The Crispin Colloquy

Courtney,

I have the feeling that maybe you are indeed confused. But I'm sure we can help.

All of these layers ought to be assembled in such a manner that there is maybe no more than a 3ounce filler needed.

Do you have a picture of what you've been working on, so we can see what you might be doing.

Here is a picture of a job I did recently with leather as heavy as you describe, and the 3 oz. filler I used to prepare for closing.
.

Courtney:

Remember
1. the insole is thinner around the perimeter, where the upper/lining/welt go, because a feather has been made
2. the welt is thinned/skived/beveled on the edge that butts up against the holdfast
3. typically, the toe puff and the counter are skived where they go over the insole, so their thickness can be fairly limited.

However, I would say a 6 oz insole is extremely thin. Perhaps it is a 6 IRON insole, which would be more like an 8 oz thickness, although even that seems pretty thin.

Regarding insoles, hopefully one of these days we'll have Bakers leather available here in the USA. Also, Lisa Sorrell has recommended Volpi & Lyons in Massachusetts for insole leather.

Lance

Courtney:

I looked at a 'West End' insole I have from a London bespoke maker. That insole is approx. 3/16" thick, i.e. 9 iron or 12 oz. The feather is cut such that the edge of the insole is about 1/16", hence the depth of the feather is about 1/8".

Lance

Courtney,

I am sorry i couldn't reply sooner, my hands were busy you see,i was preparing an insole for inseaming,so i managed to take a picture of the insole preparation for welting,you should only have 2 or 3 oz cavity to fill after your inseaming is done,leather is best filler,Don't do what i do,use a heavier insole if you have to, I usually use 8 or 9 oz for man's shoes.but i have used 6 oz to test the resiliency of certain insole fibers.


Nasser

Paul, Lance, Nasser, Thank you.

Paul, I'm not working on it right now, I'm about to make fitters, I think I need to tweak my lasts still.
Just mentally thinking about how to not mess it all up at the end.

I have only welted a shoe once, maybe my problem was I did'nt trim back all the material to the inside of the welt edge, I think I might have let it cover the holdfast, I would guess that would have caused a pretty deep cavity. I cant remember, but I'll bet thats what I did.

lance, I have heard to cut it 1/3 and also 1/2, but never 2/3. Thanks for looking at it.

Nasser, that is how I did my welt, all the way around, I had a hard time getting the awl around the heel, I think I may have seen a video where they awl it from the outside in on that part.
Probably a real deep curved awl would help?

Thanks,
Courtney

I think I figured out what I did wrong, did'nt think of it till now. {covering the holdfast}

Nasser,
for your light welted shoes, you are using certainly a thicker insole isn't it? What substance do you use? And are you using a steel shank or leather for this type of shoes? And do you have some kind of priorities or "must" in your last?
I must admit, that I'm a big fan of your work and I'm so curios to learn and try this construction, when recently my wife was asking me about my ideas for the Christmas holidays, I was telling her, "well there is a great shoemaker living in Toronto, which I might like to visit..", of course
she gave me a big blast, so may be later..., but in the meantime I will certainly start trying this soon (of course in the holidays, that's my punishment now )
Thanks
Andre

Courtney,

There are many good examples of insole preparing in the archive probably in this thread and worth looking at before you make your next and of course you can always post questions, The heel here on this one is prepared for a whip stitch and not welt continuum,It,s the stiffener that gets on the way when one continue the welt around the heel-seat,although it produces a very nice looking seat if well done.

Andre,

Thank you for the kind words,Welcome to Toronto anytime,but just to remind you to be prepared for snow and below zero temperature in winter,but there is always little warmth in my shop.The insole i use for welted shoes generally is 8 oz shoulder,I have them in 6,9,10/11 oz, The B/S maker decides what substance insole for what type of work/construction,I never seen a rule saying that insole thickness should be this or that.

Do i have some kind of priorities or "must" in my last,Well yes,The highest priority is selection of last for individual feet and adding the last fitters where ever they are needed,The goal is a well fitted shoe and hopefully some elegance and no pinching anywhere in it.

Nasser

Andre,

I gave up using steel shanks for healthy feet,I use wood and top it with some good leather and the soles are stitched heel to heel and so far no collapsed waist.

Nasser

Nasser:

Those insoles look much heavier than 9 oz to me.

If the one on our left, on which one can see the edge, has not yet had its feather removed, I would judge it to be in the 9 - 10 IRON range. If the feather has already been removed, then the insole would by necessity be even thicker.

Do you really use a 9 OUNCE (i.e. 6 iron) insole for welted work?

Lance

Hello Lance,

Warkov-Safeer uses OZ to measure their bottoming stocks,I personally did not measure,keep in mind you are looking at a mellow unfeathered, except around the hold-fast using the safety welt knife, the insole had been soaked in water for few hours than rapped in paper and placed in a plastic bag and put in a dark spot for 18 hours, at this stage the insole fibers are loose and puffy,best time to inseam it.I am wearing shoes welted with 6 oz insole and they are few years young,it is of course a careful operation and need to use smaller awls and one or two less strands,the insole above is for a above ankle zipper boots and i find it a little heavy,I use 8 oz regularly for welted shoes.

On a different note,Do you remember the last you got for me and others that were made in Mexico,Will it be possible to buy more of them in half sizes? they turned out to be good lasts,but i am missing the half sizes.Sigh.

Nasser

Nasser:

Thanks. Makes sense. That still seems really thin to me, but hey, you're the guy who is working with it, and it sounds like it works for you. I'll have to get a sample of the Warkov-Safeer leather.

I am contemplating organizing another purchase of blanks at some point in the next few months, so I'll definitely let you know.

If anyone else is interested in the blanks, please contact me for details.

Lance

Nasser,
you're full of surprises. You're using wood?? How you bend it? Is it soft wood stick like for ice cream use? Sorry my stupid question, I've simply never though about wood. Can you advice a little bit more in detail?
Andre

Andre,

It,s just desperate times sometimes leads one to do unorthodox things and by that i mean not having the proper materials in this case led me to experiment and not been schooled in shoe-making,but an apprenticeship with an old mighty bench-man bottomer and it was him who told me if the B/S is stitched heel to heel or all around,no need for any shank wood or steel,but a piece hard veg leather which makes sense thinking about it, when the insole and sole are stitched to the last tight,it is not going to collapse,The wood i use is those ice cream sticks also called cheese sticks,cement one side of the wood and insole shank area,it will bend easy and stay there,The curve under the waist of low heel shoe is small and i am not making a bow

Lance,

Not a bad thing to have some Warkov,shoulder or bends,It is an American company tanning in Mexico,surprised no one carries it in the US. Back to sole stitching.

Nasser

What is the reasoning for stopping the inseam ribbing just behind the joint, VS allowing it to continue a bit further, like in the picture below...

Nick,

I think of it as a style vs strength of construction issue.

Carrying the welt further will make for a stronger construction but it is not easy to get a tight beveled waist this way. The front of the shoe or boot is flexed quite a bit in use, whereas the back is pretty much rigid. So the back is not under the same stresses as the forefoot.

One can use methods such as pegging to further stabilize the back of the shoe whereas pegs wold make the forepart stiffer than desirable.

Having said that, welting all the way to the heel seat or all the way around the heel is strong construction indeed!

This pair of riding boots been in my shop for at least ten years,they used to belong to an officer who wore them for eighteen years until the upper and lining ripped where it was inseamed around big toe area,I made him a new pair and he left his old pair here at the shop,So today i decided to take the boot apart and see and what i noticed was that the inseaming was done not with thread,but heavy nylon fishing line! how did he tapered the ends? the nylon is way too thick for needles or bristles, has anyone Seen or done inseaming with nylon like this?


Nasser

It just dawned on me,he didn't need the use of needle or bristle,the nylon end itself was used to go through the holes.

Nasser

I was just looking at Michaels great shoes in the gallery and remebered I had wanted to ask how to make a storm welt?

Not the alpine welt wit the double stitching, I know it can be purchased, but can you make it by hand?

Courtney

Good Morning All,

Because of a handicap in the palm of my right hand I'm not able to make the seams to connect the insole to the upper by hand anymore.

Do you know of a handcranked machine wich I could use to make this seams?

Or maybe an antique engine operated machine? Wich markes and types I should look for? I live in Holland.

I know that this forum is about handsewing, but could you help me to continue making my own shoes?

Anton

Courtney,
Thank you for the complement. The storm welt I used was indeed purchased...I believe it was Barbours brand. I would prefer to make my own though, can anyone shed some light on the subject?

Michael,

I've used Barbours storm welt for years. I've also used their 5/8" and 1/2" welt, but now for the past 10 or so, I've been making my own for the boots I make. I've looked at the storm welt closely and can see no efficient way to make my own. That doesn't mean it can't be done, it just means I figure how I would.

If I wanted to have an edge with the storm welt's features, I'd make a stitch down design with an extra welt sewn onto the upper as has been discussed in another topic.
I'll see if I can find it, but it included a discussion of how White's boots are stitched down.
You know, it might even have been this thread. Have you checked thru the past posts here?

Hello.
Today I completed the stitching of the welt on my third pair of shoes.
I'm still very inexperienced, but I wanted to do this boot with welt Alpine.
The result was not very good.
The problem that occurred is that the holes made ​​on the insole at the beginning have not been done well and when I sewed, the seam is coming crooked (as seen in photo).
How can I do in the future to make the holes more accurate?
I tried to get them all at an equal distance, and get them out to the same height but it was not enough!

Your stitches appear to be a little big, keep them at 5mm or less,I can;t see how far you cut your channel, pre-make the holes on the insole to make it easier until you get used to it,welt and insole need to be mellow while sewing. Some photos to look at, the word alpine welt is my designation,others call it by other names.

Looking good, cool style!
Janne

Nasser,
How did you put so many small stitches in the toe and heel?
Looks really nice!
Joe