Insoles and inseaming

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#351 Post by producthaus » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:52 pm

Pardon the broader, basic, question...why isn't the technique used to inseam the front of the shoe (and single welt strip) continued around to the back of the heel?

EDIT : And I see that this question is answered by Lance on Tuesday, January 08, 2008, Cutting the Insole.

(Message edited by producthaus on November 11, 2010)

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#352 Post by dearbone » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:10 pm

Jon,
So which method do you stitch your heel seat with?, Marcell tried to pull this one on me too, It is the same technique done in reverse,Think about it.

Nasser

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#353 Post by das » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:18 pm

Nick,

Actually some of us old fellows do continue the sewing stitches round the heel seat, past the welt, without changing stitch-type, then stitch the outsole (no "rand&#34Image and the first "split-lift" of the heel by slipping the heel-awl down behind each sewing stitch at the base of the quarters. Afterwards the edge of the outsole is rasped and the thin lip created, beat up into an "L" shape to hide the seat sewing/stitching. To us the "rand" is a different thing--a functional strip like a wide welt, sewed in, only thinner leather, rolled underneath and whipped down or braced across. This rand is mostly used on tall boots to stand up to the abuse of tugging them off in boot jacks.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#354 Post by jon_g » Thu Nov 11, 2010 5:34 pm

Nasser, if it is the same stitch in reverse, I like the effect the thread has that jumps from stitch to stitch, creating an even, flat surface between it and the edge. But I'm not trying to pull anything over you, just explaining why I like it done this way.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#355 Post by romango » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:39 pm

Al,

I am intrigued by your comment. It's a little hard to visualize. Maybe you could post some pictures when the opportunity arises.

- Rick

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#356 Post by das » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:46 am

Rick,

I would if I could, but no digi-camera alas. Let me try this:

Sewn Seat--The inseam sewing continues around the heel seat (a fresh thread is a good idea), attaching the quarters (inc. lining, stiffener, etc.) to the insole as though a welt was present, but it's not. Then make your shank-piece, bottom filling, etc., put on the outsole, stitch the welt etc. as normal. Finally, to make the sewn seat, leave the sole a bit wide all round the seat. A heel awl is a very long, stout, slightly curved blade (see Salaman). The heel awl is slid down behind each sewing stitch around the seat, piercing the sole, and exiting through the split-lift--these stitches merely interlock with each seat sewing stitch. The visual result is not unlike that "gossier"(sp?) technique Marcell shows. Afterwards the sole is rough-rasped to shape, close to the last rather than knife-trimmed and that wire-edge of leather is dampened, then hammered up into something like an "L" shaped lip; then trimmed up neatly (w/ "safety welt knife), and finished after the heel is built, hiding all the seat sewing/stitching. Very strong, firm, and solid seats result.

Visualize a straight row of seat sewing stitches like this around the base of your quarters: -- -- -- -- -- --
Then coming down from above passing behind each these, the heel stitching stitches like upside-down: u u u u u

The sewn "blind rand" and "stitched rand" are stronger yet. For details see 'Art of the Shoemaker' examples at the top of pg. 244. The inseam continues around the heel seat as well, but for these a rand is sewed on like a welt, only thinner and wider. Once sewn, the rand is rolled underneath, held tight and secured either by whip-stitching its loose edge directly to the insole (like DW whip-stitches his uppers to the insole) or merely braced across as show in AotS, pg. 72 a2.

For the so-called "blind rand" the directions are as above, all the interlocking sewing/stitching hidden behind the roll of the rand, deep in the crevice at the base of the quarters, the rand is later beaten up flat to hide all. For the "stitched" rand, a square-point stitching awl is used, piercing the flattened outer rolled edge of the rand, NOT interlocking with any stitches underneath (and careful not to cut through them either!). The finished appearance of this can be seen in AotS, pg. 244, fig. 41, or on a forepart "white rand" on pg. 246, fig.47C.

Though "stitched" rands are admittedly archaic, the older fellows I met in the West End in the 1970s remembered them from their grandfathers' days for the best boots, and fuller detailed descriptions and opinions on them can be read in Rees and Devlin, plus the to me incongruous technique of "seat breakers" and their use.... Go see what I mean in Devlin.

The sewn "blind rand" (no visible stitches) was passing from use for low shoes in the 1800s, and the "sewn seat" (randless) as described above replaced it. IMO the Hasluck-stitch and these various forms of modified whip-stitching currently in use, are just a "degenerate" speedier yet form of seat building for low shoes. Although for any tall boot that requires a solid heel seat, and heels that won't be pulled loose with constant use of a boot jack, I use the "sewn seat" above and sometimes a "blind rand" (up-charge of course). I'm not advocating anybody change anything they're currently doing--it's just that sewn seats and "blind rands" are nice weapons to add to your arsenal of tricks, especially if you choose to avoid any/all vertical fasteners to make your heel-seat (e.g. pegs, nails, tacks, staples, etc.)

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#357 Post by dearbone » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:53 am

Jon,

Just a little above in this thread, Valeriy posted a picture of a heel seat whip stitch done with the slack(half part without needle/bristle) end of thread left in the inside(bottom),I don't see any pumps,He hammers on every stitch he makes to get rid of pumps,mind you he stitched straight rather than on slant which will bring the thread too close to the edge for my liking,leaving the slack end of the thread on top has it,s own ups and downs,too much thread exposure for one,You got me thinking why some shoe makers or Hasluck choose to put the slack end on the inside,I am wondering if it has something to do with being right or left handed shoe makers,Which ever method is fine,the idea is to avoid using tacks/nails to secure the seat and not worry about rust.

Nasser

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#358 Post by janne_melkersson » Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:41 am

Al,
I think the same method is called a "German seat" in london and are mostly used on heavy stuff like riding boots, do you know anything about that?

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#359 Post by das » Fri Nov 12, 2010 8:26 am

Janne,

I know a "German" seat as the welt going all the way around the back. Interestingly the old gent in Lobb's cellar who I discussed it with in '78, recognized it as something from his grandfather's day he said, was a German Image

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#360 Post by janne_melkersson » Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:36 am

Al,
while thinking about it and if I recall right and as you said the welt is going all the way around at the back. It is trimmed close and then stitched through welt and sole, probably the same way as you describe above with the special awl.

I meet an old man in the cellar at Loobs in the middle of the 90's he was from Italy and so worn out he could hardly walk the stairs and the other guys was afraid that he would fall down the stairs. I just wonder if they have an old man there now!

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#361 Post by athan_chilton » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:34 pm

There's a chance I might be in a position to visit Lobb's in London, as I will be passing through & staying over one night on my way home from Budapest in mid-April. I also hope to visit the Vass shop in Budapest...

andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#362 Post by andre » Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:43 am

Hello,
I'm trying to build a last like the J&M with some individuals.

\image {C:\Users\Andre\Desktop\7184}

For the beginning I'm planing cemented styles on this and I like have some advice on this.
What substance should have the (leather)insole? My guess would be 4-5mm (Sorry I do not understand iron!, may be someone can explain?)
However my real question is coming up now:
As you can see the center of the heel is about 7mm
below the threadline. I have no experience with such an last, so it comes up to my mind, after insoling and lasting the upper, stifner and lining is coming may to 3.5 mm thickness, which will be also reduced again in sanding a little, whatever. So the ball should be up by (7-3.5 mm) 3.5 mm from the feather edge, right? Now what I'm going to do with it? Shall I sand it off or shall I go on building the heels. Grinding off means I always kill the insole (or do I need a much thicker Insole?) Going on building the heels, I see quite some problems there to balance them or not? Usually I use lasts only with 3mm deepness, so I'm a little bit nervous.
So somebody might a have an idea?
Thanks
Andre

(Message edited by Andre on November 20, 2010)

(Message edited by Andre on November 20, 2010)

(Message edited by Andre on November 20, 2010)

andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#363 Post by andre » Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:10 am

Sorry, no pic, I do not know this either, may it's understandable without pic...

andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#364 Post by andre » Sat Nov 20, 2010 9:58 am

I think I got it!
11924.jpg

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#365 Post by romango » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:41 am

Andre,

Here is a chart that shows the 'iron' relationship.
11929.jpg
11929.jpg (72.48 KiB) Viewed 1224 times


I'm not sure if I am understanding your question but...

The insole adds thickness to the bottom of the last along the entire length. So you just keep the measurements the same. The heel should still be the same distance from the ground with the insole attached.

You can allow for sanding by just making sure that your end heel height leaves you with the toe spring of 11.5 (in your picture).

Hope this makes sense.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#366 Post by dw » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:42 am

Andre,

First...good on you for getting the photo.

Second, I am not sure I understand the problem. I don't see how the bottom radius will affect the mounting of an outsole or heel or balancing either one. The bottom of a shoe--the outole--will have a radius based on the radius of the last. Similarly the heel seat will be radiused according to the heel of the last. Then the heel stack will be leveled over the course of several lifts. This means that the bottom of the shoe does not have to be leveled before mounting the outsole.

So why are you grinding on the insole?

The more times I read your question the less I am sure I understand. Sorry about that.

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andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#367 Post by andre » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:14 am

Rick,
thanks - now I can talk...

DW,
sorry for the lousy pic, but it may be usefull
11931.jpg
11931.jpg (8.53 KiB) Viewed 1224 times

, I guess I get a price for this crape...
Anyhow the three color lines are upper, stifner and lining after lasting. Now the ball will be still much higher in this last, will that be a problem, like I said, may be need a sanding or I can just go ahead with building up the heels and layer by layer level without big problem?
I don't know if this makes sense to you, I'm just scared because I have never used a last with such a high heel ball?
Thanks

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#368 Post by dw » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:49 am

Andre,

Yes, that's more or less what I figured. But all lasts are shaped like that to one degree or the other.

Put on the outsole. If you really feel you have to, you can level the outsole a little bit before you start building the heel.

Then, build the heel one layer at a time leveling each layer as you go. The first layer you will take the most off; the second layer less and each subsequent layer will get closer to level.

Shouldn't be problem.

If it's still bothering you I suppose you could flatten the last under the heel a little bit but in most cases the leather you pull over the last and insole will be thick enough to create a kind of leveling all by itself.

On most of my lasts, sometimes I actually thin down the edge of the insole around the heelseat so that the thickness of the liner, stiffener, and upper won't get so thick it is actually concave.

Hope that makes sense.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--HCC Member

andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#369 Post by andre » Sat Nov 20, 2010 12:04 pm

DW,
thanks, that makes sense.
------------------------------------
But all lasts are shaped like that to one degree or the other.
--------------------------------------
you have no idea what kind of lasts I have - you will consider them as bricks \Image

Thanks
Andre

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#370 Post by dw » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:00 pm

Andre,

I got to thinking about this...

If you use a 2 ounce lining leather (maybe a little light but well within range) you get .8 millimeters. Adding a heel stiffener of say 6 iron is another 4.5 mm. And an upper leather of 3 ounce adds 2.25 mm.

So...when you add them all up you get 7.5 millimeters--more than enough to bring your heel seat area up to level.

Am I not correct?

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andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#371 Post by andre » Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:48 pm

DW and @all,
yes I was thinking in the same direction. Usually I get preformed (to my last)stiffners, there are only 1.5 mm, so that's why I'm missing something.
Said so, the idea about this project was to make a light weight shoe. I wanted to use soft milled upper 1.2, lining sheep 0.8 so stiffner of 1.2 would be enough. Than use something like 3-3.5 mm insole only, than add EVA mid-sole with 10mm (and here I guess, I get screwed, if no correction would be done), and finally thin leather outsole with layer lift, together 8mm so I get my 18.00 as per last. Here pic of what should be the concept - certainly not matching my last, only idea!
12411.jpg

I have choosen this last because I liked the bottom profile, it certainly promises comfort. Now let's forget about with what substances I wanted to work, anybody has an idea how to make this project happened? I need a light weight shoe and I don't want to sand the last at this stage.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#372 Post by artzend » Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:18 pm

Andre

I don't understand why you feel the need to sand your last. You can sand the midsole if you feel a need to sand something, after it is attached. Then put your sole on that. I would think that 1.5 was a bit light for a men's stiffener, and sheep lining will wear out quickly, kid or goat is not much heavier, but very much better for wear.

Tim
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andre

Re: Insoles and inseaming

#373 Post by andre » Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:54 am

Tim,
Ok, I guess my worries should not be problem and I take your advice. Do you think that insole with about 3.5 is ok? Because I really want to save weight, but on the other hand I don't want screw up the shoe for some few grams extra.
Andre

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#374 Post by artzend » Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:23 am

If it's a stuck-on construction that should be fine. You will find that because of the materials you use, this pair will feel pretty light anyway.

The only way you are going to know is to make them.

Tim

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#375 Post by courtney » Mon Dec 06, 2010 1:03 am

I'm still confused,
I read here Nasser and others use 6 oz. insoles,
do you still use 1/8" welt?

For example I want to use 5-5.5 oz. upper, then toe puffs and heel stiffeners and lining. Then if I add an 1/8" welt isnt that way too much empty cavityspace to have to fill up?

Whats the General depth of accepted filler space?

I know D.W. uses a really thick insole so I can see how you might be able to cut your feather deep enough to bury some of that, but with an 1/8 to 3/16" insole I dont get it.

Nasser? Anyone?

is the Warkov the only deal going these days?

Thanks,
Courtney

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