"The Art and Mysterie..."

[dw]

Joel,

I think they look real good. Yes, they are far enough up the board. In my mind, it is not that critical. There are many shapes of crimping board out there. Not all of them close in shape to mine. I believe a person could use any one of them and sucessfully crimp the vamps of a pair of boots and still use my patterns and assembly techniques.

Remember, the whole purpose of crimping is not to stretch the vamp (although that does happen) but to shape it. I've seen methods of "crimping" or "blocking" a vamp that use no boards at all...just a string and tacks. So board shape is probably incidental.

As for any reference point...the corners of the vamp in the irons is the closest I can give you. After that it's more a matter of process than position. The vamp will find the proper position if you follow the process.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

Hello all,

I was finally able to get back to my Full Wellingtons last week. They've been hanging on the wall on a jig I made the shape of the cruel boards, because I didn't want them to become distorted laying around in the interum.

The panels were cut to the patterns. Linings installed, panels trimmed and top edges bound. The counter was made and installed on the back panel lining and it was married with it's panel and bound as well. I'm making mule ears for this one and they were made and stitched. I designed a pattern for the ears that is compatible with the leg stitch pattern.

This morning when I go in I'll be finishing up the top stitching and will be ready to add the side seam welt. I have prepared a strip welt for this one as we had talked about. I used horsehide welting, edged, dyed and burnished and ready to go.

Then I got to thinking about this choice. Horsehide can be very brittle, so that when stitched close to the edge it can actually split and break out due the needles mass. So I'm having second thoughts about horse.

Is cow preferred for this reason? And how about prefinishing the leading edge of the welt? Is there too much trimming resulting from this method of side welting a boot to make it difficult to use strip finished out on the edge before stitching?


PK

[big_larry]

Paul.

I know you are addressing your consirns about welting to the more experienced boot makers, however, I wanted to jump in and tell you my take on the horse hide strip for welting. I cut the strips into 3/4 inch strips and then run it through a heated oil and bees wax bath. The penitration is superior to a wipe on. The leather will bend without surface distortion. I have used it on two pair of western boots and I am totally pleased with the result.

I particually like the 3/4 width so I can trim where I need to trim. I finish the sole trim with a 200 grit belt sander and burnish with a buffer using a little casting wax.

I am obsessive about coming up short and would rather waste trim leather than have an "OOOPS." I pre shape the form around the boot while the leather is still hot. It is my opinion that this gives the welt a life time treatment of water proofing and helps preserve the welt.

Now! I am relatively new at bootmaking and I have been known to have to back off on my theory's when given better knowledge from those persons who are much wiser than I. I don't claim to "Know it all" but I stand ready to share information when I think it might help someone.

I wish you well on your Full Wellingtons. I am tooling up to try a pair in the near future.

Your friend, Larry Peterson

[shoestring]

To all,

On making shoes is there a standard distance that the welt should be placed on the insole or is that the makers decsion,I am using a 9/16" welt.And is treating all welts better in the long run?

Ed

[paul]

Larry,

Thanks for your addition to the conversation.
I've been using horse for my outsole welts as well. I like it because I can cram more stitches per inch, in per inch. It's also a nice, tight grain when I'm finishing out the edge.

I like the idea of conditioning the welt, heaven knows I've seen alot of welt dry up from barn yard acids and such. But a couple words of caution.
1.)As to your heated oil mixture, you don't want that too hot, of course. I've seen hot oil baths burn leather beyond use when it was too hot. I don't have a tempeture, so I'm no help there, but it's something to watch out for.
2.)As to the oil mixture itself in the leather of your welt, I'd worry some about the wax affecting the adhesion of my sole. The contact cement is going to be doing most of the job holding the sole on once the stitches walk thru. I'd be some concerned that the oil/wax might interfer with the glue performing the best it can.

But all that said, in my post above, I was actually refering to the side seam piping or strip welt in this case. Has anyone ever used horse for side seams?

Ed, I kind of eye ball the beginning and ending of my outsole welts at about an inch back from the tread line. About the same place as a half sole splice might begin. Be sure to throw a stitch over the end of the welt to secure it, for the next repair break down. Our experts might have a better guide than that. But that's about what we've been looking at all these years of repairin' 'em, ol' pal.

PK

[dw]

Paul,

I think the horse strip would work just fine. Just be sure you split it down a little. The thickness we want for outsole welting is a little too thick, in my opinion, for side welt.

I've never used horse strip for side welt but I can't foresee any problem that would not also apply to cow. If you are worried about it being brittle (I've never encountered a problem with brittleness, myself)...surely, the same worry would apply while outseaming. What would you do to counter that brittleness when sewing with the curved needle? Maybe dampen it before stitching?

When you trim it, don't trim it down too far. You can always come back and trim more off if you need to. But while it wants to be trimmed fair close, you don't want to expose the stitching. So you should probably leave just enough that when the boot is finished and treed you can rub or tap the side welt to turn it over just a tiny bit to fill in the sideseam and cover the stitching--this is from the outside I'm talking about.

Good luck...let us know how it turns out.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

DW,

Everything I have is 6/7ounce. My horse hide is closer to 6oz. As is my ladies welt. My mens welt is a plump 7, but it looks too think.

When I was at Galco we stitched horsehide holsters on heavy stitchers, Champions and Cyclones. It we got too close to the edge those awl and needle machines would bust out a track along the edge of the stitching. I just didn't want that to happen to my side welt.

ANyway, I switched horses mid stream, so to speak, and trimmed up a piece of ladies welt. I wanted to use your 3/8" suggested width, but the welt channel was there. SO I used my strap cutter and trimmed the edge off to 3/8". It actually left enough of the channel to stitch along when I attached it to the backs.

You made a comment in your reply that has me thinking. As I said, I had been thinking of prefinishing the exposed edge. But I think it'd be better for this first pair, to trim and such after stitching, as you mentioned when you said, "when the boot is finished and treed you can rub or tap the side welt to turn it over just a tiny bit to fill in the sideseam and cover the stitching".

On the vintage Western Boot Company boots I've looked at, it looked as if the side welt had been edged and burnished. It makes me wonder, is there a tool that is sometimes used for this? I was thinking my #2 French Edger in either case. What do you use?

To cover the stitches, it'll have to be kinda opened up in the fibes and spread, won't it?

PK

[dw]

Paul,

My thought would be that if you want to dye the welt, you need to soak it good. Especially along the edge that will be exposed. But either way, I think you want to trim it after turning the tops or after lasting. That means cut it as wide as you need to so that you won't be stitching right up next to an edge.

The one problem I foresee with dyeing it is that the dye might bleed.

In any case, almost every historic example I've seen of strip welt, the welting was left natural unless the boot was black--in which case you might be able to dye it after trimming with no problem.

The #2 (is that what I recommend in the book?) Best Common trimmer will leave a rounded edge on both sides of the strip if it is held evenly. If the strip is trimmed when slightly damp it will end up slightly burnished, as well.

I've seen it both ways--flattened so that it spreads and covers the stitching; and trimmed and burnished with a round appearance. Both ways look nice. I think the first approach is a bit more historically accurate, but that's just a guess.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[jesselee]

DW

My fancy 1880's Tex/Mex boots will be completed and photographed tomorrow. Problem is, I can't save anything on this computer, as such I can't post the pics of 'em on the gallery. Would you be so kind as to do it for me if I send you the pics. Will also have a writeup.
Next is a pair of Southern gentleman's boots circa 1850-1865, which are suitable for a Confederate officer. These are a light gentleman's boots and not intended for heavy wear.
JesseLee

[jesselee]

What a day! Up at sunrise, shook my melon to get the weevils out. Fed John Henry and set up to do the soles on my 1860's Southern Gentleman's boots. I have the pictures of the originals on my photobucket site.
When I set out to copy these boots I was going to go 100%. Then I figgered, cuz I am old timey, I can take artistic licence and they are still 100% authentic copies. And being a 'fine' pair of Gentleman's boots, and VERY light weight. I thought I would go all out.

I used a shaped leather shank as per the originals, and as the heel is low for walking, and I wanted to preserve that narrow 1860's arch with the raised shank, that so many in reenactment shops have a problem creating.

So I dillegently cut, soaked and shaped my shanks, then I did the soles and let them sun dry. I trimmed the soles 'off the boot'. This is a very old way of forming a sole. It is tacked wet to the lasted boot and hammered into shape and left to dry. When dry, the sole is marked where it should be trimmed and then cut to shape with a knife and fitted against the boot until it is correct.

I glued the soles on (must confess to contact cement, not authentic, but I needed the flour for the night time meal of hard tack (which is cooking as I type this).

Occasionally with fancy boots, I do my bottom work first, before I fill, smooth, dye and wax. To me, shaping a sole is a supreme meditation. Yes, in the days I had a line finisher it was 5 minutes tops. Today was 8 hours. That is what is expected of a bespoke Cantrell boot, and these are for a hard customer, ME! so they better be perfect of I'm gonna fire myself!

I shaped the heels with hook knife, rasp and file. Final heel work to absolute finish was with the 'plane knife', And I bet nobody is familiar with it. people could argue that a 'plane knife' is just a tiny skiving knife but it isn't. It is 3/4" wide by 6" long, 1/8" thick and the angle of the sharp edge is 1/2" back. Looking down at the knife, flat, the left side is at 6" and the right side at 5 1/4".

After the heel is shaped, you use the Plane Knife to go around the heel, holding it flat to the heel surface you are cutting. Then you true up by cutting at an angle across the lifts.

cont.

JesseLee

[jesselee]

continuing on:

This cutting action makes the heel perfectly smooth ie. like using glass. It looks easy to do, yeah, about 500 times more difficult than skiving! So they say!

Finally a swift and rapid across the heel lifts, gentle, yet FAST strokes of the Plane Knife at 1/16" increments makes the heel perfectly smooth... (Who said 'line finisher'!!!!!)

So, the heels and soles are trimmed. Heels pegged on at each layer and finally square iron nails on the tap as per originals and period. Since I did not have access to a McKay, I opted to peg. I usually do a very close 13 to the inch double and 6-7 to the inch single and placed about 1/4" from the edge of the sole, all by eye of course. So I double pegged the arch and singled the rest of the sole.

This being done, I decided to use some of my leather stamps to 'finish' the arch. I used my bone folder to set the curve line indicating left and right ball/arch area. I then used a line wheel to make this line more marked (as I plan on placing a halfsole precisely at the line. Then, below this I used a series of hearts to mark the curve. Then my line wheel against the heel and over the arch. Then my flower stamp to mark just inside the pegged area of the shank. The whole thing looks real fancy.

The soles and heels will be filled and polished edgewise and polished on the bottom.I will send pictures of the soles with and without the halfsoles and taps.

So, thus a bootmaker and his cat spend the day, Dreaming the Dream, and not caring a bit that it took so long to do a fine finish on a pair of soles. It is the loving touch that we put into a pair of boots or shoes that counts, we give them life and in return they give us recognition of who we are.

Well, the hardtack is done, now must have some foul coffee with that to keep in period!

JesseLee

[paul]

Tom Mattamore,

Hello my friend.

I've been getting ready for some shopping and am thinking of the pig skin you mentioned in post 125 on this thread. You said you had been working with Siegel's pig lining.

I just spoke with Marney there and she only has the pig split linings and a mission grain pig.

Is either of these what you've used for full cuts before?

PK

[dw]

Paul,

This is DW... not Tom ... and I've never used Siegal's pig, but I will take a run at this anyway.

I used to use a very sweet pigskin from Coey tanning out of Wartrace Arkansas. On Bugscuffle Lane. (How could I be making this up?) It was about three ounce and the best pig lining I have ever seen then or since.

But if you are thinking of using it for FW's be careful. Pig is notoriously short fibered and it has no real corium--no dense layer of "grain" like other leathers have.

You can block full fronts out of it but it's a crap shoot. I lined several pair of my own FW's with pig...after struggling with it...and they ripped out sooner than any other lining I've used--simply because the leather had been stretched to the limit of the fiber length.

Siegal's pig may be different but it won't change the basic characteristics.

Stevenson Paxton has a very nice caramel calf that is veg tanned and is about 3-3.5 ounce and looks very nice. I'd use it in almost any area of any boot.


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[paul]

Dear Brothers of the Full Cut,

Here we go again. Full wellies up for discussion again.

I just crimpted the vamp on my second pair. (Third actually, but my seminar boots were a different case.) But this was easy!

I've been nervous about getting started on another pair, but these came up in the que, so here I go. I'd already crimpted the liners. I figured they would be easy enough, I didn't refer to anybody's direction to accomplish it.

However considering what a revelation Tom Mattimore's technique was to DW, I thought I'd go back and reread all the input received while working thru my pair last February. It took some digging to find all the gems, but I did. And here's my result.

5427.jpg

I took only about 45 minutes and I didn't have to wrestle with it. I never really had any wrinkles to speak of, only shallow pipes, that pulled out cooperativly.

There's still three more crimps to get these ready, but I'm encouraged!

PK

[tmattimore]

I guess the stuff I got from siegal was an odd lot. The latest pig I have tears real easy, any way a cow lining will give a little more substance. Glad to see it worked out for you.

I have got to try Coey, with a name and address like that they must know their pig.
Tom

[dw]

Paul,

Tom's method was a revelation to me, no question. That said, working through my last several pair I found myself going back more and more to what I was used to doing...not totally abandoning Tom's techniques but favouring my own in the mix. They say you always fall back on what you know. And Tom is working with a rather specialized veg tan leather that is significantly different in temper than the Beaumont.

I think the best advice and the best technique is what Al Saguto said to me..."the best way to crimp front blockers is...whatever works."

I know that doesn't help much for someone struggling to learn the form but absorb it and let it mull around awhile and you'll see what I mean. I think each piece of leather--each tannage, each weight, each piece...even from the same side/hide...will respond a little differently. And you have to be ready to change direction if it warrants it.

Good luck on these.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[shoestring]

PK,

Stay away from the pig lining I used it and it did well considering I only have (5) pair under my belt .It's a darn good lining for green horns like myself to learn on.Now I am feeling the need to step up to a better grade of lining leather.As for the mission grain it's a very good economical lining for cases.Can't beat it.But the pig will give under the lasting or crimping pressure,sure its nice looking and pig makes a wonderful looking lining for one of those hand bags you make.
Ed

[jake]

Hey Fellers,

I believe Coey Tannery was in Tennessee. I'll see if I can find an address.

Good people to work with.

[dw]

Jake,

Is that what it takes to get you to come out? Me, with the faulty memory (that's why I have a computer--it's my main brain, now) saying "ARKANSAS" ?

Seriously, you're right and thank you for correcting me. I don't know why I said ARKANSAS...must have been thinking of you.

I always got TRD from them (tannery run 3 ounce) it was great for top lining.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[chuck_deats]

Brothers of the Full Cut,

I may be a heretic for suggesting that two piece boots are not perfect. After a period of wear, my two piece boots develop a wrinkle at the break point. (GH french calf more than Horween’s Beaumont). Four piece boots don’t tend to do this as badly. This wrinkle is not unattractive and may even be desirable in some boots (replicas, etc.). Four piece boots have four layers of glued and stitched leather in this area. Two piece boots have two layers, normally, not glued or stitched together.

I am considering a crimped one piece mid-liner, about the same weight as the vamps. The lower portion would be cut away, similar to a standard mid-liner. The upper portion would be cut like an oversize tongue of a four piece boot and only the upper portion glued to the vamps (flesh to flesh). Liner not glued. Of course, everything would be skived and, hopefully, would not show on the finished boot.

Would appreciate comments on this technique before I put in all the work. What problems can I expect? Has anyone done it before? Will it help the problem? Are there other solutions?

Thanks in advance.

Chuck

[dw]

Chuck,

Here's my take...First, all boots need a major, inverted "V" shaped wrinkle just above the break in front and just above the heel stiffener in back--OK, maybe three inches above , both front and back. This insures that heel slippage will be minimal. Without these wrinkles the boot won't travel with the foot. I did not come up with this theory--it originated with Luchesse. But I agree with him. Sometimes when I am delivering a boot to a customer I will deliberately crease this "pipe" in so that it has a chance to "set" as one large inverted "V" rather than a bunch of small, stacked and irregular wrinkles.

On dress wellingtons this pipe is still evident (and needed) but pushed to just above the tongue.

Second, many of the old boots had very excessive wrinkling in the break area because they were cut wide in the throat. This concept still applies. My own patterns are drafted severely in at the sides. This is consistent with Golding and Swaysland and my own teacher but not so common among contemporary makers, from what I know.

Third, I have tried a "stay" sandwiched in between the lining and the fronts. I usually used a piece of veg tan of about three ounce--the same leather I used for the lining. It extended a bit higher than a tongue on a dress welling ton might extend and ran down the sides of the sideseam to create a "fender." I can't say as it helped much. But it didn't hurt either.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[chuck_deats]

DW,

Thank you. After re-examining both two and four piece boots, you are correct. The tongue on four piece boots does somewhat camouflage the wrinkle which is about one inch above the break point on both boots.

I think what I read is, my problem is not a problem, and in fact, is a problem if it is not there. One pair is way too loose in the heel and has not developed the pipe above the counter. The crimped mid-liner will not hurt anything but it also won’t do much good. Glad someone else had similar thoughts and tried it.

Thanks for this forum. It is almost like having a Master to ask questions and not have to re-invent the wheel.

Chuck

[big_larry]

D.W. and Chuck,

I may be a little simple "minded" and so for my sake I am asking you both to give me a little simpler explanation about the crease and the fuller cut.

If we assume the crimping is accomplished and the "cruel" crimping is accomplished and the drying period is 6 or 7 days, doesn't the wet lasting pretty well pull out any benefit from the fuller cut?

If I am following accurately the wrinkle at the break point in front and the pipe over the heel area will occure even if the leather is pulled tightly? So it is desireble to have the wrinkle to allow foot movement?

Please help me out of this dither! Remember, that for every 140 on the I.Q. scale there has to be a 60 in the normally distributed bell curve. Us 60's may not be bright, but we can be steady.

Thank you for tolerating me, Larry Peterson

[dw]

Larry,

I'm not sure what you mean by "fuller cut." We sometimes refer to "full wellingtons" as "full cuts" but when you add the "er" it means something different.

Having that inverted "V" shaped pipe both over the break of the boot and over the counter allows leg movement not foot movement. In fact the inverted "V" over the break tends to force the vamps tighter over the instep. ...and, additionally it allows the leather of the back, esp. just above the counter, to pull forward and in tighter against the back of the foot.

I crimp (others might not do it this way) the front blocker twice...on a regular board and then on a "cruel" board...for two reasons--to ease the leather into a deeper crimp gradually, and because we desire a deeper crimp so that we may cut both for better lasting and for different heel heights. Using the cruel board avoids having to have a different set of boards for every heel height. Have you priced the cost of a pair of long boards? Have you priced the cost...dollar-wise as well as time-wise...of making your own? Either way two sets is better than four sets.

Finally, making a stab at "fuller cut", I draft the sides of my boots in quite a bit. This follows Golding and and Swaysland and several others conceptually, at least. But not all makers do that...some cut their tops straight. In any case, when I make boots, because of this "side draft," the cut is less full--narrower--rather than otherwise.

Hope that helps...


Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[chuck_deats]

Larry,

Don’t fret, I am still learning the language. The pipes (winkles), I was discussing are not there in new boots. You won’t see them in the posted pictures, but after a period of wear (break in), the boots will develop a wrinkle above the break point and above the counter unless your heel flops up and down like a pair of mules. These wrinkles are just more obvious on two piece (full wellingtons) boots than on four piece (dress wellingtons).

My original problem was getting the boot to “grip the wood” of the last around the throat line (top of the counter). This was solved by flaring the patterns near the insole per DW’s instructions. Don't try narrowing the throat to accomplish this. (Been there, done that.) I think this is what DW is calling side draft.

Chuck