Insoles and inseaming

[dearbone]

Fred, Thank you for for taking the time to tell me (us) about your work, It sounds interesting doing variety of leather work. I understand what you say about tecnophobia, But remember how hard it is to find information or resources about the boot or shoe makers of the past. I post the secrets of my trade here, so that one day it might benefit the coming boot or shoe makers, And above all Fred, it brought me in contact with wonderful folks like you.
Nasser

(Message edited by dearbone on November 15, 2007)

[hidesmith]

I am forever inventing methods that I later find someone else has beaten me to. Years ago, I invented a method of construction that I later found to be common, called faire-stitched. It was about the same time I started inseaming using a thin inner sole - about 6 oz - and rolling it as I stitched through it, the upper and the welt. Then, someone, I think it might have been Al, told me they had done it before. I am interested in knowing if this method has a name, as well as what kind of historical provenance it has. What eras might it have been used in? Any information?

I am also interested in finding out about the historical provenance of stab closing of uppers. I think it was Rusty that told me he had found historical evidence, but his area at that time was 17th century shoes. Is there any evidence for other eras?
Thanks,
Bruce

[das]

Bruce,

Stabbing to close uppers goes right the way back, however it's not very common 17thc-18thc on men's uppers, where most are un-lined waxed-calf. "Round-closing" (butting edge to edge) is stronger.

[hidesmith]

Al,
Any information about the rolled inner sole?

B

[dearbone]

5791.jpg

I made shoes years ago for parks Canada, the shoes were from a sunken ship in 1760. The seams had to be sewn edge to edge (butting).
Nasser

[das]

Bruce,

Ya lost me on "rolled insoles". Please explain. If I am parsing out your meaning here, based on archaeological finds, welted insoles (insoles for welted work) in the 1600s-1700s fall into three primary types according to how the feather and holdfast were made (terms in quotes are my own conventions--not period):

1) The first type, 1600s both sexes--1700s mostly women's, the insole is rather light weight--say 5-6oz.--and the edge was folded, making a right-angle "L" bent-up lip all round, forming the holdfast through which the inseaming is done. The sewing stitch basically stabs straight through the base of this "L" folded lip. These insoles were usually "under-cut", i.e. the border was a little inboard of what we'd call the feather-line of the last to control the welt width (early lasts retained the Medieval radiussed edge, that is no sharp featherline corner).

2) The second type, common for both sexes, but mostly in men's work was the "plumb, under-cut" edge. The insole, fashioned from more familiar thickness leather--say 5 iron--was cut plumb all around, and a little inboard of the featherline. IOW, just cut straight around--no feather at all. With this as well as the former type, this design controls the distance of the revealed welt (if the insole was cut full out to the width of the last, afterwards the welt would shelve out too far. The further inboard, the closer the finished sole edge and less projecting the welt, etc.). This type was holed all round with a split-hold, the awl entered the flesh surface, and exited in the middle of the substance at the edge.

(In types 1 & 2, as you would imagine, the wearer walks over the insole because it's under-cut).

3) The third type, which I've not seen in great numbers before c.1750 for either sex, and not on women's work until 1800s (because women's shoes were rarely welted, or randed, after c.1750), is the "sloping feather". The insole was cut plumb, full out to the featherline of the last (lasts post c.1660s generally have defined featherlines like today's). The bottom of the insole was beveled away (combination of skiving away just a little leather, but mostly tapping it down into shape, while damp, with the pane of the hammer) into a sloping shape at the edge. It extends to the featherline of the last, but tapers down in substance at the very edge. The "sloping feather" acted as a spring and to reinforce the vamp so that it didn't ply or flex at a sudden sharp angle (where the uppers tended to break) in wear (see, Rees:1813 on original philosophy/purpose behind the "sloping feather"]. The holdfast is made a little inboard from the feather, creating in effect a raised ridge, which was sewn through like we do for hand-sewn welted today--the awl enters the inner border of the holdfast, dips partway through the substance, then rises and exits at the high-end of the feather's slope.

BTW, the modern "stair-step" feather/holdfast (I call it) composed of a series of right angle cuts with sharp corners everywhere, used by many hand-sewn boot and shoemakers today, I'm thinking was a borrowing from turnshoe-making, or perhaps very, very early machine-sewn turnshoe/welted making, because I do not recall seeing sharp angled, "stair-step" feathers/holdfasts until mid-late 1800s. These sharp-cornered cuts, IMO, weaken the insole leather, because they remove far too much material, and create such sudden variations in substance, that the insole leather tends to break along the lines. At best, the feather tends to curl up, or even roll inside the footwear. I'm a "sloping feather" guy myself, when it comes to hand-sewn welted, but will do the goofy earlier types when required, only for repros.

[paul]

Interesting Al.

Is the Rees citation something you could cut and paste for us? I don't quite get it.

Maybe a cross section drawing someone?

Paul

[das]

Paul,

Rees' explanation of why the "sloping feather" is better, versus the plumb "under-cut" welted insole, is in his book in text, not pictures. In haste I suggest you look at the on-line Rees posted at Marc Carlson's website, or there might be a link to it from ours, I can't recall.

Oh if I had the fancy cameras and drawing software you guys do *sigh*

[dw]

Al,

Why sigh and pine away longing for the eminently attainable?

Refurbed Fuji F31's are available for probably around $200 and are a heck of a deal with really good image quality even in low light. And a Canon S3 (which is a last-but-one older model)may only be a few buck more. Tilting LCD, supermacro (you can actually have the lens toughing the object you're shooting) and a very good Programmed mode make it an easy and powerful camera to use.

And as far as drawing programs, over in Eclec-tech I point you to a very good drawing program that is totally free.

I would think that with a decent drawing tablet--like a mouse except you use a pen shaped pointer--you would be able to make sketches of your tools and artifacts and store those sketches digitally as easy as pie.

Of course, if you want to post or store photos or illustrations you find in books or old manuscripts you'll need a scanner too.

Then you'll need a cell phone....

Pretty soon you'll actually have enough tools to bravely go forth into the 21st century.

Tight Stitches
DWFII--Member HCC

[das]

DW,

*mutter* *grumble* *sniff*

Tell ya what, help me find a ribbon for my 1938 Royal typewriter and my Remington adding machine, as well as a few GT rated tubes for my GE radio, and maybe then we can talk about all this gimmicky stiff

117Z6 GT
3Q5 GT
1H5 GT
1A& GT
1N5 GT (2 needed)

I also need a wooden "Z" lightening bolt knob for a 1935 Zenith radio...

[amuckart]

Al,

This is horribly off-topic, but I couldn't resist and I can't PM you I don't know about typewriter ribbons, sorry.

In order:
117Z6 GT http://cgi.ebay.com/117Z6GT/G-117Z6-GT/G-NOS-SYLVANIA-TUBE_W0QQitemZ250180856505 QQcmdZViewItem
117Z6 GT http://cgi.ebay.com.hk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290167287892&ih=019&catego ry=7275
1H5 GT http://www.radiolaguy.com/tubes30s-70s.htm (also 1A7)
http://cgi.ebay.es/TUBE-1H5-GT-GENERAL-ELECTRIC-VALVE-VALVULA-70%_W0QQitemZ11017 3667839QQcmdZViewItem
1A7 GT http://cgi.ebay.com/1a7-gt-ge-3-tubes-NIB-NOS_W0QQitemZ270188088203QQihZ017QQcat egoryZ73378QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
1N5 GT http://cgi.ebay.es/1N5-GT-x-1.-BEST-PRICE-AND-VERY-GOOD-QUALITY.-SYLVANIA_W0QQit emZ220159168095QQcmdZViewItem

knob:
http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-ORIGINAL-GENUINE-ZENITH-Z-TUBE-RADIO-KNOB_W0QQitemZ1 10192737366QQihZ001QQcategoryZ7275QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

DW, if this is *too* off-topic please delete it and accept my apologies.

[marc]

Al,

Do you recall which section it was in?

http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/histshoe/Rees/rees.htm

Marc

[amuckart]

Marc,

I went looking for this when Al mentioned it. It looks to be in part 6, 'Man's Shoe'
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/histshoe/Rees/rees6.htm

"With a shoulder stick of a certain breadth mark off on the edge of the inner sole for a feather round the fore part, from the mark of the heel on one side to that on the other. The breadth of the feather must always be in proportion to the substance of the work, it must be full as wide as the thickness of the upper leather, lining, welt, and the distance of the stitching stitch from the upper; therefore the stouter these are, the wider must be the feather.

There are some that do not put a feather to a boot or shoe; but boots or shoes so made can not wear well, for the upper leather will break all round the fore part close to the sole. Because in this case the upper leather will ply short against the hard edge of the inner sole, which will cause the upper leather to break.

But in the case of a sloping feather, that lies on the inside of the upper, full as far as the stitching stitch, it will cause the upper leather to ply in a curve or sweep, which will always prevent the upper from breaking off short."

[dearbone]

First of all, I want to mention that the above illustration of the edge to edge sewing (butting) is part of series of illustrstions prepared for Quebec Regional Office by Stephen Davis, wearing apparel researcher, Archaeology Division, Canadaian Parks Service, men's shoe fashions circa 1700-1760. I just reproduced it to the period.
marc,
Thank you for the link to the above site(Rees), I wish I had seen it 20-25 years ago

[hidesmith]

Al,
The first method you listed is similar to the method I'm referring to - except that I turn my inner soles AT the egde of the last, rather than inward of it (is the edge of the last what you're calling the featherline?) Then I turn the "L" the rest of the way and cement them. Following, I fill the soles and apply the outsole. I like the method, because it maked for a thiner, more flexable sole, and a more comfortable shoe.
Sounds like I'm sort of using a sort of 17th century method when I hand sew my inseam?

DW,
Be thankful that some of us are now in the *20th* century!

Bruce

[tmattimore]

I wish I had read this before I started on these boots. I made my hold fast too wide and it was a tough one to sew. It is the first "alpine welt" I have ever done.

(Message edited by tmattimore on November 20, 2007)

(Message edited by tmattimore on November 20, 2007)

(Message edited by tmattimore on November 20, 2007)

[tmattimore]

5808.jpg

It is a triple sole boot with the outer sole pegged on. Does any one know of a source for the cleats and hobnails that go along the outer edge?
I also would have burnishied the top edge of the welt before I sewed it on. Live and learn I guess.
Tom

(Message edited by tmattimore on November 20, 2007)

[dearbone]

Tom,
I admire you for even trying to sew the alpine welt, It is hard work. I use veg tan welt leather and I bevel the top side, I trim the top of the welt with the yankee welt knife (made for the job)after stitching the soles while the welt is still wet(melow). Did you sew the top and bottom by hand?
Nasser

[tmattimore]

No I was copying an original and the soles were machine sewn. I was thinking about cutting a grove on the inside of the welt next time as I think that may allow it to pull in tighter to the last at the fold. Do you do this? The boot is a veg tan upper with the heel counter sewn on the outside
Tom

[das]

Bruce,

Yes indeedy, sounds like you've gone back in time to the 1600-1750 on those insoles, but if they do what you need....

The "under-cutting" trick merely controls the width of the welt, and therefore the finished edge.

[das]

Alasdair,

Och laddie! Great on those old valves/tubes on eBay, however I like to buy new old stock ones that have been tested. My local radio guy died last year, thus my old GE is sitting here dark, nary a glowing tube, nor a crackle of static.

[dearbone]

5812.jpg

Tom,
I have never sewn a single pair by machine, I do not own a sole stitcher, If you wish the welt to come tighter to the last, shorten the top stitch and sew the soles by the mighty hands, And lay top and bottom thread like the brick layer lays his bricks.If you bevel the top of the welt well, there would be no need to cut a groove in the welt any where. my materials were hard and I have not done this welt for a while on those boots, but I hope it will help.
Nasser

(Message edited by dearbone on November 21, 2007)

[tmattimore]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, in my shop when some one sends an original and wants it coppied I do it just like the original.
My point was if you cut a groove on the inside of the welt similar to the one you see on store bought welt if it would allow the welt to fold out at a sharper angle letting you get it in tighter to the last and upper at the feather edge. You would sew thru the groove and when you pull up the stitch it give the welt a more defined turning radius
Tom

[dearbone]

Sorry if I offended you, Happy Thanks giving to you and all the people I met on this forum. I look upon you as a family.
Nasser

[das]

Nasser,

No offense on my end, and yes, we're quite an on-line family; but if you think we're collegial and warm here on the monitor with words and pix, you have seen nothing until you come to one of our annual HCC meetings. I'm convinced we all "went to school together" in some past life, if you go for that analogy.

Speed to your awl!