enough to soak paper. It must be HOT and that hardens leather after the paste is soaked in as a filler. The hammering is done first to loosen the fibers, then paste soaking and screw pressing. I only do thi for my high end stuff a it is a labor intensive process. But, I find that the soles and heels done like this burnish hard and glass smooth. Maybe I will make a video of the process in my new shop.

Cheers,

JesseLee

[dw]

JesseLee,

Your comments regarding "old-tyme" fit confirm my own observations and the observations and knowledge of those more in tune with historical examples than I ever will be.

And yes, you are correct...I want that hugging of the last that you have noticed. My experience has suggested that given the way leather needs to deform to assume the shape of the FW boards--stretching in some areas, compressing in others--it is mighty hard to get a secure fit in a full cut without compensating to some extent...hence the side draft.

Thanks for the info on the wheat paste. I'd really like to see a video and I'd really like to see a piece of leather done this way. I have wallpaper paste, I may have a go at it.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

I always admired that throat symatry that you get. I am wondering if you crimp the backs also? This was an early FW technique such as the Morocco FW's I am copying. There was also no welt in the side seams. I think a lot of the failure in modern historical copies not only comes from using the wrong leathers, but also depending on straight lines.
One thing that needs pointed out in this forum is 'straight line equals a curved line and a curved line equals a straight line and that passes on from one seam to another.
For example, notice the extreme draft on 1800's metal patterns for instance. The early 1800's FW's are completely cut different from mid 1800's patterns and use special boards. They will be interesting to make. Then perhaps some ridged Hussar boots for the display cabinet.
My new place is 2,400 square feet right off my kitchen, and will be big enough for me to start sharing techniques using my vudeo equipment and the wheat paste 'secrets' may be where I start.
I am also wondering if you use special formed lasts for this effect and, if it eliminates that wonderful ankle wrinkling that Civil War boots have.

Cheers,
JesseLee

[dw]

JesseLee,

Yes, I crimp the backs. It has more to do with the way I cut and mount the heel stiffener than trying to affect the final shape of the boot...although come to think of it, the way I pattern, cut, and mount the heel stiffener has a lot to do with the final shape and fit of the boot.

I looked hard at some of the blocker and castor patterns from the 19th century although I never got so detailed as to which part of the 1800's they came from. But it was there, in those patterns, that I made the final breakthrough in my techniques that allowed me to adjust for heel height.

Part of my approach...right from the beginning...was to use the skills and "philosophies" (if you want to call them that--maybe "theories" would be a better word) that I already had, and which were solid for dress wellingtons, applying them to my full wellingtons. I didn't want to have different lasts or different assembly techniques or a wildly disparate understandings of what should happen when I lasted the boots.

It always seemed to me that the more basic boot (despite being severely more difficult overall) was the FW. If a maker's theories work for full cuts they ought to work for dress cuts. So, since I started with four piece boots I had to reverse engineer the techniques for two piece boots. That's when a guy looks around and finds himself alone in the wilderness.

As far as the ankle wrinkling...I would have to say that I probably don't get it near as much as historically correct boots do. But nearly all boots require some wrinkling around the ankle and over the instep to achieve optimal fit. Luchesse pointed that out in his book. And I am not trying to make historically correct boots. That said, in my opinion, most historically correct boots rely near exclusively on that wrinkling to fit at all. Almost like some sort of "automatic lacing." It works but not as well, I think, as if the boot is cut closer to the ankle.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[dw]

All,

I wanted to mention that I have been looking at a new leather that I think will be very nice for making Full Wellingtons.

Mind you, I have not made a pair of full wellingtons with this leather...I do have a pair of chukka boot with crimped vamps in the works...but it is a milled veg with a very nice finish and a great colour range.

The leather is produced in Germany by an outfit called Ecopell.

It is all natural and comes in weights suitable for making boots. My only reservation is that it is a little glovey, at least initially. It stiffens considerably when toggled or crimped (as all milled veg tans do) but never becomes stiff or boardy. Currently I am looking hard at the "Classic" line and a lining leather.

The lining is, in the first analysis, comparable to the Columbus Naturelle that some of us were using a couple of years back....which also came from Germany. It comes in natural cream colour as well as a black and also in a perforated version.

The N. Am. sales manager is Peter Kuklinski, 1.610.667.6001 or manofcloth@hotmail.com.

I can't try every new leather that I run across although I am, as I say making a pair of shoes from it. But for certain my next lining leather for FC's will be the natural Tara.

The crimped vamps I mentioned seem to have firmed up well but how that will play out in the long run is the critical unknown. If I were to hazard a guess I suspect that this leather will crimp up much like the GH French calf or perhaps a bit easier and end up being a touch (but only a touch) mellower than the French Calf. It appears to take a finish well.

If anyone else tries a side/hide for full cuts, I would appreciate your evaluations.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

Luchesse was correct about those wrinkles. Historical note: the more they wrinkle (as in examing old 1800's boots) the less of a crimp stress they had. Now, first time information. In the 1800's when you bought a hide, you bought by the 'stretch', meaning you wanted a tight stretch for the backs as well as brogans and work boots of the similar nature, and for the fronts you bought a half stretch, which made the hide easier to stretch. Today everything is maxed out in the stretch to get max dollar per square inch.
You are the first Master outside my own who taught me about a back crimp. Indeed it is all about the counter area and straightness of seam. This was a more custom aspect as typical FW CW boots and like work boots were not back crimped, thus the straight ahead rather than conttoiured throat when the boot is looked on from back or front. Also in the 19th century, the counters were lower to account for a better draft unlike English riding boots which have a high counter.
Now, to complicate matters even more, on topic, there is the 'ONE' piece boot consisting of a back seam so the back is contoured or an inside seam, which is crimped and block molded. I was the first to make these for CW reenactmenbt in the 70's in the pre- Mson Dixon formalized business, and of 4-6 oz. Oak tanned. Again it is a completely new species of animal.
The metal patterns came in tin and brass and of ajustable and stagnant patterns using estimated size measurements and corresponding increments. You will know this also: a perfectly proportioned foot has basic measurements and if a customer measures say a heel of 13 1/2 and puts the instep at 12, you know they measured wrong. I get this all the time and simply look at the length, call them on the mistake and ask them to measure and you can determine the instep.
As to heel hights, you are correct, the crimp and draft if done properly to the heel measurement gives proper throat and heel height means nothing ans it all falls into place.
DANG! I love this Trade/Craft!

Cheers,

JesseLee

[jesselee]

DW

I take it your FW's are completely lined, yes? Mine are not as it was not period, plus I have no clue as how to do that.
Historical tidbit. In 1872 the US Army started making a 3 piece cavalry boot like the old style Light Artillery boot. The reason for the vamp was leather conservation like how you see pieces spliced in the sides of CW period boots. The interesting fact is the technique. The vamps were not crimped! They were layed over the front panel, stitched into place, and crimped after the fact. This was a method used to make 2 piece cavalry and cowboy boots and why they sit like CW boots as opposed to the modern cowboy boot which has a vamp wich is pre crimped.
I have done this with maximum success.

Cheers,

JesseLee

[dw]

JesseLee,

Well, Luchesse also said that all boots lean forward some. I can't agree with that. I've seen too many vintage boots that were ramrod straight. The W.F. Atwood boot that was posted here is a good example. The point being, I guess, that no matter who it is, we all have a little different POV.

Your remarks regarding buying leather in the 1800s was fascinating. I never heard that.

Yes, my FW's are lined...to the toe. I use two, two and a half ounce veg tan for lining. Used to be people told me it was impossible to crimp full blockers from this weight of leather but if you have a little knowledge about leather and choose carefully, it's no problem at all. I can almost look at a piece of leather and tell you whether it will crimp up satisfactorily or not.

The lining leather mentioned in the post above will, I am certain, work well. Once it is crimped it is no more problem than lining any other boot.

The one thing you don't want is leather that is too soft and stretchy...for fronts or linings. If it is not a leather you would use to make four piece boots, it's not a leather you should use for two piece boots.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

The 'leaning forward' as Luchesse mentioned is a late 19th. century concept (mid 1880's and 1890's) as can be een in typical working cowboy boots. It references how the boot rested in the stirrup and was born from the 'fancy' 3-4 inch heels that were used on basically what was a CW period type last (ie. made for a max 2 in. heel) This is quite observable on examination of original boots. I have refrences in my book.

As to the leather re. bought by stretch, this was only in the FW era as I see it. Al may have a reference. But as anything old and lost, a common reference ie. a given, would be taken for granted so as to be lost in time.

Thanks for confirming my Holmesian observations on the lined FW. It is apparent that with a still lining and outer and bonded by glue, you would achieve a perfectly straight boot with little or no ankle wrinkling as the bonded crimps would be strong.

I agree about soft stretchy leather being unfit for the application. I saw a lot of this nonsense in farby CW boots passed off as FW's in the late 80's and 90's when we were crimping our FW's with correct 4-5 Oak tanned Virginia waxed leathers. I left Mason Dixon Seattle after the takeover in PA in 84 and still have the brocures showing the state of the art proper FW boots I'll scan one up for you.

My english 'houe boots of the early 18oo's that I am copying are of Morocce (dang the real thing is expensive). I never crimped Morocco before so it will be a real experience. On that note, a gent in CA who I am emailing is interested in the concept of 'house boots', which were a light weight FW, sometimes with glued soles, but very light and gentlemanly. I have several period references and am now intrigued to find more, but have had no luck.

Cheers,
JesseLee- coming atcha from the 1800's!

[dw]

JesseLee,

1800's, not cowboy, not 3" heels, but straight and I mean straight

W.D. Attewell boot

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

I hope you fellers don't mind me jumping in here. (After all I am a self appointed minister of the brotherhood of the full cut.)

But don't we mean Luchesse was saying a boot "should" lean forward a bit?

I think you guys would agree with me, but I just want to get this out there. I hope I'm right.

The point about forward lean seems to me, to go hand in hand with the points made earlier about the how wrinkles at the throat contibuted to those old timey boots staying on. So would the forward lean of the tops. Both provide stress against the instep in opposition to the heel.

And of course, all this is not to mention the fact that this leaning forward and wrinkling is the way the foot and leg cooperate at the ankle in walking. Thus it seems to me that both of these would naturally develope to some degree, in any style footwear the came above the throat line.

I hope both of you will please excuse me, but I'd like to correct a point.

The FW crimp, and lining it, as DW teaches, does not rely on glueing the break to avoid wrinkles. In face there is no glue at all there.
I thinks it's is a matter of the leather choice and the long boards. A chrome tanned lining {glued to a chrome tanned softee water buffalo, which would crimp very easily, would still wrinkle.

The leather of choice, as we have discovered is either a milled veg, or a quality veg/chrome retan. I believe this is because the veg tanning produces a fiber that will want to hold it's shape when it's dry.

And cetainly acknowledment is due to the angle of the boards, and the effort expended to get it to lay on the board.

,
Paul

[dw]

Paul,

I'd have to read it again, but I think you're probably correct. Although I am still not sure I agree with the basic premise that forward lean is good.

If wrinkles over the instep are wanted, a more backward lean would be preferable, in my mind (but still not correct). Then when the leg moves forward it will push the boot top forward as well and this will create a wrinkle. If the boot leans forward to begin with, then there is no surplus to create that wrinkle nor any forward movement when the leg moves forward. Personally, I fail to see how a boot that leans forward by default--before it has been worn for a while--would provide any pressure at all on the instep. Where is the pressure gonna come from? Certainly the weight of the leather isn't going to be enough.

I've always had the greatest respect for Luchesse but I think he's off base there.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

(Message edited by admin on June 10, 2009)

[big_larry]

Paul is absolutely right about the selection of leather IMHO. My first and only pair of FW so far, were made from a softer leather. Never again. They feel fine to wear, however, I never did get them to tree well enough to get the straight up look. I have some 3 1/2 oz pull up buffalo on the boards now but the third pair will will be a veg-chrome re-tan. I did glue the first pair lining to the outer leather and it does help with the shape.

I do have one question consirning the lining? What do you folks think about a thin pigskin lining, like they use in wallets, with a heavier 4-5 oz outside leather?

Thank you for the tremendous information comming from this topic.

Larry Peterson HCC member

[dw]

Larry,

You'll have a devil of a time crimping pigskin--been there, done that, bought the T-shirt and the cap.

The fibrous net in pigskin is too short and there is no real "grain." It's not rough out but what "grain" (corium) there is, is so thin and of such a different character than calf or cow, for instance, that it affords no strength to speak of. It will rip out on you 8 times out of 10.

I might add that I do always cement or glue linings tot he blockers. I don't cement or glue in the instep or vamp area...it's just like making a regular dress cut in that regard.

FWIW...

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC