The Crispin Colloquy

I suspect that a full welt is not only widely considered, but actually more appropriate for, a more "casual" or "country" shoe than what would be ordinarily regarded as "dress". So probably more appropriate for a heavy double-soled longwing derby than even a heavily brogued Oxford.

Thanks, DW. That frames it for me nicely.

Hello All,

For 270 degree Norvegese constructions (turned out or Norwegian welted from heel point to heel point), it seems to me that something careful or clever must be done with the upper at the heel point transition. Does one cut a small notch in the upper's margin at that point to allow for turning in of the upper under the heel? If so, I wonder if reinforcement stitching along such a notch is called for, or whether any other measures to support water resistance are needed.

Peter

I'll defer to all modern makers on this, but I've examined shoes from the 1700s made like that, and the upper was merely cut to transition from the out-flanged stitchdown lasting margin, to the lasted-under construction in the heel seat. The uppers were unlined, very stout waxed calf. Usually on 1900s shoes the lining is lasted under the insole all around, so if there was a cut in the outer layer, they should still be water-tight via the continuous lining.

Thank you, Messr. Suguto!

You're most welcome. As to your original question, no, I can't think of any need for reinforcing of the small nick, or cut, to transition from stitch-down (halfer/Norwegian) construction in the forepart to lasted-under in the heel-seat.

QUESTION ABOUT ATTACHING TAPERS TO BRISTLES:

I have gotten relatively good at wrapping tapers around boar bristles, but where the trouble lies is when I am locking the bristle to the thread by way of poking a hole and pulling the bristle through. It seems this action is too rough on the natural bristle and the bristle breaks. I have most of my practice with hemp thread, and when locking the bristle it would break maybe 40% of the time, which didn't seem to bother me being that I am new to this procedure. But, I have been practicing with some vintage Barbours thread for the first time and the bristle breaks nearly every time I try to lock it, so I must be doing something wrong because the tapers I am making with the linen thread are smoother than with the hemp, but harder to pull through.

And, on some tutorials they mention to poke the hole in the middle of the cord to lock the bristle but I could never seem to do that because the bristle is in the middle of the cord, you know what I mean? Or, maybe I need to poke a hole higher up on the bristle were it becomes fluffy and splittable.

Any wisdom in regards to my troubles?

Without a photo, It's hard to visualize what you're doing but it sounds like your bristles may be too old. When I was using boar's bristles I never had anything like what you describe happen. I use split monofilament now and I make my hole through the middle of the cord...as I did with the boar's bristles...The fine ends (the split ends) are not in the middle of the cord--they are off to the side.

See if this helps...

Thank you sir that makes perfect since. When I poke the hole I probably compromise the bristle, but poking it beyond where the bristle is wrapped will make a much smoother process, I don't know how I formulated that misunderstanding. I guess that is the price of self apprenticeship, but with a website like this there is hope.

Hello All,

Poring over the older postings, I found some discussion about the merits and watchouts for tallowing insoles. Separately, I'm always on the lookout for good, dense-and-workable, 12-15 oz insole shoulder (I know, Baker's, right?). Then I got to thinking, which is usually dangerous. If an insole is eventually to be tallowed (i.e., treated with fats and oils) anyway, would it be a mistake to construct it from harness leather? I'm sure the answer must be "Yes, that's a mistake," but I'm curious as to exactly why.

Thanks,

Peter

Well, I used to tallow my insoles per a recipe (apocryphal?) that I got from @das, IIRC. I never found a downside except for two things...First, it was an additional step, and Second, it acted as a mask for cement. Plus, I was never certain the hot oil wasn't damaging the insole somewhat.

I have spoken to makers who use saddle, or perhaps harness leather for insoles. With good results...purportedly. Never tried it myself.

That said, I have a good stock of Baker but I am currently using some insole shoulder from Canada--it's more like skirting than Baker in terms of temper but that said, I wouldn't want it any softer.

Some of the harness leather I've seen was fairly dripping with excess oil and I don't think that would be good.

Tallow tends to be solid at room temp. Neatsfoot tends to be liquid. Seems like the neatsfoot would grease up your socks.

YMMV

Thanks, DW. I appreciate those insights.

DW recalled correctly, I often tallowed Bakers insoles before blocking, but only used sheep tallow applied at shop/room temperature (which down here can be in the 90sF), rubs on as a thick paste in texture, and sat them on a sunny windowsill to let the tallow melt-in, then rubbed off the excess. I usually only do this for bespoke work if I've observed the customer's badly cracked insoles in their old footwear--some people's sweat is destructive as hell on insoles. It will interfere with cement sticking. If you can't get a hold of firm white sheep's tallow, I wouldn't bother, as beef tallow smells like old time MacDonald's french fries, and pig lard is unpleasant too.

Beware neatsfoot oil, which will leech out into your socks, true. Apparently it's no longer rendered exclusively from cow's lower leg bones/hooves, but mostly pig lard, even the so-called "100% pure". Neatsfoot oil "compound" is lard cut with vegetable oils.

Thanks, Das!

So, doing some practice welting at home (but forgot the welt). But, it was interesting how the tension pulled the insole up like this. Definitly not surprised, but I never really though of this aspect when inseaming with the upper lasted over. This made me think of an idea I heard somewhere, probably this forum, that some makers believe an insole should be mellow basically through the entire shoemaking process. Seeing my insole bow up like this definitely makes me think they have a point. With such tension I can imagine an insole deforming after the last has been removed.

By the way, something to note here is I am using a very soft insole so something like baker would probably not bow up as much.