Insoles and inseaming

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janne_melkersson
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#276 Post by janne_melkersson »

DW,
the iron should be hot but not so hot you burn the leather. I use a heel iron shown in the photo. I just do this on the heel seat on the rest of the shoes it is easier to get sharp corners.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#277 Post by lancepryor »

DW:

The edge of the heelseat is the same thickness as the edge of the insole, since that has been cut for the feather.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#278 Post by dw »

Lance,

Ah, Got it! Thanks.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#279 Post by dw »

Janne,

Thanks for the photo.

Do you ever iron the uppers? To get rid of pin-wrinkles or to tighten up the leather a little? I keep hearing about people doing that but I've never seen it done and was never taught how to do it.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#280 Post by janne_melkersson »

DW,
Sometimes I use a hair dryer to get rid off wrinkles caused when folded back the vamp before lasting the toe stiffener. On some leather it is hard to get rid of them without heat and sometimes I even use the iron but never direct on the grain always through greaseproof paper.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#281 Post by janne_melkersson »

......greaseproof paper to protect the grain.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#282 Post by noonan »

Only time we ran insoles through router/bevellor was when making high heeled wo's shoes, so heel would seat correctly. Bevel set is determined by thickness of heel covers, counter, etc. Then insoles are molded. Then depending on construction, they go to binding or wrapping (Say for open backs/open toes (slings). Then the insole tacker better be right on when he tacks board to last.
All this stuff is engineered and proven through trials before any production work, and watched closely by all the skilled shoe workers.
I never made a western boot, but looking at the pitch and heel height on some of your work, I bet it wouldn't hurt to put a little bevel into heel seat area.
Tim
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#283 Post by relferink »

DW,

Possibly a bit off topic but during my apprenticeship I've used an iron on upper leather to get stubborn creases out. (I'm not particularly proud to admitImage)
Only on dark leathers and if your only other option would be trowing everything out and starting again, iaw; when you have nothing to loose. I have not used it to sharpen the heel seat as is currently discussed.

The iron was electric, made specifically for the purpose. I was looking for a picture but can't find one, trying to describe it, it looks like an egg on a stick with an electric cord coming from the handle. To gauge the temperature I was taught to spit on the iron when hot and listen for the sizzle, not unlike what you do for your heel and burnishing irons. The iron is hot enough to burn the leather if you don't keep it moving and you wet the leather before ironing.
As I said before, only us it as a last resort.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#284 Post by 1947redhed »

I'll suggest using a silicon pressing sheet available at yardage stores and online from fabric sellers like JoAnn's rather than grease proof paper (which we Americans probably know as wax paper) when ironing on uppers. I'm afraid the wax or other coating on the paper could discolor the upper. Silicon pressing cloths usually are rated to above 400 degrees--hotter than heel irons are likely to hit. They aren't cloths but a thin sheet of pure silicon and have no coatingor pattern to transfer to the upper.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#285 Post by janne_melkersson »

Georgene,
good advise to use the silicon stuff instead of the grease proof paper. The version of it we have in Sweden don't contain wax.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#286 Post by jon_g »

Parchment paper might be closer to what Janne is using, it doesn't contain wax.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#287 Post by dw »

Janne, Rob...

Thanks for the tips.

Well, that's a big puzzle for me. Although I've seen books that advocate lasting the toe stiffener at the same time that you last the shoe, I was not taught that way. And I cannot see how you could get a smooth transition...smooth lines from heel to toe...especially if you're also adding midliners. It seems almost impossible to skive heel stiffeners, midliners and toe stiffeners so that they blend into each other with no lumps or bumps.

So like you, Janne, I last the shoe, them roll back the vamp and add the toe stiffener. That really works. I can scrape and blend the stiffeners in to the lining and the lines of the last such that you can't see the transition and you can't feel it either.

But rolling back the vamps creates those wrinkles in the vamp. I've never ever been entirely comfortable rolling back the vamps even though it usually turns out alright for boots.

If you last a shoe dry,especially a light coloured one, how can you wet the vamps and pull the wrinkles out? How can you chase those wrinkles away if the leather is not only light coloured but light weight?

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#288 Post by romango »

DW,

In Marcell's shop I lasted the toe all in one step. Much attention was given to preparing the toe puff, skiving and thinning to perfection. Side liners were carefully skived too.

It worked fine. Having said that, I prefer to add the toe puff as a separate step, as I did in your shop. It allows an additional opportunity to shape the toe.

I know that Marcell does this too where the toe shape is more defined, such as the Budapester model.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#289 Post by mack »

Hello All,
Just a few thoughts from my perspective.
In my early days I worked in the orthopaedic trade and we used a lot of kidskin and some of it wasn't the greatest quality so we did use a warm iron to get rid of wrinkles, but on the work I do now and with the leathers I get to work with
I've never found it necessary and would be very wary of using it.I'm surprised Jan does it as he uses a lot of nails to last the back and looks to have it smooth anyway,but we all have our little extra touches we like to do.
I also last the back first and then add the side linings and toe puff then last the vamp.
I've been told that lasting the front with puff and linings was the old traditional english method and that the back then front method was the continental ( european ) way but this seems lost in time and all the makers I know last back then front,personal choice I guess.Which ever way its done I agree with Rick that great attention must be given to the skiving of linings and toe puff
I dont find too much trouble with wrinkles from pulling the vamp back, sometimes certain leathers seem prone to it but on the whole they are ok.
I don't leave the vamp pulled back all the time. I would lay it back over when the puff is dry until I'm ready to last it over.
On the insole debate I was originally taught to keep things square but as I discovered some of the west end tricks I found to get some of the shapes desired you need to bevel and slant the cut to suit what look your trying to achieve. On a heavy boot I keep things pretty square
but on a light dress shoe undercutting in some areas will get you the shape you want but you do need a dressy last for this, if you only have standard last shapes I thing its better to only slightly bevel the insole.
Mack
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#290 Post by janne_melkersson »

DW,
I am mostly using box calf, Freudenberg succesor Weinheimer Leather or the French tannery DuPuy. Both have light colored skin and there is no problem lasting dry, if the upper is done right that is.

".... rolling back the vamps creates those wrinkles in the vamp." Yea, but those wrinkles are only on the grain and if they don't disappear when lasting I use heat. The leather mentiond above react to heat and the wrinkles crimps and disappear.

Some leather simply don't react to heat and if I got a leather like that I wet it on the flesh side with luke warm water and mostly I get rid of the wrinkles.

I heat up my irons with liquified petroleum gas which is a clean gas and could also be used on uppers without the risk of getting soot on it. As I mentioned before a hair dryer could be used too. In both cases be careful it is a risk to burn the leather if the heat stay to long on the same spot. If the leather don't react right away water could be sprinkled on the grain to avoid the risk of burning the leather.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#291 Post by janne_melkersson »

Jim,
I started my career in the orthopaedic trade too and the shop was like an old manufacture. Some guys only lasted the shoe and the next guy continued the work. If the laster didn't last with sharp edges the shoe came back to him and he had to relast them. The master was from Germany and he hated everything that was not according to his standard and the worst thing that could happend was to be called to come to his office. You bet that everybody learnt a trick or two and the edges ended up sharp.

I am only using the hot iron on heavy stuff like riding boots but it is a nice trick which gives a little extra touche if necessary.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#292 Post by relferink »

DW,

Lasting using "the all in one" approach does take practice (what doesn't in our gentle craft) but it's really not as hard as it looks. It's one of those intimidating propositions, yet once done you wonder what all the fuss was about. As a disclaimer I have to say that I normally also fold back the vamp. As Rick mentioned your preparation is crucial as mistakes are unforgiving and nearly impossible to correct. Additionally I have to point to Janne's post above
a big part of the lasting is done with the hammer a couple of hours after the heel is lasted when the stiffener is about to dry.
This holds the key to getting your smooth transitions, rather than rasping and scraping the linings on an already dry counter you "mold" the transition into the semi moist counter. With practice this transition will be smoother than what we do now.


If you last a shoe dry,especially a light coloured one, how can you wet the vamps and pull the wrinkles out? How can you chase those wrinkles away if the leather is not only light coloured but light weight?

Don't wet the vamp on the light colored shoes unless you are absolutely sure you won't get stains by testing on a scrap piece. A way to minimize wrinkles is to last and let it sit for a couple of days before folding back the vamp and applying to toe, also as Mack pointed out do not have the vamp folded back unless you are working on the toe.

One last tip on light leathers (colour and weight) and wet counters / toe boxes. Insulate the back of the vamp and quarters with rubber or all purpose cement well before lasting so it's dry by the time you last. It will prevent any moister seeping out of the counters/toe box from causing stains on your shoes.

Janne,
How is the Weinheimer leather in quality and to work with compared to the old Freuenberg? Freudenberg used to have "orthosoft", a beautifully tanning, even suitable for challenging lasts. Is Weinheimer anything like it?

Rob
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#293 Post by mack »

Jan,
Nice to speak with you,I have enjoyed reading your posts and I think we have a lot of work methods in common and I like the work of yours that I have seen.Ithink the way of one man doing part of the shoe was commom in the orthopaedic trade and some of the skills I learned then have been very useful to me but when I went to work in the west end a whole new world opened up to me and I'm still learning about it now.
If you see Pelle please give him my best wishes
Mack.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#294 Post by janne_melkersson »

Mack,
nice talking to you and thanks for the compliment. I remember Pelle told me about you as beeing one of the best in the West End trade. I once saw a pair you have made and I agree with Pelle, stunning craftmanship.

Pelle introduced me to the West End trade when he still was working at Mr Schneiders shop. Like you a new world opened up to me and I saw styles and making methods I didn't even know existed and of course I'm still learning about it.

Pelle is back in the orthopaedic trade working in an shop in Stockholm where he both work as a closer and maker. I hope to see him later this spring and I will give him your greetings.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#295 Post by janne_melkersson »

Rob,
I think the Weinheimer box calf is close to the old stuff and they got some new leather which seems to be good too.

They have three different box calf leather and the one I have used is simply called Box calf. The other is Box calf Maro and Box calf Ceinture.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#296 Post by dw »

Rob, anyone...

When you were working here in the US, did you ever come across any leather offered by domestic suppliers that was comparable to the Freudenburg? Did you eve find anything that you really liked, whether it was like the Freudenburg or not?

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#297 Post by relferink »

Jan-Erik,

Thank you, that's helpful and I'll give it a try the next opportunity I get. I'm hoping to either run into them on a show or even better just go down to see them next time I come through Frankfurt to get the full picture.

DW,

I have not found any leathers in the US that I would say are comparable to Freudenberg, I did find a calf skin or two that I really liked, almost like Freudenberg that I picked it up at a closeout, source unknown. Considering that much of the skins from that place were Mexican and South American I would guess these skins may have been as well but I couldn't swear to it. Searching lead to a closed down finder, a dead end of sorts.

I did really like the roo from Sheridan when I tried it. I had not worked with kangaroo before and was pleasantly surprised. I know you are very familiar with it so nothing new there.

Rob
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#298 Post by valeriy »

Everything, hello! I do a calcaneal part so.
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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#299 Post by jesselee »

Valeriy,

That's just absolutely beautiful craftsmanship.

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Re: Insoles and inseaming

#300 Post by producthaus »

What is this black backpart on the bottom of the insole?
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