"The Art and Mysterie..."

[dw]

Chuck,

You know some of this is so close to being lost forever that making up terminology is almost all you can do if you want to talk about it. "Pipes" however is a legitimate term.

As for "side draft," no, when I talk about side draft I am talking about narrowing the throat area. Actually, Golding shows it as an arc that starts about three inches (I would guess) above the throat line, widest at the throat line and extending all the way down to the bottom of the vamp. Here's (I hope) an illustration:

6275.png

The flaring at the bottom is partially a consequence of that side draft and partially a somewhat intuited (from old patterns) approach to heel height adjustment--just depends on how much you apply.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[big_larry]

Thank you,

That is much more clear now. I really appreciate you both shareing this informtion. I have a set of boards I made for the Full Wellington but at this point in time I think I will get in touch with Dick Anderson and have him make me up a set. I do a lot better after I see it done right. (Monkey see-Monkey do) This boot making was of interest to me as far back as 1987 when I first looked into a boot sch0ool. Now I find that it is intensifying. Today I experimented with using a double bottom soul on a pair of fitter boots. Big mistake! Oh well, I guess we learn from mistakes too.

Thanks again to both of you. I am going to get another digital camera and post a picture sometime in the future.

Sincerely, Larry Peterson

[paul]

Larry,

Thanks for telling us about your experiences.

I'm excited for you to be engaging in this boot making adventure. And with the objectivity that you have, you're going to have a grand time. I put my own adventure off for more than 20 years, until about 7 years ago. For me it turns out that it's like Joseph Campbell's edic, 'follow your bless, and doors will open up before you, even where there was none, and may not open for anyone else'. I'm lovin' it!

It has also connected me to a finer degree of quality from a previous time. I know that I'm acting it, before I'm really executing it, but such quality is an asperation, and I'm driven to do the best I can on each operation. This is necessary for me, because it involves a carrer long mind set from my shoe repair perspective, that "it's ok". The Ideal of the quality of 19th century craftsmanship, drives me to do better. And we find it here on this forum.

And let me say, a digital camera is a must! I've been without mine for a month now. (Please Santa?!) I did just do a quick purchase and return of a one-time-use digital camera with review on it, from my local Pharmacy. Not bad. It was twenty bucks or so, and had room for 25 shots. We only used 8 for a Christmas present brainstorm of my wife's, and had it developed. They did it as a disk and prints. It was under $5 for the developing.

ANyway, my point is I've found benifit from chronicling in this manner and I know you will too.

Good luck brother, and have a good holiday.

Paul

[chuck_deats]

DW,

Again, I think the differences are semantics, because most of my work is based directly on your excellent books, but I will pursue it little further based on the theory, “Never pass on the opportunity to learn something”.

The throat line measurement given in your books, (SH-1/2”)/4, is somewhat sacred and treated almost like a vertical baseline. Have tried reducing the throat line, (SH-1”)/4, and all I got was a boot that was very difficult to get on and off with no other improvements. The bell line and pass line, etc. above the throat are wider and the area around the insole is flared according to your taper stick based on heel height. Previously, was coming straight down from the throat to the insole and this was negating the hump in the counter. I have reduced all these points to formulas on a spread sheet (al la Koleff), transfer it to a CAD program, spline the points together, mirror and print full size for a pattern. I do not reduce the throat line measurement. Maybe you have already done that with the throat line calculation.

The Golding picture is interesting. It appears he does most of the top taper on the back blocker and very little on the front. Makes some sense based on the way the leg is shaped, but would make the front break-in wrinkle more predominate, I think.

BTY, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to All.

Chuck

[dw]

Chuck,

You're right...it's just semantics. The throat line formula, as you have it, is correct, and the same one I use on the Full Wellingtons. I probably flare the vamp a bit more below the throat line and this, combined with the deeper crimp from the "cruel" board makes a big difference in how and where the "vamp' sits on the cone.

Al Saguto once told me that he solves some of these problems by "over-crimping." that got me to thinking and from there I developed the cruel board and the taper stick I use with full cuts. If the vamp is sprung up very high it will still go on all but the lowest heeled lasts, and look alright and grip the cone of the last. but if the vamp is not sprung as much, the boot will only go...correctly...on higher heeled lasts. So, the upshot is that overcrimping is less of a fault than undercrimping...esp. with FC's.

I might add that the additional flaring at the bottom was not derived entirely from trial and error. I saw some very detailed photos of a mechanical blocker pattern and there was an adjustment in the mechanism to increase or decrease that flare. If I recall I saw this on several different patterns and took it a a clue/cue.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[chuck_deats]

One more time to thank Tom Mattimore for the FW crimping technique. There is no telling how much time I have spent studying his and DW’s crimping pictures. Just finished crimping G&H french calf, not perfect but no rips and best job yet. Got it down the first try. Did rip the lining before I figured something out.

Used a trick I don’t think I have read about. I use three irons, instep, heel and throat. Tack to the boards and install the irons, instep first, then throat, then heel. When the leather gets taut between the irons (flick the leather, there is a musical note just before it rips), remove the instep iron. Tighten the heel iron until you have all the strain the leather between the heel iron and throat iron will take and rub. Replace the instep iron, rub and tighten. Then remove the throat iron, tighten heel and rub. Replace throat iron, rub and tighten. Repeat until that magical moment when the wrinkles disappear. Most all rips occur between the irons and removing the instep and throat irons allows the strains to redistribute toward the top and toe. The replacement location of the iron will not be the same as where it was removed.

This may be old hat to some, and if I am copying someone, Thank you, but it worked for me (this time).

Chuck

[dw]

Chuck,

As the years have gone by I have taken to undoing irons and allowing the tension to redistribute more and more. You are on the right track, I think. I use two irons to begin with and I tighten the heel iron way, way out before I ever start drafting or tacking along the bottom (except for the three toe tacks). this accomplishes much of what you are striving for--it stretches out the bottom edge and the edge above the heel iron. Then I rewind the heel iron and begin drafting in the toe and tacking...and then tightening the heel iron some...and then repeating until I have 95% of the pipes chased out. Then I set the throat iron and tighten it.

On the cruel boards I use three irons just as you use. But I don't need to worry so much about ripping as the blockers are pretty much crimped.

I haven't had a significant rip in a number of years, actually (knock on wood) .

That said, I've never tried to crimp alligator the way Lisa Sorrel did!! All I've got to say about that is "Wow!!"


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[tmattimore]

Chuck
I sometimes will have to loosen a screw but only rarely. More often they slip off first. I used to rip a lot but I mostly just tighten them up a little at a time and chase the pipes out with a flounder or saddlers bouncer.
D.W. If there ever is a boot makers hall of fame Lisa Sorrel should be the first in it if for none other of her acomplishments then having the guts to crimp gator Yehaw!!

[chuck_deats]

DW, Tom,

Does anyone know where there is a picture of Lisa's full cut alligator boots? Have heard about them but have not seen a picture.

Chuck

[dw]

Chuck,

Gallery Archive 101-125, 'bout half way down--October 30, 2007. They aren't full full cuts but high vamps that had to have been blocked as a full wellington. Top is heavily inlaid. She won a buckle (first place) at Witchita Falls with them.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[sorrell]

Thanks, guys! Crocodile is my absolute favorite leather. It crimps beautifully, it lasts beautifully--it's just wonderful.

When you crimp a full cut, one of the biggest challenges is getting the side seam edge to stretch the huge amount needed. That side seam area takes a lot of stress, that's why it can rip sometimes. I cut those vamps out of the throat of two matched skins. This put the side seam right in the "armpit" area. There was a ruffle of leather just exactly in the area that it needed to stretch the most.

That's why I thought of trying that in crocodile. I knew that if I could find skins that were just the right size I could take advantage of that ruffled-up, stretchy area at the armpit. I don't know how well crimping full cuts with crocodile will work when I'm not using the armpit area. I'm going to try that next.

Lisa

[homeboy]

Lisa,

I too am a deep admirer of your work. Most of it is just amazing.

Question....what do you line your croc/gator components with? Or do you?

Thanks in advance.

Jake

[homeboy]

Lisa,

The reason I'm asking is Mark Stanton recently sent me a "February" sales email. I've never work with either skin before. I'm thinking about making myself a pair. From the sound of it, you prefer croc, right?

[homeboy]

I'm sorry....Mark Staton

http://www.markstatonco.net/

[dw]

Lisa,

I get it!! Brilliant!! I think I could do that!!

I guess you had to have two pretty big crocs...any idea what the measurement was across the belly? They had to be pretty close to 30 cm near the shoulders, right? So 50cm across the belly?

I wonder if you could slip the "foot" into the belly and put the screw corner and the back in the shoulder/throat? Just speculating...but now that I think about it the throat would be the prettier leather to have over the foot by a long shot, esp. on that large an animal.

Again, my hat's off to you and thanks for sharing that insight/cran.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[sorrell]

DW,
I don't remember how big the skins were, but they actually weren't very big. My last size is a 3 1/2 and those were my boots. I noticed that the skins I had were EXACTLY the right width for a pair of size 3 1/2 full cuts and that gave me the idea. And you're right, I cut them so that the toe was in the throat. It makes a beautiful toe, and you could make the fullcuts as tall as you wanted that way. So if you wanted to try it I'd suggest you measure the width of your fullcut pattern and then call Mark Staton and see if he can find you two matched skins that are that wide.

Lisa

[paul]

"The Art and Mysterie..." is actually my Colloquy bookmark.
It's amazing we haven't had any posts since Lisa and DW were talkig about alligator skins. But that does not mean full cuts aren't going on. Here's what I'm up to:

9548.jpg

This is the pair that made me want to be a boot maker.
And the 'kick in the pant's', is that all of the full cuts I've made to date have been brown!
Finally I get to do my intrepation of this classic from the Texas Boots book.

I met the customer for the first time in the Spring of 2000, on the Leather Art Cruise, where 50 of us particpated in five leather workshops while at sea, cruising the Inside Passage of Alaska. What a cool trip that was!

A couple of years ago Gary told me he'd like me to make a pair for him like whatever I would make for myself. That was all it took. I was in. (Part of our deal is a trade for 5 handwoven wool Navaho rugs. A very cool trade!)

I don't know how you do with trades, but I have trouble working them in. And I've really been overbooked. But, I'm finally started. I had a couple of breakouts at the grips on the board, and the first French Calf skin "checked". So, I've been working on them, just not with committment to finishing. The American Express bill needs paid!

Anyway, now the second vamp is on the cruel boards, the back panels are assembeled and stitched. I've got another couple days of dry time before I'll go on to the vamp assembly...

I just thought I'd open the boot discussion again. We've shown respect for our brother shoe makers, and enjoy what there is to learn, but let's open this topic again.

So, this is the most rows of stitching I've ever done. I'd probably give myself a B. It's not too bad, tho I know I need more practice. I have decided that being tired is a time to stop.

9549.jpg

9550.jpg

I added another section to the pattern I've been using on all the brown ones I've done. I guess I did the row sequence like everything else I do. The second row in, is the first row I stitched, and then inward from there. The white row outside of that was an afterthought. It needs some finesse'. Anyway, it kinda lights up, don't it? I like it!

This is also the first time I've done a pattern below the "throat line". I hope it's not too long. I think it'll just reach the rand most likely.
It's going to be much harder doing the vamps. The forepart will be a serious obstacle. But I'm not takijng the pattern forward into the vamp area, just down to the sole edge. That, I'm saving for myself!

I know it will be good practice at paying close attention, and going slow. Wish me luck.

Back to the bench,
Paul

[big_larry]

Paul,

Tremendous project!!! Please refrain from grading the stitching, oh yes, If you grade these "B" then mine are below the scale. This looks "Mighty Fine" to me.

I have watched your progress and you have been an inspiration. I have always liked the "full cut" and I hope you don't mind if I style my patterns after yours. I try not to copy but the stitch pattern is a "pretty well ploughed field" but I use others creations and re-draw with my oun changes. If this is objectionable, please say so and I will avoid any borrowing of your patterns.

Please keep up this great work and please keep posting.

Thankx again,

Larry Peterson

[paul]

I'll take mighty fine, Larry. Thank you.

But let's take note of our areas needing improvment and keep working on 'em tho, ok?

Hey, I appreciate the request, but this pattern is adapted from the 1906 FW I worked off of for the workshop with DW. It's probably a couple years and a few pages back.

But work with it anyway you wish.

Paul

[dw]

Paul,

I just wanted to say that your stitch pattern and the way you are handling it have evolved immensely. It is beautiful now if it wasn't before.

I am eager to see the finished boots.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

Paul,

That pattern is lovly enough, but twice as pretty with the colors of thread you chose giving it a misty effect. Makes me appreciate how lucky I am dping that old timey single stitch floral patterns. I may be inspired to get some spectacles and try this!

JesseLee

[paul]

Thanks Jesse,

Hey, it's really good to hear from you again. I'll call it another reason to open this thread again. I hope things are going well for you. Did you ever get out to visit different shops like you intended?

This is a picture of the stitch pattern on the boots that got me to DW's for the FW course.

9568.jpg

This pair of boots belonged to the customer's Father-in-Law. He asked me to update them. So the pattern I came up with, expresses my preference for "perky" points. But this one is cool for it's oak leaf affect. But as you see it's a single row pattern.

It occurs to me, as you imply, that eye sight and lighting could indeed be reasons why multiple row patterns were not the norm in "the day". I know I need all the help I can get to do a decent job at it.

Paul

[chuck_deats]

Paul, That pair of 1906 boots has been an inspiration for several of us. Thanks for posting them. Looks like you are going to raise the bar. Beautiful stitching. Good luck on the vamp and getting the stitching to come out in the right location. IMO, an attractive single line pattern is much harder to design than multiple rows, so we have to give the old boys credit.

[paul]

DW, I missed you comment the other day. Thank you for the encouragement.

Thanks Chuck,
For right now, it's just one bootmaker trying to stand on the shoulders of other bootmakers while grasping for the aformentioned bar. But keep the good thoughts coming this way.

Oh Larry, I meant to say this is the original pattern I was refering to, so use it as you wish. We look forward to see what you do with it too.

Back to the bench,

Paul

[jesselee]

Paul,

Those are wonderful, did you make them? Thats the simplistic old timey patterns I do. Yes, eyesight has a lot to do with it, back in the good old days as a kid I w0rked with natural sunlight on the porch, in the evening it was lamp light and so slow.
I never did get to do my rounds. Got hijacked by a recording studio which has given me 2,400 sq. ft. of space shared with an electronics genius. So maybe next Spring when I get back to WA and renew my drivers license.
Luckily multiple stitching is at the end of my chosen era. Then again, cataract surgury and some specs may encourage a few laughs for my efforts on 20th century patterning.
New apprentice comes in soon, she works for a pioneer village and I will be showing her skills off with a copy of 1860's cowboy boots entirely hand stitched including patterns. I may even decide to publish the old journal this summer with all the pics, measurements of famous old west guys and stuff..
Keep up the good work, I crave inspiration.

Cheers,

JesseLee